LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

[Nikhil]

Ho i want to mk1A to fill up squadron s, until the next update is available.

Let's have the allocated fighters first,
With this we ll achieve many other things in aero industry, teir 1,2,3 suppliers , testing bench etc..

In case we catch up with better aircraft s, we can always retire or upgrade whatever is suitable to us.

When comes to national security one should not do Hera keri just to satisfy one's ego.... money doesn't grow on tree. Taxpayers money should be well spend. no matter how many Tejas or MWF you induct... it will still be an underpowered fighter jet compared to Rafale and if Pakistani BLK 52 got an AESA upgraded it's game over basically. you can increase capability of say radar and jammers using better material technology to overcompensate for lack of power but adversary can do it to so what decisive advantage you got ? other than a stalemate.
You can buy 36 Rafale for the same price of 83 Tejas mk1A with far greater capabilities than Tejas. Quality is of paramount importance nowdays over quantity.....a single F 35 in red flag exercise is killing a whole squadron of F- 15 and here we are talking about Tejas as a force multiplier.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

When comes to national security one should not do Hera keri just to satisfy one's ego.... money doesn't grow on tree. Taxpayers money should be well spend. no matter how many Tejas or MWF you induct... it will still be an underpowered fighter jet compared to Rafale and if Pakistani BLK 52 got an AESA upgraded it's game over basically. you can increase capability of say radar and jammers using better material technology to overcompensate for lack of power but adversary can do it to so what decisive advantage you got ? other than a stalemate.
You can buy 36 Rafale for the same price of 83 Tejas mk1A with far greater capabilities than Tejas. Quality is of paramount importance nowdays over quantity.....a single F 35 in red flag exercise is killing a whole squadron of F- 15 and here we are talking about Tejas as a force multiplier.

Rafale has a different role, Su30MKI has a different role and Tejas has a different one. No one of them is a replacement for other.

Pakistan still can gets its hands on Tranche 1 Eurofighters and add AESA to it.

We need to think what we need and what we can afford.

 

[Nikhil]

Rafale has a different role, Su30MKI has a different role and Tejas has a different one. No one of them is a replacement for other.

Pakistan still can gets its hands on Tranche 1 Eurofighters and add AESA to it.

We need to think what we need and what we can afford.

if we can afford 83 Tejas mk1A we surely can afford 36 Rafale and what role Tejas play other than being an interceptor and replacing MIG 21 for point defence ?. It's way underpowered for most other roles. Will Tejas intercept and survive a package of say upgraded f 16 with AESA on Pakistani border or say, J-10 , Sukhoi, J-20, FC 31 on Chinese border ? Let be realistic here. It doesn't provide us any decisive advantage over either china or Pakistan.

 

[Sathya]

When comes to national security one should not do Hera keri just to satisfy one's ego.... money doesn't grow on tree. Taxpayers money should be well spend. no matter how many Tejas or MWF you induct... it will still be an underpowered fighter jet compared to Rafale and if Pakistani BLK 52 got an AESA upgraded it's game over basically. you can increase capability of say radar and jammers using better material technology to overcompensate for lack of power but adversary can do it to so what decisive advantage you got ? other than a stalemate.
You can buy 36 Rafale for the same price of 83 Tejas mk1A with far greater capabilities than Tejas. Quality is of paramount importance nowdays over quantity.....a single F 35 in red flag exercise is killing a whole squadron of F- 15 and here we are talking about Tejas as a force multiplier.

Pakistan won't be getting anymore new F16..
Probably latest Blk 52 has chance to upgrade to F16v..
Rest , second handed F16 s and older F16 will get retired..

Probably 2 squad max.

Rest all will be easy.

What version of Aesa + Amraam will Pak get, won't we able to out do them with Elta 2052 GaN & i derby ER?

Didn't we still take on F16 with Mig 21,

All we need is couple of birds in air on time to defend.. in the area of ingress..
Rest all will scramble and cover.

If there was no Mig 21 available to take on F16 , what would have happened.?

Rafale or Mirage require Air conditioned shelter s. Is possible to upgrade all bases.

Tejas will fit in forward bases built for Mig 21 ..

More importantly our country does only at such efficiency.. If we chase advancedr aircraft to be made..
we ll forever chasing..

another risk is with higher imports we ll be restricted...

look at the Su 30 mki, we are still on discussion about upgradation..
while Mk1 is already getting upgraded to Mk1A..

let's take Jaguars for example..
it has Aesa radars now while Mirage don't.. In future Tejas will have something that won't be in rafale..

these upgradable advantages.. We ll miss out if don't support our own effort..

 

[randomradio]

You can buy 36 Rafale for the same price of 83 Tejas mk1A with far greater capabilities than Tejas.

The Mk1As are being bought for a role the Rafales are not as good at. So the Mk1As cannot be substituted by any other jet except MWF, Gripen and F-16.

Your argument is better served aimed at those (HAL) who think it's a better option to buy 4 more squadrons of MKI rather than 2 more squadrons of Rafale.

 

[janme]

Hi everyone, can anyone share an official source to confirm that Tejas can carry 2 wvr + 4 bvr along with a centreline fuel tank.

 

[randomradio]

It doesn't provide us any decisive advantage over either china or Pakistan.

If you are referring to the Mk1A, then the AESA radar + Derby-ER combo will be extremely difficult to match by Pak. Mk1As are meant for the Pak border. It will surpass the regular MKIs by a significant margin, along with the Mig-29 and M2000. Only the Rafale will be better until the MKI MLU and MWF are delivered. Nothing in PAF inventory will match the Mk1A, neither the JF-17 Block 3 nor the F-16 B52s (will infact become obsolete, along with the rest of the PAF) in terms of BVR combat. So it's good enough for our needs for a very long time.

 

[Kane]

Hi everyone, can anyone share an official source to confirm that Tejas can carry 2 wvr + 4 bvr along with a centreline fuel tank.

Although such a config is very much feasible, so far it has not been done (as per public info). Also there is a separate debate of carrying 4 BVRs makes sense or not on an aircraft like Tejas.

it is possible, but air force seems to have not asked for it as of now.

 

[randomradio]

these upgradable advantages.. We ll miss out if don't support our own effort..

We have reached a stage with our economy where imports are no longer a good idea due to political reasons. So even the smallest attempts at indigenisation must be supported to the fullest extent. Especially so when it comes to strategic systems.

 

[Sathya]

If you are referring to the Mk1A, then the AESA radar + Derby-ER combo will be extremely difficult to match by Pak. Mk1As are meant for the Pak border. It will surpass the regular MKIs by a significant margin, along with the Mig-29 and M2000. Only the Rafale will be better until the MKI MLU and MWF are delivered. Nothing in PAF inventory will match the Mk1A, neither the JF-17 Block 3 nor the F-16 B52s (will infact become obsolete, along with the rest of the PAF) in terms of BVR combat. So it's good enough for our needs for a very long time.

He is referring to F 16 V vs. Mk1A
When Paf upgrade their F16 with Aesa.

 

[Nikhil]

If you are referring to the Mk1A, then the AESA radar + Derby-ER combo will be extremely difficult to match by Pak. Mk1As are meant for the Pak border. It will surpass the regular MKIs by a significant margin, along with the Mig-29 and M2000. Only the Rafale will be better until the MKI MLU and MWF are delivered. Nothing in PAF inventory will match the Mk1A, neither the JF-17 Block 3 nor the F-16 B52s (will infact become obsolete, along with the rest of the PAF) in terms of BVR combat. So it's good enough for our needs for a very long time.

and What if BLK 52 got upgraded to BLK 70/72 standard with an AESA?
No matter how much you upgrade Tejas with GaN or new type of antenna....it will all come down to power in the end and F 16 will win hand down there.

The Mk1As are being bought for a role the Rafales are not as good at. So the Mk1As cannot be substituted by any other jet except MWF, Gripen and F-16.

and what's role that would be ? I guess interceptor right ? If it is....than its way underpowered.
even MWF will be underpowered compared to say F-16 but I understand that we can not keep importing foreign fighter jets but we can surely build a much capable single engine fighter jet comparable to F-16 or J 10 in specs.

Your argument is better served aimed at those (HAL) who think it's a better option to buy 4 more squadrons of MKI rather than 2 more squadrons of Rafale.

Actually no......unlike Tejas both Rafale and MKI are not under powered irrespective of there size difference.

 

[Nikhil]

Orca if true is a far better alternative compared to MWF if IAF is really serious and not doing Hera keri in my opinion. single engine fighter jet days are longe gone if you don't have 5th generation fighter jet like F-35.

 

[Gautam]

 

[vikata]

The Mk1As are being bought for a role the Rafales are not as good at. So the Mk1As cannot be substituted by any other jet except MWF, Gripen and F-16.

Your argument is better served aimed at those (HAL) who think it's a better option to buy 4 more squadrons of MKI rather than 2 more squadrons of Rafale.

Hi,do you also believe that when f16 will be having aesa it will be game over for our tejas.i mean what does f16 will get extra which elta 2052 will be incapable of providing coupled with Astra mk2/mk1/derby er /meteor (who knows)


If meteor will be integrated on Tejas same can be said for the f16 also ,I heard France rejected because Hal went for elta in place of thanks ,was it sensible on the part of iaf to go for elta,when it could have thales /meteor package or should have gone for USA aesa radar as it would have enabled AMRAAM .was it not self limiting on the part of iaf.


What's your opinion??

 

[vikata]

and What if BLK 52 got upgraded to BLK 70/72 standard with an AESA?
No matter how much you upgrade Tejas with GaN or new type of antenna....it will all come down to power in the end and F 16 will win hand down there.

and what's role that would be ? I guess interceptor right ? If it is....than its way underpowered.
even MWF will be underpowered compared to say F-16 but I understand that we can not keep importing foreign fighter jets but we can surely build a much capable single engine fighter jet comparable to F-16 or J 10 in specs.

Actually no......unlike Tejas both Rafale and MKI are not under powered irrespective of there size difference.

You seems to be quite enamored by the j10 ,is it really that good aircraft ,have come across many post of randomradio and Bharat rakshak which didn't talk about it in glowy terms .

If it was so good why didn't Pakistani got it in place of jf17??


So if possible kindly share your thoughts on j10 vis a vis lca

 

[randomradio]

and What if BLK 52 got upgraded to BLK 70/72 standard with an AESA?
No matter how much you upgrade Tejas with GaN or new type of antenna....it will all come down to power in the end and F 16 will win hand down there.

The V's AESA is unlikely to be better than the Mk1A's new radar. And even then that sort of upgrade is far away, probably 2030-35.

Regardless, even if the PAF upgrades the B52 to V in a few years, they do not have access to a better missile than the Aim-120D, which is significantly inferior to the Derby-ER. So the LCA's overall advantage still stands.

The LCA is more suited to BVR than the F-16 anyway. The new Mk1A has an RCS that's 10-15 times smaller than the B52. So the LCA will still see first and shoot first.

and what's role that would be ? I guess interceptor right ? If it is....than its way underpowered.

All it has to do is fire missiles and run away. You don't need power for that. The Mig-21 has even lesser power than the Mk1A in that respect.

The F-16 cannot make use of their extra power anyway, since they can't breach our SAM rings on their own chasing after the LCA.

Orca if true is a far better alternative compared to MWF if IAF is really serious and not doing Hera keri in my opinion. single engine fighter jet days are longe gone if you don't have 5th generation fighter jet like F-35.

Absolutely terrible idea. ORCA is simply in a different class and cannot take away the role from MWF.

We most definitely need a next gen jet, which is why the IAF needs 3 squadrons of Su-57 inducted between 2025-30, before the AMCA comes in. The F-35 is not a particularly realistic option for the IAF, so no point bringing it up.

 

[Nikhil]

The V's AESA is unlikely to be better than the Mk1A's new radar. And even then that sort of upgrade is far away, probably 2030-35.

higher TRM count due to superior US packaging technology + higher power available to F 16 give it's AESA an edge over Elta 2052 AESA.

Regardless, even if the PAF upgrades the B52 to V in a few years, they do not have access to a better missile than the Aim-120D, which is significantly inferior to the Derby-ER. So the LCA's overall advantage still stands.

AIM 120D is no way inferior to Derby-ER but will it be available to Pakistan is a different matter all together.

The LCA is more suited to BVR than the F-16 anyway. The new Mk1A has an RCS that's 10-15 times smaller than the B52. So the LCA will still see first and shoot first.

BLK 52 clean RCS is between 1.2 and 1.5m2 no way mk1A RCS is 10 to 15 time smaller....with weapons it will be even more. RCS for 4th generation fighter jet is a oxymoron.

.
We most definitely need a next gen jet, which is why the IAF needs 3 squadrons of Su-57 inducted between 2025-30, before the AMCA comes in. The F-35 is not a particularly realistic option for the IAF, so no point bringing it up.

SU -57 is Inferior to F-35 and have same RCS of that of latest F-18 BLK 3. It's not a true VLO aircraft like F 35 not even close.
F 35 is the best option for India if US offer it.... nothing come close period not even rafale.

 

[randomradio]

Hi,do you also believe that when f16 will be having aesa it will be game over for our tejas.i mean what does f16 will get extra which elta 2052 will be incapable of providing coupled with Astra mk2/mk1/derby er /meteor (who knows)

I've talked a bit about it in a previous post. The LCA will still retain the BVR edge over the F-16V due to a more capable radar, more advanced missile and much lower frontal RCS.

If meteor will be integrated on Tejas same can be said for the f16 also ,I heard France rejected because Hal went for elta in place of thanks ,was it sensible on the part of iaf to go for elta,when it could have thales /meteor package or should have gone for USA aesa radar as it would have enabled AMRAAM .was it not self limiting on the part of iaf.


What's your opinion??

I don't think the PAF will get anything more advanced than the Aim-120D for their F-16s, maybe not even that.

In our case, the Israeli radar was a better option due to its compact size and easier integration riding on the experience of HAL integrating the 2032 and 2052 on the Jaguar. The French did their part by involuntarily helping reduce the cost of the 2052, which was initially prohibitively expensive.

The US backed out of the tender. Anyway, the French and Americans were merely participants. The main goal for HAL was always the 2052.

For now, although the Meteor will be missed, the Derby-ER is more than sufficient. The American option was the least capable option anyway, so we didn't miss out on anything. The Derby-ER is already available and is leagues ahead of the Aim-120D, and we will have future advanced desi options become available to us before next gen American missiles like Aim-260 and LREWS. We don't even know when they will clear such missiles for export.

Plus the Derby-ER commonality between MKI and LCA is very important since their bases will be well-spread across our geography due to the numbers. We won't have the same advantage with AMRAAM or Meteor.

 

[Gautam]

 

[hellbent]

For point #2 - Astra Mk 2 is a decade away. That is why I Derby ER is being talked of.

No it is not , Astra mk2 will be available within 5 years or less if needed . Most of its technologies have been tested or are being or will be tested in astra mk1 / ngarm / akash NG .

The reason for delaying it's test is astra mk1 , they want to put it into production before moving onto astra mk2 otherwise , import friendly IAF will find an excuse to discard astra mk1 in the the guise of astra mk2. IAF is famous for shifting goal posts for a reason , most clueless branch , most of the time their minds are in the cloud ( now that's ironical )

It takes longest time for the first one of its class for obvious reasons , follow on products arrive quicker.