LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

Arpit said:
This is new development and for Tejas Mk2, and based on BNET. This was showcased in Aero India 2023. Furthur, there is no SDR for SATCOM from Israel, while HAL developing for Tejas Mk2.

BNET was only for Tejas Mk1A, and might be for those MKI upgraded with it after 2020.

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And this wasnt what stopping them, non-SDR based L-band datalink was available since 2015.
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These SDRs are for the future, very likely part of a new contest. The IAF's NCW capabilities are fully functional with the B-NET. These new SDRs have nothing to do with what they are already operating.

Even the IRNSS is now connected via a data link, at least to ground base stations, which are in turn connected via IACCS.
telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com

IAF develops Vayulink platform for jam-proof communication with base station - ET Telecom

Vayulink Solution: Known as Vayulink, the data link communication uses the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) that is also known as NAVIC, to send radio communication to the base station when the signals are low, an IAF officer involved in the project said.
telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com
 
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randomradio said:
These SDRs are for the future,
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Yeah Tejas Mk2 and most likely MKI upgrade.

randomradio said:
very likely part of a new contest. The IAF's NCW capabilities are fully functional with the B-NET. These new SDRs have nothing to do with what they are already operating.
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So are you suggesting after these SDR become operational, these aircrafts wont able to link itself like with those MKI with BNET and Tejas Mk1A. Am I understanding it right?

randomradio said:
Even the IRNSS is now connected via a data link, at least to ground base stations, which are in turn connected via IACCS.
telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com

IAF develops Vayulink platform for jam-proof communication with base station - ET Telecom

Vayulink Solution: Known as Vayulink, the data link communication uses the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) that is also known as NAVIC, to send radio communication to the base station when the signals are low, an IAF officer involved in the project said.
telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com
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Ku band data link was also developed by ECIL for Netra, there was never a problem in datalink, but procuring SDR.
 
Arpit said:
So are you suggesting after these SDR become operational, these aircrafts wont able to link itself like with those MKI with BNET and Tejas Mk1A. Am I understanding it right?
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Right now, our NCW capabilities are more advanced than what NATO operates. Primarily 'cause it's new and we are almost entirely on SDR with an IP-based network while they are not. But it's going up another level by 2030, and that requires new technologies, including SATCOM. So B-NET may get a 7 to 10-year run before it's replaced with new tech based on 5/6G wireless tech.

So we started off with ODL sometime around 2009-10. Then we upgraded to B-NET in 2020. The next one should happen over the next few years.
 
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randomradio said:
Right now, our NCW capabilities are more advanced than what NATO operates. Primarily 'cause it's new and we are almost entirely on SDR with an IP-based network while they are not. But it's going up another level by 2030, and that requires new technologies, including SATCOM. So B-NET may get a 7 to 10-year run before it's replaced with new tech based on 5/6G wireless tech.

So we started off with ODL sometime around 2009-10. Then we upgraded to B-NET in 2020. The next one should happen over the next few years.
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BNET is not a Tactical Data Link, it’s a SDR. Both things are quite different, you need SDR to make your Datalink secure and how connectivity happen in MANET, not the other way around.

ODL is a datalink, while BNET is SDR. There is no thing as upgrade, only upgrade we can say in ODL is from non- SDR, we have upgraded to SDR.

Same case with Navy, from non SDR Link-II to SDR Link-II.

Further, MIDS from Collins is of similar capabilities.
 
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Arpit said:
Adopting MADL fleet wide doesnt mean adopting Freedom series SDR in all nodes, rather than combining technologies developed for EMC2 with Freedom series, and implementing that in every node.
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For one last time. MADL is NOT a replacement of Link-16 as you have been saying. MADL has very specific use in stealth platforms and it works perfectly for that. For rest US military uses Link 16. If not for anything then atleast for being a DoD standard across different services.

Arpit said:
For the tenth time, SDR doesnt mean datalink, its a harware side, not the software side.
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For 1000th time, B-Net is NOT JUST a SDR ie hardware/pure transceiver. It also has its own communication protocol and yes, it is a data link.

B-Net DOES use SDR architecture because SDR architecture is flexible in using available specturm in tactical environment which among other things also makes it much more jamming resistant.

But B-Net does more than that. It is a MANET -- mobile adhoc network, meaning it establish connectivity in a changing battlefield where participants or nodes may come in range or go out of range (hence adhoc). You can not do this without a protocol and associated software.

So yes, B-Net is indeed a Data link, in the same sense link 16 is a datalink.

Source : https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/BNET-FAMILY.pdf

Arpit said:
Israeli integrated BNET for OPAL in F-35, doesnt mean you buy BNET, and ODL be integrated out of the box. If they wanted to they had used any other SDR and integrated with it, its the software thats matter.
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You biggest folly here is to consider BNet as a pure transreciver. It is not. It is a network (as I mentioned above). What does that mean? With B-Net you can connect F-35 to India's AWACS and share things like sensor information (visuals, video) and data and voice to other platforms.

OPAL is a much bigger thing in Israeli Airforce. Its somewhat similar or rather analogous to our IACCS which integrates (or rather attempts) all of IAF ground, air and space assets. It goes beyond just connectivity. But then, it STILL requires connectivity before integration can work. And speaking of IACCS, no matter whichever platform you choose (F-16, F-35 or even your own AMCA), you will have to do that integration. BNet solves the connectivity part.
 
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Arpit said:
Where I am suggesting this is a SLEP program, but what HAL claimed for SLEP. Furthur, overhaul doesnt come with upgrading radar to AESA, MC upgrade, FCC upgrade, IRST upgrade, changing full interior of aircraft with Indian one. Its not an overhaul neither MLU. Its a modernization program in US FMS's terms. You totally upgrading a 4th gen jet to 4.5+ gen.

And it is only cheap because you paying in INR, and everything is Indian, but in relative terms its still a costly proposition, otherwise check what Turkiye is paying for similar mordernization program
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It's not a modernization program. Changing LCA Mk1 to Mk2 or Hornet to Super Hornet is modernization. What's happening with MKI is just MLU, the airframe remains pretty much the same.
Arpit said:
BNET is not a Tactical Data Link, it’s a SDR. Both things are quite different, you need SDR to make your Datalink secure and how connectivity happen in MANET, not the other way around.

ODL is a datalink, while BNET is SDR. There is no thing as upgrade, only upgrade we can say in ODL is from non- SDR, we have upgraded to SDR.

Same case with Navy, from non SDR Link-II to SDR Link-II.

Further, MIDS from Collins is of similar capabilities.
Click to expand...

B-NET is SDR + data link.
 
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Arpit said:
BNET is not a Tactical Data Link, it’s a SDR. Both things are quite different, you need SDR to make your Datalink secure and how connectivity happen in MANET, not the other way around.

ODL is a datalink, while BNET is SDR. There is no thing as upgrade, only upgrade we can say in ODL is from non- SDR, we have upgraded to SDR.

Same case with Navy, from non SDR Link-II to SDR Link-II.

Further, MIDS from Collins is of similar capabilities.
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This is patently wrong.

Infact BNET for Airborne system is marketed under trademark "Global-Link". https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/GLOBAL-LINK.pdf
It was presented in even back in Aero-2011 (Global Link – Empowering Airborne Net-Centric Operations - Defense Update:).

randomradio said:
B-NET is SDR + data link.
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Yes. Airborne B-Net communication system actually has been marketed as Global-Link as well.
 
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Saaho said:
This is patently wrong.

Infact BNET for Airborne system is marketed under trademark "Global-Link". https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/GLOBAL-LINK.pdf
It was presented in even back in Aero-2011 (Global Link – Empowering Airborne Net-Centric Operations - Defense Update:).



Yes. Airborne B-Net communication system actually has been marketed as Global-Link as well.
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The level of ignorance, if Rafael had developed a data link in past, that doesn’t mean IAF adopted it.

BNET is even adopted by Philippines Air Force for Link-16

And the final nail in coffin , from Doctrine of Indian Air Force, 2022 which was released in 2023.
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randomradio said:
Yep, it's the whole enchilada. MANET is a dead give-away.
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I don’t know why you guys are hell bent to prove something which don’t exist, and every evidence suggest otherwise.

Maybe a tendency.
 
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randomradio said:
It's not a modernization program. Changing LCA Mk1 to Mk2 or Hornet to Super Hornet is modernization. What's happening with MKI is just MLU, the airframe remains pretty much the same.


B-NET is SDR + data link.
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Yeah now US is wrong too

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Everyone is wrong in world.:censored:
 
Arpit said:
The level of ignorance, if Rafael had developed a data link in past, that doesn’t mean IAF adopted it.

BNET is even adopted by Philippines Air Force for Link-16

And the final nail in coffin , from Doctrine of Indian Air Force, 2022 which was released in 2023.
View attachment 32800


I don’t know why you guys are hell bent to prove something which don’t exist, and every evidence suggest otherwise.

Maybe a tendency.
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You don't know what all that means. You are confused from all the semantics.

You can carry an SDR of your choice and still choose Link 16, it will work separately from any other data link you have planned to carry. You are not restricted to just one.

The "ODL" is just a generic name, it's not a real designation. It is basically the Israeli data link that will come with B-NET.
 
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randomradio said:
You don't know what all that means. You are confused from all the semantics.

You can carry an SDR of your choice and still choose Link 16, it will work separately from any other data link you have planned to carry. You are not restricted to just one.

The "ODL" is just a generic name, it's not a real designation. It is basically the Israeli data link that will come with B-NET.
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Yeah when everything is failed, it’s a generic name, which is coming out from IAF own website. Nice try.
 
Arpit said:
Yeah now US is wrong too

View attachment 32803

Everyone is wrong in world.:censored:
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Your understanding of the term is incorrect.

Overhaul, MLU and modernization are completely different terms. And MKI can only undergo the first two, it's pretty much impossible for it to go through a modernization.

The Su-35 is a modernization, so is the Su-34, but MKI will remain the same airframe. All they are doing is replacing the avionics.

A modernization is a permanent change to the airframe. So the F-16 B50 to F-16 B60/70 transition is a modernization. The empty weight of the jet went from 8.5T to over 10T. And B70 has also seen some changes from the UAE's B60, so yeah, it's a modernization. But F-16 B52 to F-16V is not a modernization, it's just an MLU.

LCA Mk1 to Mk1A is a modernization.

Typically, a modernization is only done for new-build aircraft.
 
randomradio said:
Your understanding of the term is incorrect.

Overhaul, MLU and modernization are completely different terms. And MKI can only undergo the first two, it's pretty much impossible for it to go through a modernization.

The Su-35 is a modernization, so is the Su-34, but MKI will remain the same airframe. All they are doing is replacing the avionics.

A modernization is a permanent change to the airframe. So the F-16 B50 to F-16 B60/70 transition is a modernization. The empty weight of the jet went from 8.5T to over 10T. And B70 has also seen some changes from the UAE's B60, so yeah, it's a modernization. But F-16 B52 to F-16V is not a modernization, it's just an MLU.

LCA Mk1 to Mk1A is a modernization.

Typically, a modernization is only done for new-build aircraft.
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Ofcourse US is wrong too. Whole world is wrong. Aliens are wrong too? Or they are exceptions?
 
Arpit said:
Yeah when everything is failed, it’s a generic name, which is coming out from IAF own website. Nice try.
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Of course, it's a generic term. Like SAM, MBT, ASF, BMD etc.

Under ODL there are many types of data links with different purposes. It's not just one universal link. B-NET is just one such data link, just that it's now the primary data link that connects aircraft.

Like I said, you are stuck with semantics.

Why don't you actually see what BNET does first?

 
randomradio said:
Of course, it's a generic term. Like SAM, MBT, ASF, BMD etc.

Under ODL there are many types of data links with different purposes. It's not just one universal link. B-NET is just one such data link, just that it's now the primary data link that connects aircraft.

Like I said, you are stuck with semantics.

Why don't you actually see what BNET does first?

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Yeah, its so generic that only IAF use it.

VAYU : The IAF has achieved considerable success in networking its ground stations with the inductions of IACCS. However, the networking of airborne of airborne assets is still lagging. What are the major reasons for delays in this project and what is the timeframe to achieve such capability? Also, what are the IAF’s plans for space based networking particularly beyond GSAT-7A?

CAS: The networking of airborne assets is related to the Software Defined Radio (SDR)/Operational Data Link (ODL) Project. The procurement case for SDR is at a very advanced stage. Simultaneously, the specifications of Network Centric Operation Applications (NCO Applications) are being worked out based on IAF requirements. The delay in procurement of SDRs was due to issues of interoperability between stakeholders/operators. Meetings have been held under the chairmanship of DG Acquisition with various organisations under DRDO and DPSUs to discuss the issues of interoperability and security of communication through SDRs. The contract would be signed once cleared by the Acquisition Wing of MoD.
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Furthur, non-SDR based ODL was integrated with MKI back in 2013.
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Seriously, right now dont waste my time.
 
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forceindia.net

Enhancing situational awareness with SDR-based data-links

The introduction of AEW & CS platforms into the subcontinent by the Pakistan Air Force in the previous decade, and followed by the Indian Air Force’s (IAF)
forceindia.net forceindia.net
While the HAL-developed SDR-2010 has been available since 2011, it was only last year that the IAF commenced efforts on procuring 473 + 3,125 SDRs worth Rs 630 crore (including the integral tactical data-link component) for achieving real-time connectivity between all IAF aircraft/helicopters and the IACCCS’ terrestrial and airborne combat and combat-support elements.
 
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