It's an IFV, but the turret's turned the other way, so the front looks longer.
Wrong thread though. It's India's FICV from the L&T facility. Someone has to move it to the right threat.
@Milspec
It's an IFV, but the turret's turned the other way, so the front looks longer.
Wrong thread though. It's India's FICV from the L&T facility. Someone has to move it to the right threat.
@Milspec
India’s Infantry Combat Vehicles project may just die from apathy
With the Army failing to convince the bureaucracy to push the project through, it will float in an eternal orbit.
The Indian soldier’s wait for a modern Infantry Combat Vehicle that will carry him into battle protected from enemy fire, continues without an end in sight. A `60,000 crore project, one of the largest indigenous programmes, to build 2,610 Future Infantry Combat Vehicles (FICVs) continues in endless rounds of discussions since October 2016.
Ministry of Defence (MoD) bureaucrats are believed to be uncomfortable over footing an estimated `800 crore bill for funding the prototype building. They have instead suggested that the shortlisted private sector firms fund the building of two prototypes out of their own pockets. The firms say they can’t fund the project, buy or develop the technology because there is no guarantee they will get an order. The problem, as a defence industry official familiar with the project says, is the MoD’s inherent distrust of the private sector.
“The bureaucracy is uncomfortable funding a programme where there is no prototype in sight,” says a defence industry official familiar with developments. And so the chicken and egg impasse continues. The FICV public-private sector partnership was launched in 2006 to replace the Army’s 1980s vintage Soviet-origin BMP-2 ICVs which equip the Army’s 49 mechanised infantry battalions, each with 51 BMP-2s, gradually reaching the end of their service lives.
Their replacement was a 20- tonne tracked FICV with a three-man crew capable of carrying seven fully-armed troops into battle. It would also be equipped with an automatic grenade launcher and an anti-tank missile launcher. The government would fund 80 per cent of the prototype developed by two shortlisted private sector firms.
The FICV was part of three high profile ‘Make’ projects for the Indian Army, the two others being to develop Tactical Communications Systems and Battlefield Management Systems, intended to encourage private sector participation in the defence sector. It would also address a gap in wholly indigenous defence products and kickstart local product development and, hence, found an enthusiastic backer in the late Manohar Parrikar.
As per the revised schedule in 2015, orders for the first FICV prototypes were to have been placed in early 2017 but the project has hit a limbo after Parrikar’s departure from the MoD in early 2017. There is now talk within the MoD to reboot the project with a fresh Expression of Interest (EOI), the third one of its kind since 2009.
With the Army failing to convince the bureaucracy to push the project through, it will float in an eternal orbit. This suits import lobbies and foreign equipment manufacturers as dead indigenous projects brighten the chances. Especially ones where foreign firms own Intellectual Property Rights of equipment and allow their products to be assembled in India as ‘Make in India’ programmes.
(Courtesy of Mail Today)
With the Army failing to convince the bureaucracy to push the project through, it will float in an eternal orbit.
The Indian soldier’s wait for a modern Infantry Combat Vehicle that will carry him into battle protected from enemy fire, continues without an end in sight. A `60,000 crore project, one of the largest indigenous programmes, to build 2,610 Future Infantry Combat Vehicles (FICVs) continues in endless rounds of discussions since October 2016.
Ministry of Defence (MoD) bureaucrats are believed to be uncomfortable over footing an estimated `800 crore bill for funding the prototype building. They have instead suggested that the shortlisted private sector firms fund the building of two prototypes out of their own pockets. The firms say they can’t fund the project, buy or develop the technology because there is no guarantee they will get an order. The problem, as a defence industry official familiar with the project says, is the MoD’s inherent distrust of the private sector.
“The bureaucracy is uncomfortable funding a programme where there is no prototype in sight,” says a defence industry official familiar with developments. And so the chicken and egg impasse continues. The FICV public-private sector partnership was launched in 2006 to replace the Army’s 1980s vintage Soviet-origin BMP-2 ICVs which equip the Army’s 49 mechanised infantry battalions, each with 51 BMP-2s, gradually reaching the end of their service lives.
Their replacement was a 20- tonne tracked FICV with a three-man crew capable of carrying seven fully-armed troops into battle. It would also be equipped with an automatic grenade launcher and an anti-tank missile launcher. The government would fund 80 per cent of the prototype developed by two shortlisted private sector firms.
The FICV was part of three high profile ‘Make’ projects for the Indian Army, the two others being to develop Tactical Communications Systems and Battlefield Management Systems, intended to encourage private sector participation in the defence sector. It would also address a gap in wholly indigenous defence products and kickstart local product development and, hence, found an enthusiastic backer in the late Manohar Parrikar.
As per the revised schedule in 2015, orders for the first FICV prototypes were to have been placed in early 2017 but the project has hit a limbo after Parrikar’s departure from the MoD in early 2017. There is now talk within the MoD to reboot the project with a fresh Expression of Interest (EOI), the third one of its kind since 2009.
With the Army failing to convince the bureaucracy to push the project through, it will float in an eternal orbit. This suits import lobbies and foreign equipment manufacturers as dead indigenous projects brighten the chances. Especially ones where foreign firms own Intellectual Property Rights of equipment and allow their products to be assembled in India as ‘Make in India’ programmes.
(Courtesy of Mail Today)
I think periodically 3rd time similar report has been published, why do they do such things every 6 months to send out some signal to govt?
oh i thought its already dead Battlefield Management System Development Program to Shut Down | NewsClick
We have a few we tow to Expo's every year. Somehow we believe that will magically convince other countries that are desperate for Made in India hardware to order them, while we spend another 10 years testing them.
We have a few we tow to Expo's every year. Somehow we believe that will magically convince other countries that are desperate for Made in India hardware to order them, while we spend another 10 years testing them.
Situation is such that if a foreign country buys them, we ll also buy them.
Case in point - bullet proof vests .
Same may not be applicable here as it's not use and throw.. Needs maintenance, spares and update s..
Seems like once it's outdated we convince ourselves to buy it.
I read about LCA in 2001, had goose bumps.. Rest self explanatory.
Indian Army Set to Deploy 200 Armoured Fighting Vehicles With Guided Missiles Along Pakistani Border
Is this credible news... and which is this wheeled platform DRDO TATA whap/Kestrel ?... Has Whap / Kestrel passed all trials ?
Is this credible news... and which is this wheeled platform DRDO TATA whap/Kestrel ?... Has Whap / Kestrel passed all trials ?
That's a pretty sizable order. This is good news.
Read the whole thread :
This guy makes an excellent point about having a 120mm turret on the WhAP. I think the Japanese already have something like this. The Type 16 fire support vehicle :
Also DRDO claims there is a 120mm mortar turret ? That would be great.
The RFI mentions IR suppressive camo. I wonder what would that look like, we probably won't be able to tell just be looking at it without IR sensors. This is my personal favorite camo so far :
WhAP offers improved platform stability and ride comfort due to the use of hydro-gas suspension. The vehicle is also fitted with a Central Tire Inflation System(CTIS), it also uses a winch mounted on the body :
WhAP offers improved platform stability and ride comfort due to the use of hydro-gas suspension. The vehicle is also fitted with a Central Tire Inflation System(CTIS), it also uses a winch mounted on the body :
Clueless guy. The RFI is to replace BRDM-2. These fancy requirements will be filled by FICV.
WTH is that ?!?!Clueless guy. The RFI is to replace BRDM-2. These fancy requirements will be filled by FICV.
Looks like a little rat.
Didn't know we had something like this. Although a WhAP sized vehicle wont be a good fit for recon role.
And Now, Indian Army Wants 200 Wheeled Armoured Vehicles For Pak Border
By Shiv Aroor, Dec 05 2019.
US Army Stryker AFVs at the 2009 Yudh Abhyas exercise in Babina, India.
Elevated tensions between India and Pakistan this year have compelled the Indian Army to sidestep an endlessly meandering force modernisation program for an urgent acquisition of fighting vehicles capable of cross-country defence across the border plains in two states facing Pakistan. The requirement is the latest in a slew of ‘small’ purchases the Army has been forced to look at in the wake of India’s air strikes in Pakistan’s Balakot in February this year.
With bigger plans for modern infantry vehicles taking much more than their time, the Indian Army announced this week it is looking for a rapid infusion of wheeled armoured fighting vehicles (AFV) that it wants to deploy in the Pakistan-facing border sectors of Punjab and Rajasthan to augment and support in-service tank regiments as a combat support platform. Unveiling plans on a competitive bid next July, the Army says it wants 198 wheeled (8×8) armoured fighting vehicles for the reconnaissance and support roles, armed with guided anti-tank weaponry.
Much lighter and transportable than main battle tanks like the T-90/72, the Army has been looking to create wheeled US Army-style AFV units that would provide military planners with a low maintenance arsenal of vehicles that’s quick to air-deploy if necessary in combat-ready configuration. These vehicles would be transportable by C-17 or C-130J in India. The Army hasn’t had any trouble acquiring large numbers of tanks (last month it ordered 464 more license-built T-90S/SK tanks from the Ordnance Factory Board), but has failed to make any headway in the wheeled AFV space. Now it wants to move as quickly as possible to acquire a fleet that’s super-easy to deploy and brings to the fight excellent firepower and armour, cross-country flexibility and a logistics footprint that doesn’t require it to be taken away from the battlefield if necessary.
The Army is seeing itself forced into a raft of such limited stop-gap purchases after watching with dismay as larger long-term capability programs meander endlessly without result.
Literature released by the Army announcing its interest says the vehicles ‘will be operationally required to operate cross-country across the developed sector in terrain interspersed with rivers and canals. The vehicle should be provided with high mobility, adequate armour protection and armament configuration suitable to destroy enemy ranks and undertake local protection‘
While the Army has indicated it would prefer to use the Buy Indian (IDDM – Indigenously Designed, Developed & Manufactured) route of the Defence Procurement Procedure, it has left the door open to vendors looking for another route as long as they make a case. On the face of it, potential vendors could include Tata Motors, Mahindra Defence, Reliance Defence, L&T and Kalyani Defence. If the latter route is allowed, it would open doors to platforms that could include the U.S. General Dynamics Stryker (which has been on offer at various points before) and the Israeli Eitan, among others. As things stand, though, the Indian Army has already been testing a fully indigenous platform for two years.
While the Indian private sector has made dramatic headway in the combat, light strike and mine-protected vehicle space, the most visible 8×8 wheeled armoured fighting vehicle on the Indian landscape currently is the Indian Kestrel, a platform developed jointly by the DRDO and Tata Group following a competitive selection. The Kestrel, projected as being as capable as the U.S Stryker, is said to have been developed in 18 months and has been demonstrated at the DefExpo show in Goa. The vehicle has been in user trials this last year, with the Indian Army sanctioning a limited initial order. Tata is looking to export 100 Kestrels to UN missions as well, and recently received clearance to do so.
The Army wants substantial armament on its new wheeled AFVs, including two twin launchers for 4-km range fire and forget ATGMs, provision for a man-portable ground ATGM launcher in addition to the vehicle mounted ATGM, provision of internal stowage of eight additional missiles, a 30mm cannon with 7.62mm coaxial machine gun (both controlled remotely if possible), six-tube smoke grenade dischargers to deploy 81mm smoke grenades.
The occupant capacity of the hull is 12 members. The driver in combat mode has visibility through 3 periscopes and a display catching vision through front and rear view cameras, with day and night vision. The back to back seating layout allows firing through the 3 gun ports on each side, with two big hatches for patrolling. The fuel tanks are placed outside the crew compartment for additional safety. The 8X8 independently suspended vehicle has high power-to-weight ratio for mountain terrains. The vehicle can accommodate different variety of weapon stations and turrets as the application demands.
The Indian Army’s separate plans for a Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) have meandered for over a decade without a contest even being triggered. Procedural delays and significant divergences on configuration have kept the program largely in the realm of paperwork since 2009, though the sheer size of the proposed requirement — nearly 3,000 vehicles to replace the Indian Army’s BMPs — has at least sustained interest from India’s private sector firms, including Mahindra and Mahindra, Reliance Defence, L&T, Tata Motors and Kalyani Defence. Indications are that a formal contest could kick off in the next few months.
Indian Army soldiers examine a Stryker vehicle during Exercise Yudh Abhyas 2019 at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, USA.
And Now, Indian Army Wants 200 Wheeled Armoured Vehicles For Pak Border
By Shiv Aroor, Dec 05 2019.
US Army Stryker AFVs at the 2009 Yudh Abhyas exercise in Babina, India.
Elevated tensions between India and Pakistan this year have compelled the Indian Army to sidestep an endlessly meandering force modernisation program for an urgent acquisition of fighting vehicles capable of cross-country defence across the border plains in two states facing Pakistan. The requirement is the latest in a slew of ‘small’ purchases the Army has been forced to look at in the wake of India’s air strikes in Pakistan’s Balakot in February this year.
With bigger plans for modern infantry vehicles taking much more than their time, the Indian Army announced this week it is looking for a rapid infusion of wheeled armoured fighting vehicles (AFV) that it wants to deploy in the Pakistan-facing border sectors of Punjab and Rajasthan to augment and support in-service tank regiments as a combat support platform. Unveiling plans on a competitive bid next July, the Army says it wants 198 wheeled (8×8) armoured fighting vehicles for the reconnaissance and support roles, armed with guided anti-tank weaponry.
Much lighter and transportable than main battle tanks like the T-90/72, the Army has been looking to create wheeled US Army-style AFV units that would provide military planners with a low maintenance arsenal of vehicles that’s quick to air-deploy if necessary in combat-ready configuration. These vehicles would be transportable by C-17 or C-130J in India. The Army hasn’t had any trouble acquiring large numbers of tanks (last month it ordered 464 more license-built T-90S/SK tanks from the Ordnance Factory Board), but has failed to make any headway in the wheeled AFV space. Now it wants to move as quickly as possible to acquire a fleet that’s super-easy to deploy and brings to the fight excellent firepower and armour, cross-country flexibility and a logistics footprint that doesn’t require it to be taken away from the battlefield if necessary.
The Army is seeing itself forced into a raft of such limited stop-gap purchases after watching with dismay as larger long-term capability programs meander endlessly without result.
Literature released by the Army announcing its interest says the vehicles ‘will be operationally required to operate cross-country across the developed sector in terrain interspersed with rivers and canals. The vehicle should be provided with high mobility, adequate armour protection and armament configuration suitable to destroy enemy ranks and undertake local protection‘
While the Army has indicated it would prefer to use the Buy Indian (IDDM – Indigenously Designed, Developed & Manufactured) route of the Defence Procurement Procedure, it has left the door open to vendors looking for another route as long as they make a case. On the face of it, potential vendors could include Tata Motors, Mahindra Defence, Reliance Defence, L&T and Kalyani Defence. If the latter route is allowed, it would open doors to platforms that could include the U.S. General Dynamics Stryker (which has been on offer at various points before) and the Israeli Eitan, among others. As things stand, though, the Indian Army has already been testing a fully indigenous platform for two years.
While the Indian private sector has made dramatic headway in the combat, light strike and mine-protected vehicle space, the most visible 8×8 wheeled armoured fighting vehicle on the Indian landscape currently is the Indian Kestrel, a platform developed jointly by the DRDO and Tata Group following a competitive selection. The Kestrel, projected as being as capable as the U.S Stryker, is said to have been developed in 18 months and has been demonstrated at the DefExpo show in Goa. The vehicle has been in user trials this last year, with the Indian Army sanctioning a limited initial order. Tata is looking to export 100 Kestrels to UN missions as well, and recently received clearance to do so.
The Army wants substantial armament on its new wheeled AFVs, including two twin launchers for 4-km range fire and forget ATGMs, provision for a man-portable ground ATGM launcher in addition to the vehicle mounted ATGM, provision of internal stowage of eight additional missiles, a 30mm cannon with 7.62mm coaxial machine gun (both controlled remotely if possible), six-tube smoke grenade dischargers to deploy 81mm smoke grenades.
The occupant capacity of the hull is 12 members. The driver in combat mode has visibility through 3 periscopes and a display catching vision through front and rear view cameras, with day and night vision. The back to back seating layout allows firing through the 3 gun ports on each side, with two big hatches for patrolling. The fuel tanks are placed outside the crew compartment for additional safety. The 8X8 independently suspended vehicle has high power-to-weight ratio for mountain terrains. The vehicle can accommodate different variety of weapon stations and turrets as the application demands.
The Indian Army’s separate plans for a Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) have meandered for over a decade without a contest even being triggered. Procedural delays and significant divergences on configuration have kept the program largely in the realm of paperwork since 2009, though the sheer size of the proposed requirement — nearly 3,000 vehicles to replace the Indian Army’s BMPs — has at least sustained interest from India’s private sector firms, including Mahindra and Mahindra, Reliance Defence, L&T, Tata Motors and Kalyani Defence. Indications are that a formal contest could kick off in the next few months.
Indian Army soldiers examine a Stryker vehicle during Exercise Yudh Abhyas 2019 at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, USA.
And Now, Indian Army Wants 200 Wheeled Armoured Vehicles For Pak Border
Biggest Make in India programme for Indian Army dropped
MoD to take de novo look at $8.5 B combat vehicle procurement under different category
December 13, 2019
By Vishal Thapar
Photo(s): By Tata
A mock-up of a tracked combat vehicle fielded for the aborted FICV programme
The biggest Make in India programme for the Indian Army to produce 2,600 Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicles (FICVs) at an estimated cost of 60,000 Crore ($8.5 B) under the Make-1 procedure has been dropped.
"Development Agencies could not be shortlisted as the financial and technical criteria were found to be subjective in the selection process," Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik stated in a written reply to a question in the Lok Sabha on December 11.
The mega procurement case, which is in the works since 2009 to replace the Soviet vintage BMP-IIs, has been pushed back to the Ministry of Defence for a de novo look for re-initiation under a different procurement category, SP's Land Forces has learnt from official sources.
While "subjective criteria" is the official version cited for the derailment, sources have revealed that it was an attempt by a competing company to alter the terms of the competition which tripped the programme.
The FICV procurement was approved by the Ministry of Defence in 2015 under the Make-1 category, under which the Ministry was to have funded 80 per cent of the development of prototypes by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and two other private companies shortlisted as Development Agencies through a selection process. The development cost to the Government was estimated to be about 3,000 Crore.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi inspecting an FICV model at L&T's Hazira facility in Gujarat earlier this year
While the OFB would be assured of an order, the other two Development Agencies were required to compete for a tender after the development of prototypes.
The companies in the fray were Larsen & Toubro, Pipavav (later Reliance), Titagarh Wagons, Tata Motors, Bharat Forge, Tata Power SED and Mahindra. Tata Motors and Bharat Forge teamed up for a consortium bid.
"One of the companies in contention made an unsolicited offer to develop the prototype on its own cost. Following this, two other contenders too offered to do the same. These three companies sought a migration of the competition to the Make-2 category - in which no funding is required from the Government for the development of a prototype - with an invitation to the same set of companies to compete," an official disclosed.
Those running the programme felt a proposal which involved the saving of 3,000 Crore to the Goverment could not be overlooked, and send the case back to the Ministry of Defence for re-consideration.
But the Ministry refused to "migrate" an ongoing programme to a different procurement process, nor restrict itself to the same set of bidders, and has instead decided to consider the FICV programme de novo, holding that the older process was no longer valid.
This effectively means that the procurement has been pushed back to Square 1, where the case would have to be moved afresh under a different category, and perhaps with revised Army Staff Quality Requirements (ASQRs).
The ASQRs drafted in 2015 while initiating the Make-1 programme sought a compact, tracked and amphibious FICV, not heavier than 18-to-20 tons to enable transport into combat zones. It also specified a requirement of firing anti-tank guided missile at a range of 4 km, and space for a crew of three and eight combat-kitted infantry soldiers.
Biggest Make in India programme for Indian Army dropped
MoD to take de novo look at $8.5 B combat vehicle procurement under different category
December 13, 2019
By Vishal Thapar
Photo(s): By Tata
A mock-up of a tracked combat vehicle fielded for the aborted FICV programme
The biggest Make in India programme for the Indian Army to produce 2,600 Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicles (FICVs) at an estimated cost of 60,000 Crore ($8.5 B) under the Make-1 procedure has been dropped.
"Development Agencies could not be shortlisted as the financial and technical criteria were found to be subjective in the selection process," Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik stated in a written reply to a question in the Lok Sabha on December 11.
The mega procurement case, which is in the works since 2009 to replace the Soviet vintage BMP-IIs, has been pushed back to the Ministry of Defence for a de novo look for re-initiation under a different procurement category, SP's Land Forces has learnt from official sources.
"Development Agencies could not be shortlisted as the financial and technical criteria were found to be subjective in the selection process," Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik stated in a written reply to a question in the Lok Sabha on December 11
While "subjective criteria" is the official version cited for the derailment, sources have revealed that it was an attempt by a competing company to alter the terms of the competition which tripped the programme.
The FICV procurement was approved by the Ministry of Defence in 2015 under the Make-1 category, under which the Ministry was to have funded 80 per cent of the development of prototypes by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and two other private companies shortlisted as Development Agencies through a selection process. The development cost to the Government was estimated to be about 3,000 Crore.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi inspecting an FICV model at L&T's Hazira facility in Gujarat earlier this year
While the OFB would be assured of an order, the other two Development Agencies were required to compete for a tender after the development of prototypes.
The companies in the fray were Larsen & Toubro, Pipavav (later Reliance), Titagarh Wagons, Tata Motors, Bharat Forge, Tata Power SED and Mahindra. Tata Motors and Bharat Forge teamed up for a consortium bid.
"One of the companies in contention made an unsolicited offer to develop the prototype on its own cost. Following this, two other contenders too offered to do the same. These three companies sought a migration of the competition to the Make-2 category - in which no funding is required from the Government for the development of a prototype - with an invitation to the same set of companies to compete," an official disclosed.
While "subjective criteria" is the official version cited for the derailment, sources have revealed that it was an attempt by a competing company to alter the terms of the competition which tripped the programme.
Those running the programme felt a proposal which involved the saving of 3,000 Crore to the Goverment could not be overlooked, and send the case back to the Ministry of Defence for re-consideration.
But the Ministry refused to "migrate" an ongoing programme to a different procurement process, nor restrict itself to the same set of bidders, and has instead decided to consider the FICV programme de novo, holding that the older process was no longer valid.
This effectively means that the procurement has been pushed back to Square 1, where the case would have to be moved afresh under a different category, and perhaps with revised Army Staff Quality Requirements (ASQRs).
The ASQRs drafted in 2015 while initiating the Make-1 programme sought a compact, tracked and amphibious FICV, not heavier than 18-to-20 tons to enable transport into combat zones. It also specified a requirement of firing anti-tank guided missile at a range of 4 km, and space for a crew of three and eight combat-kitted infantry soldiers.
Biggest Make in India programme for Indian Army dropped
I simply don't get it, why is the IA so reluctant on buying the Kestrel.
Sad state of affairs.Looks like the MoD is filled sith dumbos.