LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

My Understanding of LCA Attempt-2

To follow up to my earlier discussions on LCA, I did some more reading and also tried to understand the posts and articles of Indranil, Nilesh Rane, Surya and Maitya (courtesy lockdown).

I had always been perplexed with (aerodynamic) design choices of LCA and had no satisfactory answer. Though I hasten to add that all the articles of Indranil, Nilesh, Maitya (& posts) are correct but they are written by an expert and hence does not address, in detail, some questions which layperson like me finds perplexing. That is to say that they are dealing with Algebra while we are struggling with Sita Kaun thi?

The primary grievance against LCA is that it is inadequate and small little aircraft with short radius of action 300km-500km. Just like a Mig-21 so why did we not go with upgraded Mig-21.

Second is that LCA has not achieved what F-16 and Mirage did 40 years ago, hence why did we not adopt the design philosophies of Mirage 2000/F-16 rather than trying to re-invent the wheel?

So there goes nothing.

LCA design made 3 major choices, which have always been perplexing and rather debated, being:-

1. Delta Wingform vs Conventional Swept wing
2. Fly by Wire vs Conventional Controls
3. Use of Composites

The more I study the issue, the more I realise that these choices were forced upon DRDO-ADA and were not really a matter of free option. People offering simplistic solutions have not understood the problems/choices facing ADA.

But before we discuss the design choices, let’s have a look at the Dilemmas of the Political leadership and IAF Brass. My understanding is as follows:-

1. We did not go for upgraded Mig-21 as Soviets would not have co-operated. Further enlarging the nose of Mig-21s to put in a better radar would have given us a completely different aircraft with range even shorter than Mig-21, if we had used Mig-21 technology base.

2. We did not reverse engineer or go in for design philosophy of F-16s or Mirage 2000 as we did not have the “Engine”! No one was offering us 100kn engine.

3. Unfortunately the experts, even ex-IAF pilots look at things in compartments. It is easy to say upgrade the Mig-21 as if Soviets were their FILs with Garlands in their hands. Additionally, Soviets fighter aircraft had shit kicked out of them in 1982 Yom Kippur Israel-Syria war and we had to prepare ourselves against Pak and China acting together (perhaps using Western Equipment). We also knew that next Gen Soviet aircraft to Mig-21 being Mig23 were no match for western equipment. Even Mig-29 until recently has been very short ranged & maintenance heavy aircraft. Only when RD33/93 became powerful enough in this decade, its able to carry enough fuel using TWO Engines.

4. Rajiv Gandhi wrangled the most modern engine at the time being GE F404 (75kn) from Ronald Reagan and we set upon the task of developing a fighter equal to F-16/Mirage 2000 around that engine as we had no other choice. Rajiv Gandhi Got us:-

1. World most modern (small) Engine GE F404 75kn - USA
2. FBW – USA Martin Mareitta
3. Design – BAE, Dassault - UK, France
4. Composites and Wings construction – Italy - Alenia, Germany
5. Radar – Ericssion Sweden

And now using these building blocks we had to develop an aircraft which would be equal to F-16/Mirage 2000 and will not get its *censored* kicked like Syria in Yom Kippur 1982 and Argentina in Falklands 1982.

Intention of Indian DRDO & IAF Brass :-

We always intended to develop an aircraft way more advanced than F-16/Mirage 2000 with “more range” We went about portraying it as little toy aircraft to avoid attracting attention during Cold War Era and subsequently to avoid getting the programmed derailed by competitors. Remember our polite non-threatening Dr. Abdul Kalam working on sounding rockets. The Aim to develop long range Ballistic Missiles was always his real intent.

My understanding is that LCA was intended to be 1000-1200km range aircraft, and even now its 800-900km range aircraft (due to weight gain)
In any case, the discussion is all the more pertinent because for LCA Mk-2 we are retaining the same Wingform with Canards.

To understand the design issues facing ADA (which was to develop a aircraft equivalent to F-16/Mirage 2000 while using GE F404 – 75kn engine), we have to look at some real life examples:-

F-16 vs F-16XL

F-16xl was a delta wing variant of F-16. Most of my assertions in this article are based on 300 Page NASA Study on F-16XL which is available on Internet for public. This is the most important comparison for the purpose of present article as it indicates what would happen to range and payload (and other aerodynamic features) of LCA if Delta wing is dropped for conventional swept wing to increase STR.

F-16 vs Mirage 2000

F-16 has way better engine 1 generation ahead of Mirage 2000, which is 20%-30% more powerful while being 15%-20% more fuel efficient. F-16 has more conventional swept wing vs. Mirage 2000 tailless delta wing.

(Strictly speaking F-16 is not conventional swept wing, uses leading wing root edges but we are going to keep it simple.)

Mirage III vs Mirage F1 vs Mirage 2000 vs Rafale

France developed a hugely successful tailless Delta wing Mirage III, went to conventional swept wing with Mirage F1 and then came back to Mirage 2000 again with FBW controlled tailess delta wing and moved ahead to Close coupled canard Delta Wing Rafale

Now, why the delta wing for LCA?

Did we choose a bad design and are Sticking with a bad design? Is DRDO incompetent or Lazy? Should I pick up my Phone and educate ADA-DRDO?

Answer:-LCA has Delta Wing planform controlled by FBW because it has a “longer range” than conventional swept wing inspite of the fact that Delta wing has “bigger” wing area for a “given” engine power.

Now there goes one of the biggest myths facing LCA that its wing is big & hence its draggy and “hence” LCA has a very short range of 350-500km. In fact even I thought that LCA wing with its big area was a huge draw back.

As per NASA studies on F-16XL, FBW Delta wing has 40% more range (compared to F-16, inspite of being big and (allegedly) draggy).

Refer:-

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file ... flight.pdf

Fortunately the answer lies in some basic physics. Swept wing broadly acts like a normal airfoil but the lift in delta wing is generated by “vortex” generated over the wings. (Google the rest). It is counter-intuitive and is something like, Indian Ballistic Missiles with blunt noses are more accurate than pointy missiles of Pakistan (gifted by China).

Refer:-

Flight data

Due to these vortexes, Delta Wing inspite of a Bigger Area can generate lift with lesser drag and is more efficient in not only cruise but also acceleration, transonic & supersonic regimes compared to conventional swept back wing (or even advanced swept back wing of F-16). Apart from having better ITR, more storage area, better fatigue life, lower wing loading, easier to manufacture etc.

Hence Bander FC-17 with its weak *censored* thirsty engine, limited FBW, swept back wing and aluminium body may have only 40% to 60% range of LCA (not withstanding Pak fanboy posts)

But Delta Wing does have cons like longer take off & landing runs, lower STR etc.

But why waste time over FBW? Could we not have gone for conventional controls with stable aircraft? Should I call up ADA and tell them about their stupidity as I just thought about it? Even some ex-IAF pilots say so. Why did we waste 5-15 years struggling with FBW? ADA Guys are fools!! I am more intelligent!!!

But there is a catch, about adopting Delta Wing. That pesky thing called Physics again! But anyway, unfortunately the trim drag of Delta wing tends to negate the benefits unless we use, guess….., FBW.

FBW by automatic computerised movement of control surfaces can massively reduce the trim drag penalty of Delta Wing.


Therefore if we use Delta wing without FBW then it has range shorter than swept back wing, due to trim drag. For Eg, LCA range would fall by 40%-60% and it may have a range of only 300km-500km equal to Mig-21 rather than 800-1200km equal to F-16s/Mirage 2000.

So for a “GIVEN” engine size Delta wing with FBW provides (substantially) more range and better speed, acceleration, etc.
Which means that FBW is not a matter of choice and is forced upon the designers if they want good range.

Now lets test this hypothesis through empirical data:-

F-16 vs delta wing of F-16XL, using similar engine F-16XL has either double the payload or 40% more range, (says NASA)

Another Eg. French Mirage III was delta wing without FBW. So France went to Mirage F1 conventional swept wing for better range (and other benefits off course). Thereafter when it was able to develop FBW it went back to Delta wing which had even better range. Hence, France went from Mirage F1 to Delta wing of Mirage 2000 to get better range, speed and acceleration. Conclusion LCA has 40%-60% better range than Chinese Bandar FC-17

These Bloody Yinodoos, they are surreptitious scoundrels! Cheating the world media, world powers, dalal lobby; all the while developing ballistic missiles while talking about sounding rockets.

We can test this hypothesis further. Mig-21, Mig-23Mig-29s, (earlier versions) all are very short ranged. USA had to use two engine heavies like F-15s and Soviets Su-27s with 300%-400% more power than LCA to get range and STR. Even present versions of Mig-29s which are really replacements of Mig-21s are giant beasts.

Hence, without FBW, without Delta wing, without composite body, the penalties are very heavy,. The only alternative is 2 “bigger engines” and as aforesaid we DID NOT have a Bigger engine.

We had a underpowered Marut and now underpowered Jaguar. Wonder why Jaguar was not used in Srilanka, Kargill and Balakot Revenge Strike??? It has everything the Desk Jockeys want. No FBW, No Delta and No Composites, not even a Radar, so did we want LCA to be like that?

Even though USAF rejected F-16XL because they did not want to give up sustained turn rate (among other reasons, like they may have wanted twin engines) but Note:- they did not use F-16 but had to go in for much bigger aircraft ie F-15 with almost 3x the engine power of F-16 (relative to the weight of aircraft)

Similarly (as aforesaid) Soviets had to use Mig-29 which is again is twin engine and still short ranged (compared to Mirage 2000) as it has neither FBW or Delta (nor any composites). Their Mig-23 was a dead end.

Coming back to LCA. LCA has a very advanced engine GE F404 and FBW with excellent fuel efficiency, FBW and Delta wing.

Hence, My guess is that the narrative about its/LCA short range is incorrect. Some (old) discussions on BRF which gave Relative Range of Mig-21 as 400km, LCA-500km, Mirage 2000 as 700km and F-16 as 900km are also incorrect. Perhaps they estimated the range using conventional comparison of frontal area & surface area. As aforesaid, the lift and drag on Delta plan forms is completely different and not directly comparable to swept back wing on linear basis.

My best guess is that range of Mirage 2000 & LCA MK1 is better or more than F-16 A-D, (without conformal wing tanks). Or to put it differently Israel carried out the famous Iraqi Osirak Raid at 1100km range in lo-lo-hi mode using F-16s. Both Mirage 2000 and LCA would be able to do that with weapon payload similar to F-16.

Arguing the issue from another angle:-

India did not have much choice. One suggestion was to simply develop Mig-21 further. It would not have led to much benefit and would have faced Soviet Resistance. We must remember that upgraded Mig-21s, Mig-23s, Mig-29s all, are no match to overall capabilities of Mirge 2000 and F-16s. Not to forget that we were already manufacturing Mig-21s and intended to license Manufacture Mirage 2000.

We tried to upgrade the design of Marut & did other sort of paper designs but were running into all sort of difficulties.

We were developing Kaveri engine (which was at initial stages) and with great difficulty Rajiv Gandhi wrangled GE F404. Was anyone offering bigger or better engine? Soviets were NOT offering RD-33 or Al-31!

Therefore DRDO had to design an aircraft around GE F404 (& potential Kaveri) which would successfully compete against Mirage 2000 and F-16s of the world. Hence there was no option but to adopt Delta Wing and FBW.

Off course there was a follow on two engined aircraft planned (MCA) but that’s another story.

What about the penalties of using Delta wing ? After all USA does not use it “nowdays” and neither does Russia.

Yes, there are penalties of using Delta Wing. Lets again look at F-16 vs Mirage 2000 for this.

USA retained F-16 wingform but inspite of being an aircraft in similar category of Mirage 2000, it uses 20% to 40% more powerful engine which is 15%-20% more fuel efficient ie basically a generation ahead of M53 of Mirage 2000.

Hence if we do not intend to use FBW controlled Delta wing we need a bigger engine and preferably two bigger engines which are also more fuel efficient because………..? they are bigger! Get it? (Which as aforesaid we don’t have, even today.)

Now, Inspite of F-16 bigger and more powerful and more efficient engine, still in lots of scenarios Mirage 2000 is better due to its Delta wing, like tau, response time, bank, roll rate, ITR, acceleration to supersonic regime etc.

Though the sustained turn rate is slightly poor to way more powerful F-16. Take off and landing distance is also more than F-16. Same problems are there in LCA also. As per some/lots of experts this minor difference in STR is not material compared to other benefits. Look at F-18 being used by USN, it is supposed to a pig.

Flight data

Further in any case, LCA was always intended to be followed up by 2 engine aircraft. The preliminary designs started circulating since 1990s as MCA. This would have been the follow up aircraft intended to address any deficiency in LCA.

Now coming to composites, Its incorrect to say that we had no exposure to composites.

We were already started absorbing composite technology with ALH, Dornier aircraft etc. The use of composites was essential as we had a punny engine with a big wing area, and an undeveloped aviation sector. It was an insurance against excessive weight gain, while maintaining competitive performance aganst F-16s, Mirage 2000, Mig-29s of the world.

I am not saying that LCA programme is perfect or that delay is justified but that the design choices were forced upto DRDO ADA and there was no easy way out. It was not a simple to say:-

Drop FBW, which would have led to 25%-50% range fall
Use aluminium body, which would have led to weight gain and 20% range fall
Using conventional swept wing, with aluminium body and conventional controls would have led to Mig-21 type range with bigger nose radar i.e. 20%-40% range fall

People tend to forget that the only low tech equivalent aircraft is FC-17 of China and we have no real world knowledge of its performance. But based on discussion above it will have less than half the range of LCA and very poor performance.

We (including myself) have always found LCA inadequate primarily due to short range. Seems like a punny aircraft. But based on my reading of NASA reports on F-16XL, I would like to say that LCA has range better or equal to Mirage 2000, F-16 (without conformal fuel tanks) and better than Gripen, Jaguar, early version of Mig-29 and double or triple the range of FC-17. Import dalals have been trying to create doubts in our minds by negative leaks and articles.

LCA with ferry range of 2100km in itself indicates a combat radius of 700-900km and these are early days when everything is done safely.

Compound Delta Wing

Now another minor (?) Gripe is that we use an over-complicated compound delta wing. Why did we not a simple pure delta like Mirage 2000. The answer is equally simple we were trying to decrease the limitations of Mirage 2000 and achieve a better performance.

Low swept Angle of wing (adjoining the fuselage) is intended improve low speed handling, angle of attack and to improve STR. Perhaps that is why LCA has a better STR than Mirage 2000. LCA also has a very small turning radius.

Compound Delta is well studied wing form used in Viggen and F-16XL.

Maitya & Indranil Excellent discussion is at :-

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6663&start=3200#p1774291
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6663&start=3240#p1775430
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/

LCA MK-2 and why does it use Canards

Now if all of above is right and correct, and everyone lived happily thereafter, then what about LCA Mark-2. Why does it use Canards and why did we not use canards earlier?

LCA Mk-2 can use Canards to get better STR, shorter take off and landing distance because it has access to bigger engine GE F414, which generates almost 25% more power than GE F404

So the Canards will add some penalty of weight & drag but with bigger engine, more fuel we end up getting everything like better STR, shorter take off and landing distance alongwith more fuel, hence more range, more payload as LCA MK-2 is a bigger aircraft Rafale, Eurofighter also used Canards as they have 2 engines while Gripen is a short ranged pig

LCA Mk2 will be equal to or better than F-16/21 even with conformal fuel tanks and way ahead of upgraded Mig-29s, Gripen E/NG.

Naval LCA MKI, MK-2 will not be better than Mig-29Ks as NLCA is still evolving design which is heavy and underpowered compared to Mig-29Ks. Though there is serious doubt about the availability of Mig-29Ks on Naval deck.

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... t-fighter/
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... d-options/

Future

In AMCA we have gone for a different wingform as we wanted a stealthy aircraft but we are using two engines more powerful than Single Engine of LCA MK1.

Navy which wanted to longer range has (for now) stuck with LCA MK-2 wing form and Canards. Navy may want TDEF/ORCA to match or better Mig-29k reported 1200 km combat range with 6000 kg payload


courtsey gyan
bharat rakshak


any opinion on these points

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@Gautam@bon plan
and aur bade log
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Critique of LCA is not related to it's basic design but the way the project has been managed by ADA, IAF and off late by HAL.

The intention of the Tejas project was to give India a solid 4th gen aircraft that would have formed the backbone of Indian airforce and would have replaced close to 800 Mig21 Aircrafts as upgraded area defence fighters. (Point defence fighters/Area defence fighters, in this case, is not a slur btw)

Given I am no expert, in my head; a successful combat aircraft system should create an enabling ecosystem for some key core competencies. (Again this is something that I would have expected in my own head and is not the benchmark of success or failure )

>Design expertise for Aerosystem (solid modelling, surface modelling, FEM, concurrent design,Non-linnear FEA, Mesh Generators and vector algorithms)
>Propulsion Systems (GTRE)
>Avionics and Intelligent electronics devices (Connectors, Harnesses, display systems, microcontrollers, daqs, Radars, ground electronics, control devices)
>Weapons and countermeasure systems (Missiles, Guns, PGMs, Targeting systems, MAWS)
>Manufacturing Competencies: Production design packaging, Tooling and raw material planning, PPAP's, FAI's, MVB planning, Early Launch Containment. etc.


>Design expertise: Did ADA create design expertise for Indian Aero systems? The answer to that is hard : i don't know. I don't know if ADA has created internal tools that rival UG, catia, ansys, nastran, patran, stick models, or other CAE systems. Also If ADA created an internal resource pool that can create bottom-up design system parametric scalable design system which can support concurrent design is not known to me. But ADA doesn't seems to be an organisation which can come with large number of viable designs for Indian market and doesn't seem to have any goals or aspirations to become an international player for aerostructure designs.

>Propulsion Systems> A failure, no matter how we spin it. Just a failure. Failure of design, project management, materials design, testing, instrumentation. An all-round failure of magnanimous proportions.

>Avionics and Intelligent electronics devices:: To me this is a bittersweet type of area. In some of the avionics area we did quite well, in some we were pathetic.

>Weapons and countermeasures> This is one of the areas which is not at all directly related to LCA but an offshoot of the project. The labs related to weapons development were working in tandem but not directly co-related to LCA as a whole. In my head an aircraft needs to be armed adequately and independently. Given most of the weapon systems that are qualified are of foreign origin is something that bothers me, not the project leaders in the country.

>Manufacturing competencies: Let's face reality, this is 2020. Mig21's have been *almost* phased out, so have been Mig23's, Mig27's and there is a huge gap in squadron strength. The backbone of IAF is SU30 instead of LCA. That tells us a lot about manufacturing competencies. And there is plenty of blame to go around for MoD, ADA, IAF and HAL. We can quarrel about how to appropriate the same but nevertheless the ground reality is there are less than three dozen aircraft in existence. The proof is really in the pudding.
 
>Design expertise: Did ADA create design expertise for Indian Aero systems? The answer to that is hard : i don't know. I don't know if ADA has created internal tools that rival UG, catia, ansys, nastran, patran, stick models, or other CAE systems. Also If ADA created an internal resource pool that can create bottom-up design system parametric scalable design system which can support concurrent design is not known to me. But ADA doesn't seems to be an organisation which can come with large number of viable designs for Indian market and doesn't seem to have any goals or aspirations to become an international player for aerostructure designs.
I can tell you that at least a rudimentary for of this existed in 2004 - its called GITA and is a modelling software like CAD.
not sure if they have increased this to include physics engine or Ansys engine

FEA was big topic in the IITs in 2002-2004 time frame (all of these from my engineering days)

>Propulsion Systems> A failure, no matter how we spin it. Just a failure. Failure of design, project management, materials design, testing, instrumentation. An all-round failure of magnanimous proportions.
if this is regarding engine - we got the results based on our investment is what I can say. but definitely failed to produce an engine that can power an aircraft.
 
I can tell you that at least a rudimentary for of this existed in 2004 - its called GITA and is a modelling software like CAD.
not sure if they have increased this to include physics engine or Ansys engine
Given it's not a prominent system today, fair to assume a bust.

FEA was big topic in the IITs in 2002-2004 time frame (all of these from my engineering days)


if this is regarding engine - we got the results based on our investment is what I can say. but definitely failed to produce an engine that can power an aircraft.
Not necessarily true. GTRE/ADA was not underfunded; they were funded based on their own requisition. If I ask x amount for an engine, and then fail to deliver it, I can't complain that x was not adequate.
Also the prototype that GTRE did deliver had myriad of issues other than being just underpowered.
 
Given it's not a prominent system today, fair to assume a bust.
it was prominent back then - there was specific task given to improve the system and specfic task to use that system on sensitive projects

Not necessarily true. GTRE/ADA was not underfunded; they were funded based on their own requisition. If I ask x amount for an engine, and then fail to deliver it, I can't complain that x was not adequate.
Also the prototype that GTRE did deliver had myriad of issues other than being just underpowered.
this I agree. but just a general note, GTRE itself did not grow much during the past decades. its growing now.
either a function of economy or a function or priority - the answers differ based on political inclination of folks you ask.
 
My Understanding of LCA Attempt-2

To follow up to my earlier discussions on LCA, I did some more reading and also tried to understand the posts and articles of Indranil, Nilesh Rane, Surya and Maitya (courtesy lockdown).

I had always been perplexed with (aerodynamic) design choices of LCA and had no satisfactory answer. Though I hasten to add that all the articles of Indranil, Nilesh, Maitya (& posts) are correct but they are written by an expert and hence does not address, in detail, some questions which layperson like me finds perplexing. That is to say that they are dealing with Algebra while we are struggling with Sita Kaun thi?

The primary grievance against LCA is that it is inadequate and small little aircraft with short radius of action 300km-500km. Just like a Mig-21 so why did we not go with upgraded Mig-21.

Second is that LCA has not achieved what F-16 and Mirage did 40 years ago, hence why did we not adopt the design philosophies of Mirage 2000/F-16 rather than trying to re-invent the wheel?

So there goes nothing.

LCA design made 3 major choices, which have always been perplexing and rather debated, being:-

1. Delta Wingform vs Conventional Swept wing
2. Fly by Wire vs Conventional Controls
3. Use of Composites

The more I study the issue, the more I realise that these choices were forced upon DRDO-ADA and were not really a matter of free option. People offering simplistic solutions have not understood the problems/choices facing ADA.

But before we discuss the design choices, let’s have a look at the Dilemmas of the Political leadership and IAF Brass. My understanding is as follows:-

1. We did not go for upgraded Mig-21 as Soviets would not have co-operated. Further enlarging the nose of Mig-21s to put in a better radar would have given us a completely different aircraft with range even shorter than Mig-21, if we had used Mig-21 technology base.

2. We did not reverse engineer or go in for design philosophy of F-16s or Mirage 2000 as we did not have the “Engine”! No one was offering us 100kn engine.

3. Unfortunately the experts, even ex-IAF pilots look at things in compartments. It is easy to say upgrade the Mig-21 as if Soviets were their FILs with Garlands in their hands. Additionally, Soviets fighter aircraft had shit kicked out of them in 1982 Yom Kippur Israel-Syria war and we had to prepare ourselves against Pak and China acting together (perhaps using Western Equipment). We also knew that next Gen Soviet aircraft to Mig-21 being Mig23 were no match for western equipment. Even Mig-29 until recently has been very short ranged & maintenance heavy aircraft. Only when RD33/93 became powerful enough in this decade, its able to carry enough fuel using TWO Engines.

4. Rajiv Gandhi wrangled the most modern engine at the time being GE F404 (75kn) from Ronald Reagan and we set upon the task of developing a fighter equal to F-16/Mirage 2000 around that engine as we had no other choice. Rajiv Gandhi Got us:-

1. World most modern (small) Engine GE F404 75kn - USA
2. FBW – USA Martin Mareitta
3. Design – BAE, Dassault - UK, France
4. Composites and Wings construction – Italy - Alenia, Germany
5. Radar – Ericssion Sweden

And now using these building blocks we had to develop an aircraft which would be equal to F-16/Mirage 2000 and will not get its *censored* kicked like Syria in Yom Kippur 1982 and Argentina in Falklands 1982.

Intention of Indian DRDO & IAF Brass :-

We always intended to develop an aircraft way more advanced than F-16/Mirage 2000 with “more range” We went about portraying it as little toy aircraft to avoid attracting attention during Cold War Era and subsequently to avoid getting the programmed derailed by competitors. Remember our polite non-threatening Dr. Abdul Kalam working on sounding rockets. The Aim to develop long range Ballistic Missiles was always his real intent.

My understanding is that LCA was intended to be 1000-1200km range aircraft, and even now its 800-900km range aircraft (due to weight gain)
In any case, the discussion is all the more pertinent because for LCA Mk-2 we are retaining the same Wingform with Canards.

To understand the design issues facing ADA (which was to develop a aircraft equivalent to F-16/Mirage 2000 while using GE F404 – 75kn engine), we have to look at some real life examples:-

F-16 vs F-16XL

F-16xl was a delta wing variant of F-16. Most of my assertions in this article are based on 300 Page NASA Study on F-16XL which is available on Internet for public. This is the most important comparison for the purpose of present article as it indicates what would happen to range and payload (and other aerodynamic features) of LCA if Delta wing is dropped for conventional swept wing to increase STR.

F-16 vs Mirage 2000

F-16 has way better engine 1 generation ahead of Mirage 2000, which is 20%-30% more powerful while being 15%-20% more fuel efficient. F-16 has more conventional swept wing vs. Mirage 2000 tailless delta wing.

(Strictly speaking F-16 is not conventional swept wing, uses leading wing root edges but we are going to keep it simple.)

Mirage III vs Mirage F1 vs Mirage 2000 vs Rafale

France developed a hugely successful tailless Delta wing Mirage III, went to conventional swept wing with Mirage F1 and then came back to Mirage 2000 again with FBW controlled tailess delta wing and moved ahead to Close coupled canard Delta Wing Rafale

Now, why the delta wing for LCA?

Did we choose a bad design and are Sticking with a bad design? Is DRDO incompetent or Lazy? Should I pick up my Phone and educate ADA-DRDO?

Answer:-LCA has Delta Wing planform controlled by FBW because it has a “longer range” than conventional swept wing inspite of the fact that Delta wing has “bigger” wing area for a “given” engine power.

Now there goes one of the biggest myths facing LCA that its wing is big & hence its draggy and “hence” LCA has a very short range of 350-500km. In fact even I thought that LCA wing with its big area was a huge draw back.

As per NASA studies on F-16XL, FBW Delta wing has 40% more range (compared to F-16, inspite of being big and (allegedly) draggy).

Refer:-

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file ... flight.pdf

Fortunately the answer lies in some basic physics. Swept wing broadly acts like a normal airfoil but the lift in delta wing is generated by “vortex” generated over the wings. (Google the rest). It is counter-intuitive and is something like, Indian Ballistic Missiles with blunt noses are more accurate than pointy missiles of Pakistan (gifted by China).

Refer:-

Flight data

Due to these vortexes, Delta Wing inspite of a Bigger Area can generate lift with lesser drag and is more efficient in not only cruise but also acceleration, transonic & supersonic regimes compared to conventional swept back wing (or even advanced swept back wing of F-16). Apart from having better ITR, more storage area, better fatigue life, lower wing loading, easier to manufacture etc.

Hence Bander FC-17 with its weak *censored* thirsty engine, limited FBW, swept back wing and aluminium body may have only 40% to 60% range of LCA (not withstanding Pak fanboy posts)

But Delta Wing does have cons like longer take off & landing runs, lower STR etc.

But why waste time over FBW? Could we not have gone for conventional controls with stable aircraft? Should I call up ADA and tell them about their stupidity as I just thought about it? Even some ex-IAF pilots say so. Why did we waste 5-15 years struggling with FBW? ADA Guys are fools!! I am more intelligent!!!

But there is a catch, about adopting Delta Wing. That pesky thing called Physics again! But anyway, unfortunately the trim drag of Delta wing tends to negate the benefits unless we use, guess….., FBW.

FBW by automatic computerised movement of control surfaces can massively reduce the trim drag penalty of Delta Wing.


Therefore if we use Delta wing without FBW then it has range shorter than swept back wing, due to trim drag. For Eg, LCA range would fall by 40%-60% and it may have a range of only 300km-500km equal to Mig-21 rather than 800-1200km equal to F-16s/Mirage 2000.

So for a “GIVEN” engine size Delta wing with FBW provides (substantially) more range and better speed, acceleration, etc.
Which means that FBW is not a matter of choice and is forced upon the designers if they want good range.

Now lets test this hypothesis through empirical data:-

F-16 vs delta wing of F-16XL, using similar engine F-16XL has either double the payload or 40% more range, (says NASA)

Another Eg. French Mirage III was delta wing without FBW. So France went to Mirage F1 conventional swept wing for better range (and other benefits off course). Thereafter when it was able to develop FBW it went back to Delta wing which had even better range. Hence, France went from Mirage F1 to Delta wing of Mirage 2000 to get better range, speed and acceleration. Conclusion LCA has 40%-60% better range than Chinese Bandar FC-17

These Bloody Yinodoos, they are surreptitious scoundrels! Cheating the world media, world powers, dalal lobby; all the while developing ballistic missiles while talking about sounding rockets.

We can test this hypothesis further. Mig-21, Mig-23Mig-29s, (earlier versions) all are very short ranged. USA had to use two engine heavies like F-15s and Soviets Su-27s with 300%-400% more power than LCA to get range and STR. Even present versions of Mig-29s which are really replacements of Mig-21s are giant beasts.

Hence, without FBW, without Delta wing, without composite body, the penalties are very heavy,. The only alternative is 2 “bigger engines” and as aforesaid we DID NOT have a Bigger engine.

We had a underpowered Marut and now underpowered Jaguar. Wonder why Jaguar was not used in Srilanka, Kargill and Balakot Revenge Strike??? It has everything the Desk Jockeys want. No FBW, No Delta and No Composites, not even a Radar, so did we want LCA to be like that?

Even though USAF rejected F-16XL because they did not want to give up sustained turn rate (among other reasons, like they may have wanted twin engines) but Note:- they did not use F-16 but had to go in for much bigger aircraft ie F-15 with almost 3x the engine power of F-16 (relative to the weight of aircraft)

Similarly (as aforesaid) Soviets had to use Mig-29 which is again is twin engine and still short ranged (compared to Mirage 2000) as it has neither FBW or Delta (nor any composites). Their Mig-23 was a dead end.

Coming back to LCA. LCA has a very advanced engine GE F404 and FBW with excellent fuel efficiency, FBW and Delta wing.

Hence, My guess is that the narrative about its/LCA short range is incorrect. Some (old) discussions on BRF which gave Relative Range of Mig-21 as 400km, LCA-500km, Mirage 2000 as 700km and F-16 as 900km are also incorrect. Perhaps they estimated the range using conventional comparison of frontal area & surface area. As aforesaid, the lift and drag on Delta plan forms is completely different and not directly comparable to swept back wing on linear basis.

My best guess is that range of Mirage 2000 & LCA MK1 is better or more than F-16 A-D, (without conformal wing tanks). Or to put it differently Israel carried out the famous Iraqi Osirak Raid at 1100km range in lo-lo-hi mode using F-16s. Both Mirage 2000 and LCA would be able to do that with weapon payload similar to F-16.

Arguing the issue from another angle:-

India did not have much choice. One suggestion was to simply develop Mig-21 further. It would not have led to much benefit and would have faced Soviet Resistance. We must remember that upgraded Mig-21s, Mig-23s, Mig-29s all, are no match to overall capabilities of Mirge 2000 and F-16s. Not to forget that we were already manufacturing Mig-21s and intended to license Manufacture Mirage 2000.

We tried to upgrade the design of Marut & did other sort of paper designs but were running into all sort of difficulties.

We were developing Kaveri engine (which was at initial stages) and with great difficulty Rajiv Gandhi wrangled GE F404. Was anyone offering bigger or better engine? Soviets were NOT offering RD-33 or Al-31!

Therefore DRDO had to design an aircraft around GE F404 (& potential Kaveri) which would successfully compete against Mirage 2000 and F-16s of the world. Hence there was no option but to adopt Delta Wing and FBW.

Off course there was a follow on two engined aircraft planned (MCA) but that’s another story.

What about the penalties of using Delta wing ? After all USA does not use it “nowdays” and neither does Russia.

Yes, there are penalties of using Delta Wing. Lets again look at F-16 vs Mirage 2000 for this.

USA retained F-16 wingform but inspite of being an aircraft in similar category of Mirage 2000, it uses 20% to 40% more powerful engine which is 15%-20% more fuel efficient ie basically a generation ahead of M53 of Mirage 2000.

Hence if we do not intend to use FBW controlled Delta wing we need a bigger engine and preferably two bigger engines which are also more fuel efficient because………..? they are bigger! Get it? (Which as aforesaid we don’t have, even today.)

Now, Inspite of F-16 bigger and more powerful and more efficient engine, still in lots of scenarios Mirage 2000 is better due to its Delta wing, like tau, response time, bank, roll rate, ITR, acceleration to supersonic regime etc.

Though the sustained turn rate is slightly poor to way more powerful F-16. Take off and landing distance is also more than F-16. Same problems are there in LCA also. As per some/lots of experts this minor difference in STR is not material compared to other benefits. Look at F-18 being used by USN, it is supposed to a pig.

Flight data

Further in any case, LCA was always intended to be followed up by 2 engine aircraft. The preliminary designs started circulating since 1990s as MCA. This would have been the follow up aircraft intended to address any deficiency in LCA.

Now coming to composites, Its incorrect to say that we had no exposure to composites.

We were already started absorbing composite technology with ALH, Dornier aircraft etc. The use of composites was essential as we had a punny engine with a big wing area, and an undeveloped aviation sector. It was an insurance against excessive weight gain, while maintaining competitive performance aganst F-16s, Mirage 2000, Mig-29s of the world.

I am not saying that LCA programme is perfect or that delay is justified but that the design choices were forced upto DRDO ADA and there was no easy way out. It was not a simple to say:-

Drop FBW, which would have led to 25%-50% range fall
Use aluminium body, which would have led to weight gain and 20% range fall
Using conventional swept wing, with aluminium body and conventional controls would have led to Mig-21 type range with bigger nose radar i.e. 20%-40% range fall

People tend to forget that the only low tech equivalent aircraft is FC-17 of China and we have no real world knowledge of its performance. But based on discussion above it will have less than half the range of LCA and very poor performance.

We (including myself) have always found LCA inadequate primarily due to short range. Seems like a punny aircraft. But based on my reading of NASA reports on F-16XL, I would like to say that LCA has range better or equal to Mirage 2000, F-16 (without conformal fuel tanks) and better than Gripen, Jaguar, early version of Mig-29 and double or triple the range of FC-17. Import dalals have been trying to create doubts in our minds by negative leaks and articles.

LCA with ferry range of 2100km in itself indicates a combat radius of 700-900km and these are early days when everything is done safely.

Compound Delta Wing

Now another minor (?) Gripe is that we use an over-complicated compound delta wing. Why did we not a simple pure delta like Mirage 2000. The answer is equally simple we were trying to decrease the limitations of Mirage 2000 and achieve a better performance.

Low swept Angle of wing (adjoining the fuselage) is intended improve low speed handling, angle of attack and to improve STR. Perhaps that is why LCA has a better STR than Mirage 2000. LCA also has a very small turning radius.

Compound Delta is well studied wing form used in Viggen and F-16XL.

Maitya & Indranil Excellent discussion is at :-

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6663&start=3200#p1774291
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6663&start=3240#p1775430
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/

LCA MK-2 and why does it use Canards

Now if all of above is right and correct, and everyone lived happily thereafter, then what about LCA Mark-2. Why does it use Canards and why did we not use canards earlier?

LCA Mk-2 can use Canards to get better STR, shorter take off and landing distance because it has access to bigger engine GE F414, which generates almost 25% more power than GE F404

So the Canards will add some penalty of weight & drag but with bigger engine, more fuel we end up getting everything like better STR, shorter take off and landing distance alongwith more fuel, hence more range, more payload as LCA MK-2 is a bigger aircraft Rafale, Eurofighter also used Canards as they have 2 engines while Gripen is a short ranged pig

LCA Mk2 will be equal to or better than F-16/21 even with conformal fuel tanks and way ahead of upgraded Mig-29s, Gripen E/NG.

Naval LCA MKI, MK-2 will not be better than Mig-29Ks as NLCA is still evolving design which is heavy and underpowered compared to Mig-29Ks. Though there is serious doubt about the availability of Mig-29Ks on Naval deck.

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... t-fighter/
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... d-options/

Future

In AMCA we have gone for a different wingform as we wanted a stealthy aircraft but we are using two engines more powerful than Single Engine of LCA MK1.

Navy which wanted to longer range has (for now) stuck with LCA MK-2 wing form and Canards. Navy may want TDEF/ORCA to match or better Mig-29k reported 1200 km combat range with 6000 kg payload


courtsey gyan
bharat rakshak


any opinion on these points

@Milspec@Ashwin
@BlackOpsIndia @vstol Jockey @nair@ashwin@randomradio
@Gautam@bon plan
and aur bade log
randomradio
Gautam
Ashwin
randomradio
Bon Plan

Picdelamirand-oil


I don't have the technical knowledge to comment on your answer. But what I understood is, ADA & HAL intentionally kept LCA Tejas specs information at low level but the reality is by design Tejas specs are on par with F-16 & Mirage 2000.

This is my takeaway. Correct me If I'm wrong.
 
My Understanding of LCA Attempt-2

To follow up to my earlier discussions on LCA, I did some more reading and also tried to understand the posts and articles of Indranil, Nilesh Rane, Surya and Maitya (courtesy lockdown).

I had always been perplexed with (aerodynamic) design choices of LCA and had no satisfactory answer. Though I hasten to add that all the articles of Indranil, Nilesh, Maitya (& posts) are correct but they are written by an expert and hence does not address, in detail, some questions which layperson like me finds perplexing. That is to say that they are dealing with Algebra while we are struggling with Sita Kaun thi?

The primary grievance against LCA is that it is inadequate and small little aircraft with short radius of action 300km-500km. Just like a Mig-21 so why did we not go with upgraded Mig-21.

Second is that LCA has not achieved what F-16 and Mirage did 40 years ago, hence why did we not adopt the design philosophies of Mirage 2000/F-16 rather than trying to re-invent the wheel?

So there goes nothing.

LCA design made 3 major choices, which have always been perplexing and rather debated, being:-

1. Delta Wingform vs Conventional Swept wing
2. Fly by Wire vs Conventional Controls
3. Use of Composites

The more I study the issue, the more I realise that these choices were forced upon DRDO-ADA and were not really a matter of free option. People offering simplistic solutions have not understood the problems/choices facing ADA.

But before we discuss the design choices, let’s have a look at the Dilemmas of the Political leadership and IAF Brass. My understanding is as follows:-

1. We did not go for upgraded Mig-21 as Soviets would not have co-operated. Further enlarging the nose of Mig-21s to put in a better radar would have given us a completely different aircraft with range even shorter than Mig-21, if we had used Mig-21 technology base.

2. We did not reverse engineer or go in for design philosophy of F-16s or Mirage 2000 as we did not have the “Engine”! No one was offering us 100kn engine.

3. Unfortunately the experts, even ex-IAF pilots look at things in compartments. It is easy to say upgrade the Mig-21 as if Soviets were their FILs with Garlands in their hands. Additionally, Soviets fighter aircraft had shit kicked out of them in 1982 Yom Kippur Israel-Syria war and we had to prepare ourselves against Pak and China acting together (perhaps using Western Equipment). We also knew that next Gen Soviet aircraft to Mig-21 being Mig23 were no match for western equipment. Even Mig-29 until recently has been very short ranged & maintenance heavy aircraft. Only when RD33/93 became powerful enough in this decade, its able to carry enough fuel using TWO Engines.

4. Rajiv Gandhi wrangled the most modern engine at the time being GE F404 (75kn) from Ronald Reagan and we set upon the task of developing a fighter equal to F-16/Mirage 2000 around that engine as we had no other choice. Rajiv Gandhi Got us:-

1. World most modern (small) Engine GE F404 75kn - USA
2. FBW – USA Martin Mareitta
3. Design – BAE, Dassault - UK, France
4. Composites and Wings construction – Italy - Alenia, Germany
5. Radar – Ericssion Sweden

And now using these building blocks we had to develop an aircraft which would be equal to F-16/Mirage 2000 and will not get its *censored* kicked like Syria in Yom Kippur 1982 and Argentina in Falklands 1982.

Intention of Indian DRDO & IAF Brass :-

We always intended to develop an aircraft way more advanced than F-16/Mirage 2000 with “more range” We went about portraying it as little toy aircraft to avoid attracting attention during Cold War Era and subsequently to avoid getting the programmed derailed by competitors. Remember our polite non-threatening Dr. Abdul Kalam working on sounding rockets. The Aim to develop long range Ballistic Missiles was always his real intent.

My understanding is that LCA was intended to be 1000-1200km range aircraft, and even now its 800-900km range aircraft (due to weight gain)
In any case, the discussion is all the more pertinent because for LCA Mk-2 we are retaining the same Wingform with Canards.

To understand the design issues facing ADA (which was to develop a aircraft equivalent to F-16/Mirage 2000 while using GE F404 – 75kn engine), we have to look at some real life examples:-

F-16 vs F-16XL

F-16xl was a delta wing variant of F-16. Most of my assertions in this article are based on 300 Page NASA Study on F-16XL which is available on Internet for public. This is the most important comparison for the purpose of present article as it indicates what would happen to range and payload (and other aerodynamic features) of LCA if Delta wing is dropped for conventional swept wing to increase STR.

F-16 vs Mirage 2000

F-16 has way better engine 1 generation ahead of Mirage 2000, which is 20%-30% more powerful while being 15%-20% more fuel efficient. F-16 has more conventional swept wing vs. Mirage 2000 tailless delta wing.

(Strictly speaking F-16 is not conventional swept wing, uses leading wing root edges but we are going to keep it simple.)

Mirage III vs Mirage F1 vs Mirage 2000 vs Rafale

France developed a hugely successful tailless Delta wing Mirage III, went to conventional swept wing with Mirage F1 and then came back to Mirage 2000 again with FBW controlled tailess delta wing and moved ahead to Close coupled canard Delta Wing Rafale

Now, why the delta wing for LCA?

Did we choose a bad design and are Sticking with a bad design? Is DRDO incompetent or Lazy? Should I pick up my Phone and educate ADA-DRDO?

Answer:-LCA has Delta Wing planform controlled by FBW because it has a “longer range” than conventional swept wing inspite of the fact that Delta wing has “bigger” wing area for a “given” engine power.

Now there goes one of the biggest myths facing LCA that its wing is big & hence its draggy and “hence” LCA has a very short range of 350-500km. In fact even I thought that LCA wing with its big area was a huge draw back.

As per NASA studies on F-16XL, FBW Delta wing has 40% more range (compared to F-16, inspite of being big and (allegedly) draggy).

Refer:-

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file ... flight.pdf

Fortunately the answer lies in some basic physics. Swept wing broadly acts like a normal airfoil but the lift in delta wing is generated by “vortex” generated over the wings. (Google the rest). It is counter-intuitive and is something like, Indian Ballistic Missiles with blunt noses are more accurate than pointy missiles of Pakistan (gifted by China).

Refer:-

Flight data

Due to these vortexes, Delta Wing inspite of a Bigger Area can generate lift with lesser drag and is more efficient in not only cruise but also acceleration, transonic & supersonic regimes compared to conventional swept back wing (or even advanced swept back wing of F-16). Apart from having better ITR, more storage area, better fatigue life, lower wing loading, easier to manufacture etc.

Hence Bander FC-17 with its weak *censored* thirsty engine, limited FBW, swept back wing and aluminium body may have only 40% to 60% range of LCA (not withstanding Pak fanboy posts)

But Delta Wing does have cons like longer take off & landing runs, lower STR etc.

But why waste time over FBW? Could we not have gone for conventional controls with stable aircraft? Should I call up ADA and tell them about their stupidity as I just thought about it? Even some ex-IAF pilots say so. Why did we waste 5-15 years struggling with FBW? ADA Guys are fools!! I am more intelligent!!!

But there is a catch, about adopting Delta Wing. That pesky thing called Physics again! But anyway, unfortunately the trim drag of Delta wing tends to negate the benefits unless we use, guess….., FBW.

FBW by automatic computerised movement of control surfaces can massively reduce the trim drag penalty of Delta Wing.


Therefore if we use Delta wing without FBW then it has range shorter than swept back wing, due to trim drag. For Eg, LCA range would fall by 40%-60% and it may have a range of only 300km-500km equal to Mig-21 rather than 800-1200km equal to F-16s/Mirage 2000.

So for a “GIVEN” engine size Delta wing with FBW provides (substantially) more range and better speed, acceleration, etc.
Which means that FBW is not a matter of choice and is forced upon the designers if they want good range.

Now lets test this hypothesis through empirical data:-

F-16 vs delta wing of F-16XL, using similar engine F-16XL has either double the payload or 40% more range, (says NASA)

Another Eg. French Mirage III was delta wing without FBW. So France went to Mirage F1 conventional swept wing for better range (and other benefits off course). Thereafter when it was able to develop FBW it went back to Delta wing which had even better range. Hence, France went from Mirage F1 to Delta wing of Mirage 2000 to get better range, speed and acceleration. Conclusion LCA has 40%-60% better range than Chinese Bandar FC-17

These Bloody Yinodoos, they are surreptitious scoundrels! Cheating the world media, world powers, dalal lobby; all the while developing ballistic missiles while talking about sounding rockets.

We can test this hypothesis further. Mig-21, Mig-23Mig-29s, (earlier versions) all are very short ranged. USA had to use two engine heavies like F-15s and Soviets Su-27s with 300%-400% more power than LCA to get range and STR. Even present versions of Mig-29s which are really replacements of Mig-21s are giant beasts.

Hence, without FBW, without Delta wing, without composite body, the penalties are very heavy,. The only alternative is 2 “bigger engines” and as aforesaid we DID NOT have a Bigger engine.

We had a underpowered Marut and now underpowered Jaguar. Wonder why Jaguar was not used in Srilanka, Kargill and Balakot Revenge Strike??? It has everything the Desk Jockeys want. No FBW, No Delta and No Composites, not even a Radar, so did we want LCA to be like that?

Even though USAF rejected F-16XL because they did not want to give up sustained turn rate (among other reasons, like they may have wanted twin engines) but Note:- they did not use F-16 but had to go in for much bigger aircraft ie F-15 with almost 3x the engine power of F-16 (relative to the weight of aircraft)

Similarly (as aforesaid) Soviets had to use Mig-29 which is again is twin engine and still short ranged (compared to Mirage 2000) as it has neither FBW or Delta (nor any composites). Their Mig-23 was a dead end.

Coming back to LCA. LCA has a very advanced engine GE F404 and FBW with excellent fuel efficiency, FBW and Delta wing.

Hence, My guess is that the narrative about its/LCA short range is incorrect. Some (old) discussions on BRF which gave Relative Range of Mig-21 as 400km, LCA-500km, Mirage 2000 as 700km and F-16 as 900km are also incorrect. Perhaps they estimated the range using conventional comparison of frontal area & surface area. As aforesaid, the lift and drag on Delta plan forms is completely different and not directly comparable to swept back wing on linear basis.

My best guess is that range of Mirage 2000 & LCA MK1 is better or more than F-16 A-D, (without conformal wing tanks). Or to put it differently Israel carried out the famous Iraqi Osirak Raid at 1100km range in lo-lo-hi mode using F-16s. Both Mirage 2000 and LCA would be able to do that with weapon payload similar to F-16.

Arguing the issue from another angle:-

India did not have much choice. One suggestion was to simply develop Mig-21 further. It would not have led to much benefit and would have faced Soviet Resistance. We must remember that upgraded Mig-21s, Mig-23s, Mig-29s all, are no match to overall capabilities of Mirge 2000 and F-16s. Not to forget that we were already manufacturing Mig-21s and intended to license Manufacture Mirage 2000.

We tried to upgrade the design of Marut & did other sort of paper designs but were running into all sort of difficulties.

We were developing Kaveri engine (which was at initial stages) and with great difficulty Rajiv Gandhi wrangled GE F404. Was anyone offering bigger or better engine? Soviets were NOT offering RD-33 or Al-31!

Therefore DRDO had to design an aircraft around GE F404 (& potential Kaveri) which would successfully compete against Mirage 2000 and F-16s of the world. Hence there was no option but to adopt Delta Wing and FBW.

Off course there was a follow on two engined aircraft planned (MCA) but that’s another story.

What about the penalties of using Delta wing ? After all USA does not use it “nowdays” and neither does Russia.

Yes, there are penalties of using Delta Wing. Lets again look at F-16 vs Mirage 2000 for this.

USA retained F-16 wingform but inspite of being an aircraft in similar category of Mirage 2000, it uses 20% to 40% more powerful engine which is 15%-20% more fuel efficient ie basically a generation ahead of M53 of Mirage 2000.

Hence if we do not intend to use FBW controlled Delta wing we need a bigger engine and preferably two bigger engines which are also more fuel efficient because………..? they are bigger! Get it? (Which as aforesaid we don’t have, even today.)

Now, Inspite of F-16 bigger and more powerful and more efficient engine, still in lots of scenarios Mirage 2000 is better due to its Delta wing, like tau, response time, bank, roll rate, ITR, acceleration to supersonic regime etc.

Though the sustained turn rate is slightly poor to way more powerful F-16. Take off and landing distance is also more than F-16. Same problems are there in LCA also. As per some/lots of experts this minor difference in STR is not material compared to other benefits. Look at F-18 being used by USN, it is supposed to a pig.

Flight data

Further in any case, LCA was always intended to be followed up by 2 engine aircraft. The preliminary designs started circulating since 1990s as MCA. This would have been the follow up aircraft intended to address any deficiency in LCA.

Now coming to composites, Its incorrect to say that we had no exposure to composites.

We were already started absorbing composite technology with ALH, Dornier aircraft etc. The use of composites was essential as we had a punny engine with a big wing area, and an undeveloped aviation sector. It was an insurance against excessive weight gain, while maintaining competitive performance aganst F-16s, Mirage 2000, Mig-29s of the world.

I am not saying that LCA programme is perfect or that delay is justified but that the design choices were forced upto DRDO ADA and there was no easy way out. It was not a simple to say:-

Drop FBW, which would have led to 25%-50% range fall
Use aluminium body, which would have led to weight gain and 20% range fall
Using conventional swept wing, with aluminium body and conventional controls would have led to Mig-21 type range with bigger nose radar i.e. 20%-40% range fall

People tend to forget that the only low tech equivalent aircraft is FC-17 of China and we have no real world knowledge of its performance. But based on discussion above it will have less than half the range of LCA and very poor performance.

We (including myself) have always found LCA inadequate primarily due to short range. Seems like a punny aircraft. But based on my reading of NASA reports on F-16XL, I would like to say that LCA has range better or equal to Mirage 2000, F-16 (without conformal fuel tanks) and better than Gripen, Jaguar, early version of Mig-29 and double or triple the range of FC-17. Import dalals have been trying to create doubts in our minds by negative leaks and articles.

LCA with ferry range of 2100km in itself indicates a combat radius of 700-900km and these are early days when everything is done safely.

Compound Delta Wing

Now another minor (?) Gripe is that we use an over-complicated compound delta wing. Why did we not a simple pure delta like Mirage 2000. The answer is equally simple we were trying to decrease the limitations of Mirage 2000 and achieve a better performance.

Low swept Angle of wing (adjoining the fuselage) is intended improve low speed handling, angle of attack and to improve STR. Perhaps that is why LCA has a better STR than Mirage 2000. LCA also has a very small turning radius.

Compound Delta is well studied wing form used in Viggen and F-16XL.

Maitya & Indranil Excellent discussion is at :-

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6663&start=3200#p1774291
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6663&start=3240#p1775430
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/

LCA MK-2 and why does it use Canards

Now if all of above is right and correct, and everyone lived happily thereafter, then what about LCA Mark-2. Why does it use Canards and why did we not use canards earlier?

LCA Mk-2 can use Canards to get better STR, shorter take off and landing distance because it has access to bigger engine GE F414, which generates almost 25% more power than GE F404

So the Canards will add some penalty of weight & drag but with bigger engine, more fuel we end up getting everything like better STR, shorter take off and landing distance alongwith more fuel, hence more range, more payload as LCA MK-2 is a bigger aircraft Rafale, Eurofighter also used Canards as they have 2 engines while Gripen is a short ranged pig

LCA Mk2 will be equal to or better than F-16/21 even with conformal fuel tanks and way ahead of upgraded Mig-29s, Gripen E/NG.

Naval LCA MKI, MK-2 will not be better than Mig-29Ks as NLCA is still evolving design which is heavy and underpowered compared to Mig-29Ks. Though there is serious doubt about the availability of Mig-29Ks on Naval deck.

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... t-fighter/
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... d-options/

Future

In AMCA we have gone for a different wingform as we wanted a stealthy aircraft but we are using two engines more powerful than Single Engine of LCA MK1.

Navy which wanted to longer range has (for now) stuck with LCA MK-2 wing form and Canards. Navy may want TDEF/ORCA to match or better Mig-29k reported 1200 km combat range with 6000 kg payload


courtsey gyan
bharat rakshak


any opinion on these points

@Milspec@Ashwin
@BlackOpsIndia @vstol Jockey @nair@ashwin@randomradio
@Gautam@bon plan
and aur bade log
randomradio
Gautam
Ashwin
randomradio
Bon Plan

Picdelamirand-oil
Design decisions are all a balance of the intended role, constraints and desired performance.

One thing I would like to add about the initial design decision is the utilisation of Mig-21 infrastructure. IAF wanted LCA to be small so they can fit in hardened aircraft shelter (HAS) on forward airbases which were built for Migs (I couldn't find a source for it now, read it long back). ADA went all-in on it for 'smallest fighter' citing Gnat's performance during 71 war.
 
  • Agree
  • Informative
Reactions: R!cK and vikata
the reality is by design Tejas specs are on par with F-16 & Mirage 2000.

This is my takeaway. Correct me If I'm wrong.
It's not,
Not by a longshot.

If an Airforce was given the choice between picking F16 vs M2K vs LCA, based only on performance, F16s followed by the m2k would come out on top every time.
 
Critique of LCA is not related to it's basic design but the way the project has been managed by ADA, IAF and off late by HAL.

The intention of the Tejas project was to give India a solid 4th gen aircraft that would have formed the backbone of Indian airforce and would have replaced close to 800 Mig21 Aircrafts as upgraded area defence fighters. (Point defence fighters/Area defence fighters, in this case, is not a slur btw)

Given I am no expert, in my head; a successful combat aircraft system should create an enabling ecosystem for some key core competencies. (Again this is something that I would have expected in my own head and is not the benchmark of success or failure )

>Design expertise for Aerosystem (solid modelling, surface modelling, FEM, concurrent design,Non-linnear FEA, Mesh Generators and vector algorithms)
>Propulsion Systems (GTRE)
>Avionics and Intelligent electronics devices (Connectors, Harnesses, display systems, microcontrollers, daqs, Radars, ground electronics, control devices)
>Weapons and countermeasure systems (Missiles, Guns, PGMs, Targeting systems, MAWS)
>Manufacturing Competencies: Production design packaging, Tooling and raw material planning, PPAP's, FAI's, MVB planning, Early Launch Containment. etc.


>Design expertise: Did ADA create design expertise for Indian Aero systems? The answer to that is hard : i don't know. I don't know if ADA has created internal tools that rival UG, catia, ansys, nastran, patran, stick models, or other CAE systems. Also If ADA created an internal resource pool that can create bottom-up design system parametric scalable design system which can support concurrent design is not known to me. But ADA doesn't seems to be an organisation which can come with large number of viable designs for Indian market and doesn't seem to have any goals or aspirations to become an international player for aerostructure designs.

>Propulsion Systems> A failure, no matter how we spin it. Just a failure. Failure of design, project management, materials design, testing, instrumentation. An all-round failure of magnanimous proportions.

>Avionics and Intelligent electronics devices:: To me this is a bittersweet type of area. In some of the avionics area we did quite well, in some we were pathetic.

>Weapons and countermeasures> This is one of the areas which is not at all directly related to LCA but an offshoot of the project. The labs related to weapons development were working in tandem but not directly co-related to LCA as a whole. In my head an aircraft needs to be armed adequately and independently. Given most of the weapon systems that are qualified are of foreign origin is something that bothers me, not the project leaders in the country.

>Manufacturing competencies: Let's face reality, this is 2020. Mig21's have been *almost* phased out, so have been Mig23's, Mig27's and there is a huge gap in squadron strength. The backbone of IAF is SU30 instead of LCA. That tells us a lot about manufacturing competencies. And there is plenty of blame to go around for MoD, ADA, IAF and HAL. We can quarrel about how to appropriate the same but nevertheless the ground reality is there are less than three dozen aircraft in existence. The proof is really in the pudding.
sir ,its always a pleasure to read your comment,it gives not only a dose of reality but also reminds the areas where we need to improve .perfect antidote which is required after reading @random radio.i distinctly remember you once said that HAL designing capabilty if utilised could have given better result.infact it was the HAL which has salvaged the mk1 interms of mk1a due to its industry experience.

waise sir dont you think it will be better than block 52 /17 fielded by our neighbor .so may be remain useful for a while . i have heard it has surpassed mig 27 in terms of load out in various configuration and people are even stipulating it to be reaching approx 4.25 tonne .where do you place it in front of jaguar.if given a choice would it not have been a better choice to replace mig 21/27/jag with tejas with more orders till we get out from this economic slowdown.it would have brought not only commonality but would have also reduced unit prices ,besides reducing the zoo.as it has demonstrated commendable a2g ability which was second to none

i know i am being greedy but what is your opinion on MWF do you think it will bring deathknell to the russina fighters (4th gen)in IAF barring su 57

here ofcourse i am assuming that south asia will have 4th gen fighters atleast for the next 30 years and obviously against china it wont be suffice by any stretch of imagination.
 
Critique of LCA is not related to it's basic design but the way the project has been managed by ADA, IAF and off late by HAL.

The intention of the Tejas project was to give India a solid 4th gen aircraft that would have formed the backbone of Indian airforce and would have replaced close to 800 Mig21 Aircrafts as upgraded area defence fighters. (Point defence fighters/Area defence fighters, in this case, is not a slur btw)

Given I am no expert, in my head; a successful combat aircraft system should create an enabling ecosystem for some key core competencies. (Again this is something that I would have expected in my own head and is not the benchmark of success or failure )

>Design expertise for Aerosystem (solid modelling, surface modelling, FEM, concurrent design,Non-linnear FEA, Mesh Generators and vector algorithms)
>Propulsion Systems (GTRE)
>Avionics and Intelligent electronics devices (Connectors, Harnesses, display systems, microcontrollers, daqs, Radars, ground electronics, control devices)
>Weapons and countermeasure systems (Missiles, Guns, PGMs, Targeting systems, MAWS)
>Manufacturing Competencies: Production design packaging, Tooling and raw material planning, PPAP's, FAI's, MVB planning, Early Launch Containment. etc.


>Design expertise: Did ADA create design expertise for Indian Aero systems? The answer to that is hard : i don't know. I don't know if ADA has created internal tools that rival UG, catia, ansys, nastran, patran, stick models, or other CAE systems. Also If ADA created an internal resource pool that can create bottom-up design system parametric scalable design system which can support concurrent design is not known to me. But ADA doesn't seems to be an organisation which can come with large number of viable designs for Indian market and doesn't seem to have any goals or aspirations to become an international player for aerostructure designs.

>Propulsion Systems> A failure, no matter how we spin it. Just a failure. Failure of design, project management, materials design, testing, instrumentation. An all-round failure of magnanimous proportions.

>Avionics and Intelligent electronics devices:: To me this is a bittersweet type of area. In some of the avionics area we did quite well, in some we were pathetic.

>Weapons and countermeasures> This is one of the areas which is not at all directly related to LCA but an offshoot of the project. The labs related to weapons development were working in tandem but not directly co-related to LCA as a whole. In my head an aircraft needs to be armed adequately and independently. Given most of the weapon systems that are qualified are of foreign origin is something that bothers me, not the project leaders in the country.

>Manufacturing competencies: Let's face reality, this is 2020. Mig21's have been *almost* phased out, so have been Mig23's, Mig27's and there is a huge gap in squadron strength. The backbone of IAF is SU30 instead of LCA. That tells us a lot about manufacturing competencies. And there is plenty of blame to go around for MoD, ADA, IAF and HAL. We can quarrel about how to appropriate the same but nevertheless the ground reality is there are less than three dozen aircraft in existence. The proof is really in the pudding.

As for mechanical design is concerned they don't any third party software. They developed it in-house and still use it. I can attest to that as far back as 2013-14. There was a report ADA developed software is being used by Airbus. Moreover there are simulation software developed by ISRO which is being used by defence agencies.

We don't have much independence in Test and measurement softwares and I know we use US softwares for that. The primary reason is most of the DAQ, programmable equipments tend to work only with few softwares. So in order to develop the software one needs to develop hardware as well.
 
First Lca should do what JF17 has done.
Then all the superior ity thing ..

Retire old aircraft s, replace with newer aricrafts..

LCA mk1 has reached more than sufficient standards to replace older Aircraft s.

Just that comment of " LCA mk1 radar is the best in IAF interms of clarity "
With Asraam & derby I missiles
Dash helmet & HUD
Quick turn around time , hot refuelling & multiple sorties in a day.
Best air - ground performance..

Isn't this not enough ?
 
It's not,
Not by a longshot.

If an Airforce was given the choice between picking F16 vs M2K vs LCA, based only on performance, F16s followed by the m2k would come out on top every time.

How do you look at the ALSR feature that has been added recently in FOC Tejas
And which is a very useful tool for
Dog Fighting

Slow speed and rapid turns are a must for winning the Dog fight along with HMS


ALSR – An Advanced feature which will transform Tejas into Deadlier Dogfighter | Aero Journal India


Dogfighting in an F/A-18 Hornet! | SOFREP

Even Eurofighter has this capability

Tejas also has very good climb rate
 
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It's not,
Not by a longshot.

If an Airforce was given the choice between picking F16 vs M2K vs LCA, based only on performance, F16s followed by the m2k would come out on top every time.

BVR combat is dependent on Radar , Jammer and How many missiles can you afford To WASTE just like the Pak-is did on 27 Feb

Tejas Radar even now is highly rated as I read on BR forum

Elta Jammer is.serving us well

Ultimately it will come down to the merge
 
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My Understanding of LCA Attempt-2

To follow up to my earlier discussions on LCA, I did some more reading and also tried to understand the posts and articles of Indranil, Nilesh Rane, Surya and Maitya (courtesy lockdown).

I had always been perplexed with (aerodynamic) design choices of LCA and had no satisfactory answer. Though I hasten to add that all the articles of Indranil, Nilesh, Maitya (& posts) are correct but they are written by an expert and hence does not address, in detail, some questions which layperson like me finds perplexing. That is to say that they are dealing with Algebra while we are struggling with Sita Kaun thi?

The primary grievance against LCA is that it is inadequate and small little aircraft with short radius of action 300km-500km. Just like a Mig-21 so why did we not go with upgraded Mig-21.

Second is that LCA has not achieved what F-16 and Mirage did 40 years ago, hence why did we not adopt the design philosophies of Mirage 2000/F-16 rather than trying to re-invent the wheel?

So there goes nothing.

LCA design made 3 major choices, which have always been perplexing and rather debated, being:-

1. Delta Wingform vs Conventional Swept wing
2. Fly by Wire vs Conventional Controls
3. Use of Composites

The more I study the issue, the more I realise that these choices were forced upon DRDO-ADA and were not really a matter of free option. People offering simplistic solutions have not understood the problems/choices facing ADA.

But before we discuss the design choices, let’s have a look at the Dilemmas of the Political leadership and IAF Brass. My understanding is as follows:-

1. We did not go for upgraded Mig-21 as Soviets would not have co-operated. Further enlarging the nose of Mig-21s to put in a better radar would have given us a completely different aircraft with range even shorter than Mig-21, if we had used Mig-21 technology base.

2. We did not reverse engineer or go in for design philosophy of F-16s or Mirage 2000 as we did not have the “Engine”! No one was offering us 100kn engine.

3. Unfortunately the experts, even ex-IAF pilots look at things in compartments. It is easy to say upgrade the Mig-21 as if Soviets were their FILs with Garlands in their hands. Additionally, Soviets fighter aircraft had shit kicked out of them in 1982 Yom Kippur Israel-Syria war and we had to prepare ourselves against Pak and China acting together (perhaps using Western Equipment). We also knew that next Gen Soviet aircraft to Mig-21 being Mig23 were no match for western equipment. Even Mig-29 until recently has been very short ranged & maintenance heavy aircraft. Only when RD33/93 became powerful enough in this decade, its able to carry enough fuel using TWO Engines.

4. Rajiv Gandhi wrangled the most modern engine at the time being GE F404 (75kn) from Ronald Reagan and we set upon the task of developing a fighter equal to F-16/Mirage 2000 around that engine as we had no other choice. Rajiv Gandhi Got us:-

1. World most modern (small) Engine GE F404 75kn - USA
2. FBW – USA Martin Mareitta
3. Design – BAE, Dassault - UK, France
4. Composites and Wings construction – Italy - Alenia, Germany
5. Radar – Ericssion Sweden

And now using these building blocks we had to develop an aircraft which would be equal to F-16/Mirage 2000 and will not get its *censored* kicked like Syria in Yom Kippur 1982 and Argentina in Falklands 1982.

Intention of Indian DRDO & IAF Brass :-

We always intended to develop an aircraft way more advanced than F-16/Mirage 2000 with “more range” We went about portraying it as little toy aircraft to avoid attracting attention during Cold War Era and subsequently to avoid getting the programmed derailed by competitors. Remember our polite non-threatening Dr. Abdul Kalam working on sounding rockets. The Aim to develop long range Ballistic Missiles was always his real intent.

My understanding is that LCA was intended to be 1000-1200km range aircraft, and even now its 800-900km range aircraft (due to weight gain)
In any case, the discussion is all the more pertinent because for LCA Mk-2 we are retaining the same Wingform with Canards.

To understand the design issues facing ADA (which was to develop a aircraft equivalent to F-16/Mirage 2000 while using GE F404 – 75kn engine), we have to look at some real life examples:-

F-16 vs F-16XL

F-16xl was a delta wing variant of F-16. Most of my assertions in this article are based on 300 Page NASA Study on F-16XL which is available on Internet for public. This is the most important comparison for the purpose of present article as it indicates what would happen to range and payload (and other aerodynamic features) of LCA if Delta wing is dropped for conventional swept wing to increase STR.

F-16 vs Mirage 2000

F-16 has way better engine 1 generation ahead of Mirage 2000, which is 20%-30% more powerful while being 15%-20% more fuel efficient. F-16 has more conventional swept wing vs. Mirage 2000 tailless delta wing.

(Strictly speaking F-16 is not conventional swept wing, uses leading wing root edges but we are going to keep it simple.)

Mirage III vs Mirage F1 vs Mirage 2000 vs Rafale

France developed a hugely successful tailless Delta wing Mirage III, went to conventional swept wing with Mirage F1 and then came back to Mirage 2000 again with FBW controlled tailess delta wing and moved ahead to Close coupled canard Delta Wing Rafale

Now, why the delta wing for LCA?

Did we choose a bad design and are Sticking with a bad design? Is DRDO incompetent or Lazy? Should I pick up my Phone and educate ADA-DRDO?

Answer:-LCA has Delta Wing planform controlled by FBW because it has a “longer range” than conventional swept wing inspite of the fact that Delta wing has “bigger” wing area for a “given” engine power.

Now there goes one of the biggest myths facing LCA that its wing is big & hence its draggy and “hence” LCA has a very short range of 350-500km. In fact even I thought that LCA wing with its big area was a huge draw back.

As per NASA studies on F-16XL, FBW Delta wing has 40% more range (compared to F-16, inspite of being big and (allegedly) draggy).

Refer:-

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file ... flight.pdf

Fortunately the answer lies in some basic physics. Swept wing broadly acts like a normal airfoil but the lift in delta wing is generated by “vortex” generated over the wings. (Google the rest). It is counter-intuitive and is something like, Indian Ballistic Missiles with blunt noses are more accurate than pointy missiles of Pakistan (gifted by China).

Refer:-

Flight data

Due to these vortexes, Delta Wing inspite of a Bigger Area can generate lift with lesser drag and is more efficient in not only cruise but also acceleration, transonic & supersonic regimes compared to conventional swept back wing (or even advanced swept back wing of F-16). Apart from having better ITR, more storage area, better fatigue life, lower wing loading, easier to manufacture etc.

Hence Bander FC-17 with its weak *censored* thirsty engine, limited FBW, swept back wing and aluminium body may have only 40% to 60% range of LCA (not withstanding Pak fanboy posts)

But Delta Wing does have cons like longer take off & landing runs, lower STR etc.

But why waste time over FBW? Could we not have gone for conventional controls with stable aircraft? Should I call up ADA and tell them about their stupidity as I just thought about it? Even some ex-IAF pilots say so. Why did we waste 5-15 years struggling with FBW? ADA Guys are fools!! I am more intelligent!!!

But there is a catch, about adopting Delta Wing. That pesky thing called Physics again! But anyway, unfortunately the trim drag of Delta wing tends to negate the benefits unless we use, guess….., FBW.

FBW by automatic computerised movement of control surfaces can massively reduce the trim drag penalty of Delta Wing.


Therefore if we use Delta wing without FBW then it has range shorter than swept back wing, due to trim drag. For Eg, LCA range would fall by 40%-60% and it may have a range of only 300km-500km equal to Mig-21 rather than 800-1200km equal to F-16s/Mirage 2000.

So for a “GIVEN” engine size Delta wing with FBW provides (substantially) more range and better speed, acceleration, etc.
Which means that FBW is not a matter of choice and is forced upon the designers if they want good range.

Now lets test this hypothesis through empirical data:-

F-16 vs delta wing of F-16XL, using similar engine F-16XL has either double the payload or 40% more range, (says NASA)

Another Eg. French Mirage III was delta wing without FBW. So France went to Mirage F1 conventional swept wing for better range (and other benefits off course). Thereafter when it was able to develop FBW it went back to Delta wing which had even better range. Hence, France went from Mirage F1 to Delta wing of Mirage 2000 to get better range, speed and acceleration. Conclusion LCA has 40%-60% better range than Chinese Bandar FC-17

These Bloody Yinodoos, they are surreptitious scoundrels! Cheating the world media, world powers, dalal lobby; all the while developing ballistic missiles while talking about sounding rockets.

We can test this hypothesis further. Mig-21, Mig-23Mig-29s, (earlier versions) all are very short ranged. USA had to use two engine heavies like F-15s and Soviets Su-27s with 300%-400% more power than LCA to get range and STR. Even present versions of Mig-29s which are really replacements of Mig-21s are giant beasts.

Hence, without FBW, without Delta wing, without composite body, the penalties are very heavy,. The only alternative is 2 “bigger engines” and as aforesaid we DID NOT have a Bigger engine.

We had a underpowered Marut and now underpowered Jaguar. Wonder why Jaguar was not used in Srilanka, Kargill and Balakot Revenge Strike??? It has everything the Desk Jockeys want. No FBW, No Delta and No Composites, not even a Radar, so did we want LCA to be like that?

Even though USAF rejected F-16XL because they did not want to give up sustained turn rate (among other reasons, like they may have wanted twin engines) but Note:- they did not use F-16 but had to go in for much bigger aircraft ie F-15 with almost 3x the engine power of F-16 (relative to the weight of aircraft)

Similarly (as aforesaid) Soviets had to use Mig-29 which is again is twin engine and still short ranged (compared to Mirage 2000) as it has neither FBW or Delta (nor any composites). Their Mig-23 was a dead end.

Coming back to LCA. LCA has a very advanced engine GE F404 and FBW with excellent fuel efficiency, FBW and Delta wing.

Hence, My guess is that the narrative about its/LCA short range is incorrect. Some (old) discussions on BRF which gave Relative Range of Mig-21 as 400km, LCA-500km, Mirage 2000 as 700km and F-16 as 900km are also incorrect. Perhaps they estimated the range using conventional comparison of frontal area & surface area. As aforesaid, the lift and drag on Delta plan forms is completely different and not directly comparable to swept back wing on linear basis.

My best guess is that range of Mirage 2000 & LCA MK1 is better or more than F-16 A-D, (without conformal wing tanks). Or to put it differently Israel carried out the famous Iraqi Osirak Raid at 1100km range in lo-lo-hi mode using F-16s. Both Mirage 2000 and LCA would be able to do that with weapon payload similar to F-16.

Arguing the issue from another angle:-

India did not have much choice. One suggestion was to simply develop Mig-21 further. It would not have led to much benefit and would have faced Soviet Resistance. We must remember that upgraded Mig-21s, Mig-23s, Mig-29s all, are no match to overall capabilities of Mirge 2000 and F-16s. Not to forget that we were already manufacturing Mig-21s and intended to license Manufacture Mirage 2000.

We tried to upgrade the design of Marut & did other sort of paper designs but were running into all sort of difficulties.

We were developing Kaveri engine (which was at initial stages) and with great difficulty Rajiv Gandhi wrangled GE F404. Was anyone offering bigger or better engine? Soviets were NOT offering RD-33 or Al-31!

Therefore DRDO had to design an aircraft around GE F404 (& potential Kaveri) which would successfully compete against Mirage 2000 and F-16s of the world. Hence there was no option but to adopt Delta Wing and FBW.

Off course there was a follow on two engined aircraft planned (MCA) but that’s another story.

What about the penalties of using Delta wing ? After all USA does not use it “nowdays” and neither does Russia.

Yes, there are penalties of using Delta Wing. Lets again look at F-16 vs Mirage 2000 for this.

USA retained F-16 wingform but inspite of being an aircraft in similar category of Mirage 2000, it uses 20% to 40% more powerful engine which is 15%-20% more fuel efficient ie basically a generation ahead of M53 of Mirage 2000.

Hence if we do not intend to use FBW controlled Delta wing we need a bigger engine and preferably two bigger engines which are also more fuel efficient because………..? they are bigger! Get it? (Which as aforesaid we don’t have, even today.)

Now, Inspite of F-16 bigger and more powerful and more efficient engine, still in lots of scenarios Mirage 2000 is better due to its Delta wing, like tau, response time, bank, roll rate, ITR, acceleration to supersonic regime etc.

Though the sustained turn rate is slightly poor to way more powerful F-16. Take off and landing distance is also more than F-16. Same problems are there in LCA also. As per some/lots of experts this minor difference in STR is not material compared to other benefits. Look at F-18 being used by USN, it is supposed to a pig.

Flight data

Further in any case, LCA was always intended to be followed up by 2 engine aircraft. The preliminary designs started circulating since 1990s as MCA. This would have been the follow up aircraft intended to address any deficiency in LCA.

Now coming to composites, Its incorrect to say that we had no exposure to composites.

We were already started absorbing composite technology with ALH, Dornier aircraft etc. The use of composites was essential as we had a punny engine with a big wing area, and an undeveloped aviation sector. It was an insurance against excessive weight gain, while maintaining competitive performance aganst F-16s, Mirage 2000, Mig-29s of the world.

I am not saying that LCA programme is perfect or that delay is justified but that the design choices were forced upto DRDO ADA and there was no easy way out. It was not a simple to say:-

Drop FBW, which would have led to 25%-50% range fall
Use aluminium body, which would have led to weight gain and 20% range fall
Using conventional swept wing, with aluminium body and conventional controls would have led to Mig-21 type range with bigger nose radar i.e. 20%-40% range fall

People tend to forget that the only low tech equivalent aircraft is FC-17 of China and we have no real world knowledge of its performance. But based on discussion above it will have less than half the range of LCA and very poor performance.

We (including myself) have always found LCA inadequate primarily due to short range. Seems like a punny aircraft. But based on my reading of NASA reports on F-16XL, I would like to say that LCA has range better or equal to Mirage 2000, F-16 (without conformal fuel tanks) and better than Gripen, Jaguar, early version of Mig-29 and double or triple the range of FC-17. Import dalals have been trying to create doubts in our minds by negative leaks and articles.

LCA with ferry range of 2100km in itself indicates a combat radius of 700-900km and these are early days when everything is done safely.

Compound Delta Wing

Now another minor (?) Gripe is that we use an over-complicated compound delta wing. Why did we not a simple pure delta like Mirage 2000. The answer is equally simple we were trying to decrease the limitations of Mirage 2000 and achieve a better performance.

Low swept Angle of wing (adjoining the fuselage) is intended improve low speed handling, angle of attack and to improve STR. Perhaps that is why LCA has a better STR than Mirage 2000. LCA also has a very small turning radius.

Compound Delta is well studied wing form used in Viggen and F-16XL.

Maitya & Indranil Excellent discussion is at :-

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6663&start=3200#p1774291
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6663&start=3240#p1775430
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/

LCA MK-2 and why does it use Canards

Now if all of above is right and correct, and everyone lived happily thereafter, then what about LCA Mark-2. Why does it use Canards and why did we not use canards earlier?

LCA Mk-2 can use Canards to get better STR, shorter take off and landing distance because it has access to bigger engine GE F414, which generates almost 25% more power than GE F404

So the Canards will add some penalty of weight & drag but with bigger engine, more fuel we end up getting everything like better STR, shorter take off and landing distance alongwith more fuel, hence more range, more payload as LCA MK-2 is a bigger aircraft Rafale, Eurofighter also used Canards as they have 2 engines while Gripen is a short ranged pig

LCA Mk2 will be equal to or better than F-16/21 even with conformal fuel tanks and way ahead of upgraded Mig-29s, Gripen E/NG.

Naval LCA MKI, MK-2 will not be better than Mig-29Ks as NLCA is still evolving design which is heavy and underpowered compared to Mig-29Ks. Though there is serious doubt about the availability of Mig-29Ks on Naval deck.

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... t-fighter/
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... d-options/

Future

In AMCA we have gone for a different wingform as we wanted a stealthy aircraft but we are using two engines more powerful than Single Engine of LCA MK1.

Navy which wanted to longer range has (for now) stuck with LCA MK-2 wing form and Canards. Navy may want TDEF/ORCA to match or better Mig-29k reported 1200 km combat range with 6000 kg payload


courtsey gyan
bharat rakshak


any opinion on these points

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very interesting sum up !

About canards, there are two kinds : close coupled and long arm. With very differents results....
 
The primary task of FBW is to make a aerodynamically unstable aircraft flyable . Other benifits are secondary
 
As for mechanical design is concerned they don't any third party software. They developed it in-house and still use it. I can attest to that as far back as 2013-14. There was a report ADA developed software is being used by Airbus. Moreover there are simulation software developed by ISRO which is being used by defence agencies.

We don't have much independence in Test and measurement softwares and I know we use US softwares for that. The primary reason is most of the DAQ, programmable equipments tend to work only with few softwares. So in order to develop the software one needs to develop hardware as well.
DRDO was among the first of Catia users. You are talking 2013, I have sat on CRE/CRI catia v4 workbenches circa 2004.

1587060640115.png
 
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F16 Blk 52 Vs LCA MK1A

or

F16 Blk 2/M2k Vs LCA MK2
F16 Blk 52 Vs LCA MK1A

For sake of simplicity, I will keep it to F16CBlk52+ which came out in 2003. (Blk50 in 1991 but at that time 50 was C, while 52 was designated to D).
So we have f16 std airframe, with Pw229, CFT's with 1.4k Litres of fuel, apg68V9 radar, and full suite of US weaponry.
VS LCA mk1A with 2015 stopgap changes; i.e external jammer, SPJ, AESA radar and GE404IN powerplant.

Right off the bat, F16C BLK52C has better range, better payload and faster than than the LCAmk1A. Given the blk52 is almost behind mk1A by 12 years, LCA's radar should be superior in technology (can't comment on range effectiveness). So if tomorrow a LCA MK1A went up against an F16Cblk52, sure there is a good chance LCAmk1A can keep up in WVR. In BVR Ai120C5 is still going to be a huge challenge for Derby.
But if I were to equip an Airforce, I'd say there is avionics upgrade options out there which will definitely beat the LCA at the technology game within the F16blk52 platform. (Sabr, F16V. Blk80, F16IN)

F16 Blk2 vs LCA MK2
I am guessing BLK2 is a typo and you meant 52. Well MK2 doesn't exist, when it does we can talk.


Lastly, my contention is quite simple, If our 43million dollar LCA was such a prolific half-price F16 beater, guess who would be lining up with an order of 800 LCA's out there > Indian Airforce. wouldn't it?