LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

[randomradio]

Mig21 and F16 are two incomparable platforms as well. Unless until there is actual engagement, it's tough to deduce. That's why I don't really much get into theories.

Nobody is comparing Mig-21 with F-16.

To respect the benefit of doubt, I don't think any of those missiles will actually be able to engage the target (4th and 4th+ gen) beyond 120-130 km successfully.

Those are maximum ranges. The effective ranges are considerably less.

Similarly, missiles like Aim-120C5 also have considerably less effective ranges even though they are advertised as 100+Km missiles.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

How many missiles? that depends on how many I can carry. Also, remember Combat aircraft are flown by pilots and not accountants, they hear a solid tone for 2 second and let it off, they never hear the cha-ching of cash register while shooting anything.

Now on a WVR, most of the tech advantage is out the door, in BVR as we say Bison took down f16, so sure LCA stands a chance, but it makes me wonder why is the IAF not lining up to flood the bases withe the f16 killer, because in reality if there wasn't US related diplomatic and political baggage with the F16's, it would have fit the Indian requirement of fast, agile, scalable, upgradable, robust and proven single-engine multirole platform like a condom. (not even a glove). It's just that f16's remain the "salli" that we can flirt with but can't get.

F 16 and F 18 have been available to us ever since 2005 when US president George Bush cleared them for export to India , ie when PAF was given the Block 52

But we are happy with our Upgraded Mirage 2000 and Mig 29s both of which can take on the Block 52 in a One to One
Fight

Sukhois are another matter altogether

Otherwise We would not have sent Mirages inside Pakistan in Feb 2019

And finally when Mig 21 Bison has killed the F 16 , why on earth should we be looking at it in a Coquettish Manner

( Your Salli analogy is preposterous to say the least )

All the BLOCK 70 goodies which are being dangled before us are available in RAFALE minus the sanctions and lecturing that Americans indulge in

 

[vikata]

Not necessary. Tactics matter as well. As does EW. But that goes beyond the scope of the forum.



Of course not.



Astra Mk1 outranges the C5, and comes close to the C7.



Both suck.

And no, Rafale has no issues facing the F-16. In fact, comparing the F-16 with Rafale is actually doing a great disservice to the Rafale. They are totally incomparable aircraft.



Matching the F-16 will be a downgrade. The MWF will surpass it comfortably. It has more internal fuel, a much greater fuel fraction, the same number of hardpoints in the same layout and more or less the same payload. The MWF is actually a pretty impressive aircraft.


MICA-NG will have a range of 150Km.
Derby-ER is well above 150Km, closer to 200km.
K-77M, Aim-260 and PL-15 have a range of 200Km.
Meteor is above and beyond 200Km.
SFDR will have a range above 300Km.

sir ,but the point is these may be brochure range ,russian are infamous for exaggeration (russian bvr has approx 1/3rd the life of AMRAAM).MICA ng i dont see any possibility in the next 5 years .i think even french has also said the same it will be developed (if and big if).

meteor definitely is up there ,i have not found any source which says derby er outrances c5


regarding f16 vs rafale ,i was basing my opinion on hushkit interview in which the rafale pilot says he finds f16 most difficult (4th gen),was happy to take on typhoon any given day.



i assume you dont rate mirage 2k and mig 2 favorably vs f16 ,which i completely agree with.

 

[vikata]

 

[randomradio]

sir ,

There's no need of that.

but the point is these may be brochure range ,russian are infamous for exaggeration (russian bvr has approx 1/3rd the life of AMRAAM).MICA ng i dont see any possibility in the next 5 years .i think even french has also said the same it will be developed (if and big if).

NICA NG is already in development. The Russian missile has already finished development.

i have not found any source which says derby er outrances c5

You won't find any either.

regarding f16 vs rafale ,i was basing my opinion on hushkit interview in which the rafale pilot says he finds f16 most difficult (4th gen),was happy to take on typhoon any given day.

Referring to dog fights. The F-16 has a high STR, which is why I said LCA should not get into a turning fight with it. But the pilot didn't say he was disadvantaged by the F-16, only that he was surprised by it. The F-16 is an excellent dog fighter.

i assume you dont rate mirage 2k and mig 2 favorably vs f16 ,which i completely agree with.

All three jets have advantages and disadvantages.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Referring to dog fights. The F-16 has a high STR, which is why I said LCA should not get into a turning fight with it. But the pilot didn't say he was disadvantaged by the F-16, only that he was surprised by it. The F-16 is an excellent dog fighter.

LCA will be our Primary CAP fighter

LCAs strength lies in Climb rate , low wing loading , Composites and ITR

Even if LCA gets into a WVR combat with F 16 ; Once it.climbs above the F 16 it will get into firing position and release the R 73 or ASRAAM

Offensive fighter sweeps which involves BVR combat is left to planes with longer loiter times like Su 30 ,Mig29 and Mirage

And later on will include Rafale

CAP role is more important to prevent
The large fleet of JF 17 s come any where close to our border

 

[screambowl]

Nobody is comparing Mig-21 with F-16.

I was referring a scenario when every one is trying to compare F16 with Rafael. Make an american pilot sit in F16 and an Indian pilot in Rafael, and imagine air to air engagement. People forget that that training is the most important aspect. What americans can do with an F16 other's can't. It does not come with the package. Similarly what Indians can do with Su30mki or LCA the Americans can't.

Those are maximum ranges. The effective ranges are considerably less.

Similarly, missiles like Aim-120C5 also have considerably less effective ranges even though they are advertised as 100+Km missiles

Of course! All the missiles missed the IAF jets even when fired withing 100km BVR engagement. So you can imagine. They perhaps even missed the Mig21s

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Nobody is comparing Mig-21 with F-16.

The only reason Abhinandan Killed the F 16 because it was 7000 feet Below him

And his R 73 got a missile lock

Even though the F 16 made a Steep Ascent to break the missile lock
He could not prevent Abhinandan get into a favourable position and release his R 73

So climb rate and wing loading are most important to get on TOP of your enemy

If MiG 21 could do so LCA is more likely to prevail against a F 16

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1251106865766821888

 

[Ankit Kumar]

While talking about F16s, just remember that only 18 block 50/52 are there. 13 ADFs are there. And 43 AM/BM are there, without having received new engines during their MLU..... And i haven't seen any news on any new engines since the Jordanian ADFs got delivered.

In simple terms, to preserve the hours, they can only fly so much.....

 

[Milspec]

LCA will be our Primary CAP fighter

Not by IAF's ordered numbers.

LCAs strength lies in Climb rate , low wing loading , Composites and ITR

What is LCA's rate of climb?

Even if LCA gets into a WVR combat with F 16 ; Once it.climbs above the F 16 it will get into firing position and release the R 73 or ASRAAM

Why would the f16 sleep ?

Offensive fighter sweeps which involves BVR combat is left to planes with longer loiter times like Su 30 ,Mig29 and Mirage

Interesting? all F16 Contemporaries.

 

[randomradio]

LCA will be our Primary CAP fighter

LCAs strength lies in Climb rate , low wing loading , Composites and ITR

Even if LCA gets into a WVR combat with F 16 ; Once it.climbs above the F 16 it will get into firing position and release the R 73 or ASRAAM

Offensive fighter sweeps which involves BVR combat is left to planes with longer loiter times like Su 30 ,Mig29 and Mirage

And later on will include Rafale

CAP role is more important to prevent
The large fleet of JF 17 s come any where close to our border

LCA would be much better at interception than at CAP.

The only reason Abhinandan Killed the F 16 because it was 7000 feet Below him

And his R 73 got a missile lock

Even though the F 16 made a Steep Ascent to break the missile lock
He could not prevent Abhinandan get into a favourable position and release his R 73

So climb rate and wing loading are most important to get on TOP of your enemy

If MiG 21 could do so LCA is more likely to prevail against a F 16

Considering the environment Abhi was acting in, he most likely got lucky. It's a failure of the PAF's AWACS crew.

 

[Milspec]

You've got the concept totally wrong.

All radars have a particular range at which they can detect a target of a particular size.

As you can see, the detection range of a 5m2 fighter jet is 120Km. It should be about the same for the APG-68 as well.

Then there's the JF-17 Block 3.
View attachment 15402

So for the KLJ-7A, it's advertised as 170Km against a 5m2 target.

This is what they say about Rafale's RBE-2 PESA.
Serious Squall - Avionics
In air-to-air mode, the RBE2 gives a tracking range beyond 60 nautical miles against a 30-square-foot target, with detection ranges up to 75 nautical miles.

So that's 140Km detection range against a 3m2 target, which translates to 160Km against a 5m2 target. Furthermore, they say that the AESA version doubles this range, which means we are talking about a potential 320 Km against a 5m2 target, or at the very least 250-320Km.

So the 2052 being more advanced is a given, in comparison to the KLJ-7A. And we can easily consider the Israeli radar is inferior to the RBE-2AA. So expecting 200Km is pretty reasonable for the 2052. For all you know, it could even be 250Km.

The 296Km range you gave for the APG-68v9 is most likely for a destroyer, similar to what's in the Zhuk-ME brochure.

Tracking range is rarely revealed.



That same reason why all the super cheap low end smartphones today are much faster than the first iPhone. The F-35 was excellent back when it was supposed to be ready, that's 2012-14. Naturally other countries have gone past the technologies used in the F-35, including the radar.

Although the F-35's radar is bigger, I believe the latest 2052 is much more sophisticated in comparison due to the significant time lag between the two.

I most definitely do not believe the F-35's radar has 10 times the power output as other AESA radars. It's not possible due to the limitations of physics.



https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/I-Derby-ER-brochure.pdf
View attachment 15401



Shouldn't really matter. Even if it's delayed by a year or two, it still means the missiles will be inducted simultaneously along with the aircraft. Anyway, my point is the LCA Mk1A will be able to carry such heavy missiles, and it won't be just another Mig-21.

2052's peak power is ~10KW. remember it's on Jags, which barely with its twin engines can make half the power on LCA.

RF seeker based on solid State refers to Solid state power amplifier for the transmitter and not being a AESA seeker. Even Python 6 Stunner is only speculated to have an AESA seeker.

 

[Milspec]

F 16 and F 18 have been available to us ever since 2005 when US president George Bush cleared them for export to India , ie when PAF was given the Block 52

Even today they come with thier political baggage, and thus I will be surprised to see them in Indian colors.

But we are happy with our Upgraded Mirage 2000 and Mig 29s both of which can take on the Block 52 in a One to One
Fight

Sure they can, but does that make them a superior package to, I highly doubt. One is out of production the other has massive maintenance, integration and reliability issues.

Otherwise We would not have sent Mirages inside Pakistan in Feb 2019

And finally when Mig 21 Bison has killed the F 16 , why on earth should we be looking at it in a Coquettish Manner

No one is, where are the LCA orders then?

( Your Salli analogy is preposterous to say the least )

Relax.

All the BLOCK 70 goodies which are being dangled before us are available in RAFALE minus the sanctions and lecturing that Americans indulge in

Exactly, thus the contention if there weren't political and diplomatic burdens associated with the f16 platform, it would have been a perfect fit for a single-engine platform to replace the mig21.

 

[randomradio]

2052's peak power is ~10KW. remember it's on Jags, which barely with its twin engines can make half the power on LCA.

Peak power is subjective. It depends on the type of module used along with the most obvious, number of modules. AFAIK, no information on the 2052 has been released for us to jump to any conclusion on the exact rating of the radar.

At best, what we can claim is LCA's radar should have as many as 1200T/R modules at the max, while the F-35's T/R module count will not likely exceed 1500. For GaAs, the maximum theoretical power limit is said to be 10W. So even if we assume the LCA has 8W modules while the F-35 has 10W, we get 9.6KW for the LCA and 15KW for the F-35. Nowhere near the 1/10th power you mentioned.

But we know for sure that the F-35 uses GaAs. Otoh, the 2052 is yet unknown, so it could be GaN. Most of the radars coming out of Israel now are GaN.

RF seeker based on solid State refers to Solid state power amplifier for the transmitter and not being a AESA seeker. Even Python 6 Stunner is only speculated to have an AESA seeker.

In the very next paragraph it says "controlling every single functional parameter by software". Can't do that with mechanical scan.

It is an AESA seeker.

 

[The Tashkent files]

Peak power is subjective. It depends on the type of module used along with the most obvious, number of modules. AFAIK, no information on the 2052 has been released for us to jump to any conclusion on the exact rating of the radar.

At best, what we can claim is LCA's radar should have as many as 1200T/R modules at the max, while the F-35's T/R module count will not likely exceed 1500. For GaAs, the maximum theoretical power limit is said to be 10W. So even if we assume the LCA has 8W modules while the F-35 has 10W, we get 9.6KW for the LCA and 15KW for the F-35. Nowhere near the 1/10th power you mentioned.

But we know for sure that the F-35 uses GaAs. Otoh, the 2052 is yet unknown, so it could be GaN. Most of the radars coming out of Israel now are GaN.



In the very next paragraph it says "controlling every single functional parameter by software". Can't do that with mechanical scan.

It is an AESA seeker.

Sir, I heard Uttam is also GaN. Can you confirm????
Any source of that. Thanks in advance.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1251181873272721409

 

[Milspec]

In the very next paragraph it says "controlling every single functional parameter by software". Can't do that with mechanical scan.
.

Yes it can, both transmit and receive functions are software controlled (Specifically transmit and receive functions through SDR). If it was an AESA radar it would say so, K77M does so does AAM4, it's their claim to fame.

 

[Milspec]

Peak power is subjective. It depends on the type of module used along with the most obvious, number of modules. AFAIK, no information on the 2052 has been released for us to jump to any conclusion on the exact rating of the radar.

At best, what we can claim is LCA's radar should have as many as 1200T/R modules at the max, while the F-35's T/R module count will not likely exceed 1500. For GaAs, the maximum theoretical power limit is said to be 10W. So even if we assume the LCA has 8W modules while the F-35 has 10W, we get 9.6KW for the LCA and 15KW for the F-35. Nowhere near the 1/10th power you mentioned.

But we know for sure that the F-35 uses GaAs. Otoh, the 2052 is yet unknown, so it could be GaN. Most of the radars coming out of Israel now are GaN.

https://www.iai.co.il/p/elm-2052

 

[Ashwin]

2022 is the date given by Sudhir Mishra and I'm sticking to that for now. Feasibility studies was completed long ago.

Doesn't matter what you stick with.

This report is the latest, Feb this year.
Will be ready with BrahMos-NG when IAF demands it: Dr S K Mishra

He is basically saying IAF is yet to commit to it!. Whatever under pipeline is definitely the land version. There is no precedence of an Indian air-launched weapon going the first test to production under 4 years. Just dream on.

Yes it can, both transmit and receive functions are software controlled (Specifically transmit and receive functions through SDR). If it was an AESA radar it would say so, K77M does so does AAM4, it's their claim to fame.

Exactly, it would be the title of the book.

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/tests-japans-aesa-meteor-planned-2023