Jammu & Kashmir live updates: GOI remove all provisions of Article 370
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
I'm out of my wit to understand how you can outwit your opponents by walking into our enemies diplomatic snare. When w emean Kashmir is our internal affair, we mean the land and its people are subjects of the Indian constitution and does not concern any country or organizations that does not owe allegiance to Indian constitution. Law is not someones charity that is doled out at his or her discretion. The rights and privileges of the people are guaranteed by the provisions enshrined in the Indian constitution. Civilizations are marked out by the adherence to their own constitution and laws therefore.
You are correct in pointing out that we shouldn't consider it as a war between Muslims and Hindus, but definitely is a war between Radical Islamists and Indian republic. My family is not i Muslim or Hindu & If it was a war between Hindus and Muslims, then my family members or thousands of Sikh soldiers, Buddhist soldiers or Muslim soldiers etc would not have gone to Kashmir and fought that war. They went there because it is a war against India, their motherland.
The issue in Kashmir is fundamentally caused by Sunni radical Islamist ideology and has nothing to do with "threat to their identity" as you played it out. What exactly was "threatening their identity" in 1989 when terrorism started? Article 370 was in place, no one can buy land or even take a government job in Kashmir and they had the highest level of autonomy among any Indian state. Kashmir valley was 95+ Kashmiri Muslim majority in 1989. The desire to establish a theocratic Sunni Islamic state was the driving force behind the start of terrorism, not threat of domination from any other culture/religion. It was purely based on religious extremism, not on ethnic nationalism as evident from the ethnic cleansing of Non Muslim Kashmirs from the valley. Does that mean we should threaten their identity? Certainly not, we never did that nor should we ever.
Militancy in Kashmir can only defeated by correcting some mistakes that Indian government committed in the past. It failed to curb the spread of Sunni Islamist radicalism into Kashmir starting from late 70s and 80s. When soviet war was going on full swing in Afghanistan and "Jihad" become romanticized in the region, Indian state made no precautions and later suffered the consequences. Sunni Islamist organizations have thousands of schools, seminaries and enough financial capability to provide resources, both ideological, material and recruits for a long sustained militancy. This infrastructure need to be dismantled and then only India will be in a position to end militancy in Kashmir. Banning of Jammat Islami is a good step, but without taking over thousands of schools and seminaries it run in Kashmir, next generation will be radicalised. Hopefully with getting rid of 370 and with law and order under central government, I am hopping that goverment will use the law to degrade the organized infrastructure of Sunni Islamist groups that provides cover for militancy. Greatest enemy is not that few hundred militants with guns, but the infrastructure provided by these over ground separatists.
Well written but wasted on the wrong person or rather wrong ideologue
You could have simply asked
" Where was the illusion of liberalism when the Islamic state of Kashmir was in existence and when thousands of minorities ie Hindus were raped killed and hounded out of Kashmir "
I guess napping or celebrating possibly
Anyways the big truth is
The so called liberal , sickular etc feed on the miseries of others , they are like saints in their convictions and arguments, but bloodsuckers and parasites when it comes to their real actions on the ground.
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Btw they are never actually on ground. Only sipping wine in their full air conditioned rooms
Identity? The word kashmir comes from sanskrit word , so who is hijacking/erasing whose identity? It is Islamists are who have hijacked kashmir's identity. They have systematically wiped out the native kashmiri hindu populace and trying to erase them from history. Your post is full of convenient half lies.
Thats total rubbish , India does not see this as a religious fight but the fanatics in kashmir do. If India did see this from religious angle then even kerala which has the oldest mosque in India must be the first target.
Fantasize ? as usual you are just throwing lot many verbs without any facts. Its the religious fundamentalists in kashmir who are fantasizing about conquering India and bringing under its control. To top that you seemed to selectively missed the fact that these ppl committed genocide on kashmiri pandits & threw them out of the valley.
Fight is not for against a section of ppl or religion , fight is for the way we want to live , freedom to believe or practice in what we want like we have done for for past 2000 years.
Just bcos these ppl changed their religion does not give them absolute right over the land. Its like you changed your religion one fine day and decided to throw rest of your family members from the house. Nope house dint change the religion it stayed the same will stay the same for eternity its just you who changed the religion, you cannot throw out others or claim extra ordinary rights bcos you have majority.
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@ Jetray @ Volcano
I was recently watching and listening to an elderly srilankan Thero wistfully rue how glorious Buddhist India was and wrongfully it was stolen from them and at same time in a sombre but foreboding voice warns his flock to beware of the new threat for Buddhism brewing in the north( read Jaffna and North east Lanka). Identities are not narrative that changes in a vacuum, long historical processes shape and molded the present identities of the Indian society. I dare say our current identities are not because we had a choice in its shaping , but we are merely a latest itinerant in that historical process. I'm not a Hindu Nair by choice but by the accident of birth and similarly the Kashmiri Muslims in the valley are not what they are because they had choice or role in that shaping that historical process. While my identity was not my choice, it was my choice to hold it dear, nurture it and celebrate those various check points in that historical processes that resulted in my identity. It is this very keen awareness of historical processes, which makes me alert any real or perceived attempts to dilute my historical identity, be it language imposition, or the last years protests in Shabarimala or the jallikattu agitation ( which many of us thought was an alien intellect imposing its moral precepts on us)
I'm glad many of us see the struggle in Kashmir as some of kind of religious crusade, but it is also disconcerting that in the same breadth we seem to lay the blame at the door step the fact that Kashmiris in the Valley, at the least majority today, are Sunni Muslims. Just like the Sinhalese Thero, many of us simply are unable to accept that Kashmiri Muslims in the valley did not chose that identity for themselves. but are merely, like you and me, the happenstance of a historical process in which they had no say. Indians of the current generation clearly cannot undo those historical processes that shaped the identities of the present society, but what we can do is set new frameworks that can resolve the conflict arising from the clash of identities. Clash of identities is not new to India and certainly not an exclusive preserve of the politics of the Kashmir valley. Sikh organization butchered Hindus in the Punjab and Hindus have slaughtered Sikhs in Delhi and other cities by their thousands( Now i know may will claim SIkhs were killed by congress mobs, as if congress walas were not Hindus)Although not on the same scale. Marathas led by the shiv sainks have attacked people of south Indian origin and forced them to migrate in the 60's. Similarly Tamils and Kannadigas have attached and forced people from the each other state to leave their adopted state.
In Hegel's world view, the primary task of a state is conflict resolution. As societies increasingly organized under the pressure of the increasing population, new identities arose and clustered together within geographical expenses and these identity clusters invariably came into conflict with other identities clusters. In order to resolve these conflicts , as Hegel calls, the benevolent state arose. While the nation state should strive to resolve conflicts and draft laws and policies that furthers such endeavors, it must be careful not get drawn into the identity conflict, least of all appear to be picking sides. This is why the Indian state adopted a secular, non partisan and all inclusive constitution, because this constitution allowed the state to engage the various identity clusters within the society,without the the threat of being partisan. This is why it is important that the kashmiris be given the politics rights that all social groups in India enjoy, without any prejudice to their current cultural identities or the historical processes that led to it. We have to remember that Kashmir is the not the only identity conflict resolution that the Indian state is engaged in and there will be many more that will arise in the future. The state needs a powerful instrument which gives confidence to the various identity groups that the state will manage these conflicts in a fair, just and without prejudice to either parties involved in the conflict. The secular and all inclusive constitution is that historical instrument that we have provided ourselves to aide in current and future conflict resolution.
P:S - Talking about historical processes in Kashmir. Everyone knows SIkandar Bhutshikan as one of the greatest Islamic iconoclast in Kashmir's history. Giving Sikandar close competition was King Harshadeva or Harsha of the Utpala dynasty of Kashmir. Kalhana in his Rajatarangini attributes credit to Harsha for the destruction of several Hindu and Buddhist places of worship. Infact Harshadeva has the dubious distinction of having commissioned a royal office, called the " devotpaatana-nayaka", for destroying Hindu places of worship and acquiring their assets for the state.
You are addressing the wrong issue here. It's not your usual identity based issue like Telangana issue, himachal pradesh, or the north east.. If Pakistan ceased to exist, Kashmir could be tackled purely as an internal issue.., I think the current Government's approach is to handle Pakistan first, and while doing this to have a firm grip on the security machinery in JK; Hence, the union territories.
No what I'm trying to throw light on how Indian state will resolve her future conflicts. A just and all inclusive constitution in all its letter and spirit is the key. If you scratch the surface and go down to the bare bones of the societies, all identities have the same fear and insecurities and state will need to navigate them firmly without giving into the temptation of picking sides...
straw mans argument, you have made up your mind and trying create proof for it. You are not only deviating from the topic, but also trying to connect unrelated stuff with each other.
Applying "Occam's razor" corollary, when you make such a long convoluted argument , it only means you are trying to sell BS.
You take social conflict on its face value; with a postulate that "what is evident is real". That is a naive view of parroting that Sikhs killed Hindus, Hindus killed Sikhs, Kannadigas and Tamils hated each other, Shiv Sainiks attack on non-Maharashtrians, etc.
You fail to understand or is delibrately ignoring the hidden motive of the forces behind creation of such chaos. Have you heard of "(New) Order out of Chaos" and the process of "Problem, Reaction, Solution"? This is what the British did, then handed over the baton for chaos, loot and destruction creation in the hands of Islamic theocratic state of paXtan and Congress in India. Over time, State level regional powers learnt it from Congress and played the same game to fulfill their aspiration for powers.
You are deriving conclusions out of events, much like the Sickulars and the Liberandoos prestitutes do. The Commies and most dumb political parties first create such disturbances with the intention to derive mileage out of confusion.
@jetray @ Golden_Rule
Pakistan and India and its rulers essentially inherited the state of British India with all its socio-political fault lines and fissures. Britain did not sow seeds of regional and social identities, but merely utilized existing fault lines as part of laying the foundation for their state in India. 200 odd years ago it was British Historian James Mills who in his seminal work " A History of British India", neatly divided India's political history into Hindu period, then the conquest of Islam and then the advent of the Europeans, esp the British. Except for minor changes in its structure and content, Post colonial India still adheres to this flawed and misleading categorization of native history( greatest irony being the Hindu nationalist seem to biggest votaries of the Mills communalization of Indian history).
Post colonial state building in India, much like the historical narrative that shaped in the period, revolved around what French Philosopher Ernest Renan called the forging of a nation by a deliberate act of Forgetfulness. India deliberately acted to forget her fault lines and fissures, products of her historical processes, by brushing events under the carpet, by passing affirmative actions that compensated the communities at the receiving end of this historical processes( as recompense for forgetting historical injustice). Unfortunately what we see today is that the historical memories are being revived with zeal and those fissures and faultlines are being revisited and state will not be able to control, as much as it tries, as to which fissures will be revived. To celebrate certain historical memories, as correcting an historical error, and brushing other inconvenient memories as disconnected events is nothing but living in denial.
Pakistan and India and its rulers essentially inherited the state of British India with all its socio-political fault lines and fissures. Britain did not sow seeds of regional and social identities, but merely utilized existing fault lines as part of laying the foundation for their state in India. 200 odd years ago it was British Historian James Mills who in his seminal work " A History of British India", neatly divided India's political history into Hindu period, then the conquest of Islam and then the advent of the Europeans, esp the British. Except for minor changes in its structure and content, Post colonial India still adheres to this flawed and misleading categorization of native history( greatest irony being the Hindu nationalist seem to biggest votaries of the Mills communalization of Indian history).
Post colonial state building in India, much like the historical narrative that shaped in the period, revolved around what French Philosopher Ernest Renan called the forging of a nation by a deliberate act of Forgetfulness. India deliberately acted to forget her fault lines and fissures, products of her historical processes, by brushing events under the carpet, by passing affirmative actions that compensated the communities at the receiving end of this historical processes( as recompense for forgetting historical injustice). Unfortunately what we see today is that the historical memories are being revived with zeal and those fissures and faultlines are being revisited and state will not be able to control, as much as it tries, as to which fissures will be revived. To celebrate certain historical memories, as correcting an historical error, and brushing other inconvenient memories as disconnected events is nothing but living in denial.
In India and this ENTIRE WORLD , It is only Islam which is intolerant of others and Actively Seeks to Conquer the Whole Country one day
They have problem all over the world, if we see history all other ppl have matured and progressed to being practical but some ppl are still stuck in medieval age barbarism.
Some smart guy quoted "When you are the problem, you wont see the problem" that holds good for your thinking. Your are talking as if only India has this problem and continuously produce BS unrelated to the topic.
Irony is that its not we are in denial , you are in denial of the history and want to continue the barbarism. It's like a bully when confronted they start rambling/ranting on how world is unjust...etc. What you mentioned is a classic case of withdrawal symptoms.
In very very very very simple terms India follows a policy of live & let live and when there are thugs who want to take advantage of it , they will be dealt severely.
By the way let me reiterate for all practical purpose I am nearly an atheist I will condemn barbarism whichever side indulges in.
Sure go ahead and shoot the messenger and lets pretend by ignoring the message it will go away. The truth is a lot of us, like our friend two posts above, think Islam and Muslims are the problem and culling them is the only solution, but wont admit it for the sheer irrationality this presents.
Tell me one place where Muslims are living in peace?? Including Muslim countries.
Country. Problem with
India. Hindus
SL/Myanmar Buddhists
West. Christians
Sunni. Shias
Shias. Sunnis
China. Athiests
You are seeing only what you wish to see not what is actually fact. An optical illusion.
Islam is a similar idea to nationalism. This is why an apostate is killed, the same way that a traitor is killed by modern nation states.
The problem is that every Muslim is pulled by two competing nationalisms. Most will chose the older. So they prefer to be poor and impoverished under a Muslim tyrant than well fed and comfortable under a non Muslim dispensation. Their instinct for loyalty will always be to Muslim rule.
This will not change for in the near future ....
So ...personally I give two figs for Kashmiris...you cannot soothe or comfort them to stop being ungrateful a$$....es.
However, if India gives up the Kashmir valley, little independent Kashmir will be taken over by Pakistan and therefore China. The defence implications and the threat to the Indian heartland is immense. That will be the end of India.
As per the freedom house index
Pakistan s Free Kashmir is less than half as free as Indian Kashmir under lockdown .
I will find the link when I get time
There is a weird global nexus between Islam and the extreme left.
They are completely opposite ideologies.
Most of the things the left champions like equal rights for women, homosexuals, minorities are considered reason to kill in Islam
I fail to understand this partnership.
The left completely turns a blind eye to the inhuman treatment of women, the killing of homosexuals,eradication of minorities, even the advocacy of slavery in Islam.