LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

[Arpit]

Additional MKIs are useless, it will only serve to bolster an already bloated reserve force. A better option is to just buy more LCAs, and that's exactly what the IAF has decided to do with the 5 extra squadrons.

While the main thrust is towards LCA and AMCA, we will still need a 6-squadron stopgap jet that's been operationally proven or combat proven. It's based on our geography, we have 3 main areas to defend, and we need 2 squadrons in each. And this jet is necessary to bridge the gap between MKI (2000s) and AMCA Mk2 (2040s). And we are already a decade late.

If they werent thinking this, then they havent gone with indegenizing FCC for MKI, and converting MKI to fully adopt 1553 bus. Its a cost prohibitive exercise, and achieve nothing for upgrading 200 or so MKIs.
Furthur, they are not stopping there, GTRE is already upgrading Al-31's hot section.

And looks like MoD have already decided to purchase several new MKI UPG airframes, not just 12, which looks like an initial order.

 

[Rajput Lion]

You have every sensor which is superior that went into Su-57, and by manyfolds. So what it bring to table?
IAF rejected it for a reason.

Su-60MKI shall use sensors developed by us. Plus what IAF rejected was baseline Su-57. The current Su-57M with Mach 2.0 supercruise allowing AL-51 engines is a totally different beast. Good enough to swat J-20/J-35/KAAN and that's what matter.

Anyways, it is upto IAF what they decide.

 

[Sathya]

Su-60MKI shall use sensors developed by us. Plus what IAF rejected was baseline Su-57. The current Su-57M with Mach 2.0 supercruise allowing AL-51 engines is a totally different beast. Good enough to swat J-20/J-35/KAAN and that's what matter.

Anyways, it is upto IAF what they decide.

I think he means we are going in for Super sukhoi rather than Su 57 .

Maybe that composite skin u were saying may become reality in Su Su 30.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I think he means we are going in for Super sukhoi rather than Su 57 .

Super Sukhoi is NOT a replacement for 5th gen air dominance fighter like Su-57. If not Su-57 then we'll have to wait for AMCA MK2 and even that won't be a proper MKI replacement. Only a ~40 ton MTOW VLO fighter can fully replace MKI in the future.

Maybe that composite skin u were saying may become reality in Su Su 30.

I absolutely believe it. Let's wait for more details to come out.

 

[randomradio]

Rafale is the best bet for us along with Su-57M/Su-60MKI. F-35 just doesn't suit us, IMO.

Based on the current conditions, yes. This is really a post 2030 decision. That's when we will know where we stand with AMCA.

 

[Saaho]

Lol, no. Giving one example, how you integrate MADL with IACCS and indian datalink/ODL, that is on AEW&C,,, or you want us to give vectors to F-35 over voice?
Or you want to convert whole IACCS and AfNet with American Datalink? Far better to buy more Rafale or more MKI UPG airframes, and wait for AMCA.

I think you are misinformed... MADL is the data link that is used for co-ordination and tactical co-operation between F-35s. F-35s, actually have multiple datalink to talk to other platforms and (for the lack of better word) elements of USAF "network". The most common link is called Link16 which is common between F-18, F-16 etc. MADL is line of sight, limited range link so, it finds use in only very specific scnarios and ONLY involving F-35s.

You can read more on this from this document from US military : https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Publications/MCTP 3-20C.pdf , go to page 73.

Now coming to the bigger question that you were asking : How will F-35s communicate with AFNet, IACCS and indian AEW&C, right? Well for that you will have to integrate Link-16 with AFNet, IACCS and indian datalink standards. So it will be really this hard?

Now given that US was more than willing to sell F-18 and F-16 and India and US have signed an Air Information Sharing agreement, I am very confident that Link 16 could be integrated with Indian system OR Link 16 to Indian data link protocol convresion is possible OR system architecture in us fighters is modular enough to replace link 16 with whatever non US customers need.

 

[Saaho]

What it really means is any F-35 purchase will be a political decision, not a technical one. I'm sure the Israelis will have no problem with India being a part of their version.

Actually indeed! Decision to buy or sell F-35 is PURELY political one because afterall, Israel also needs F-35 to work with like of their own Phalcon (among MANY many MANY other things). Now that reminds me, there is another nation that operates Israeli Phalcon, uses Israeli SDRs (which are highly flexible and very well suited for bridging these data link gaps). A lot of integration problems that India will face will be already solved by Israelis. To be honest, it is very like, as @randomradio also said, IF politically things go fine, we will end up inducting a variant of F-35I.


Which IMHO, is the best F-35 variant out there. But then a lot of this "IF" is political. We will have to throw a bone. And a MASSIVE bone to Lock-mart for doing a massive massive lobbying campaign to allow sale of F-35 to india. May be with Israel in the tow, it might just be possible.

That being said, what I am not at all sure of is how much IAF desires F-35 as its "high end" Fifth gen fighter. India could really go for F-35 as high end fifth gen fighter and AMCA as its low-end fifth gen fighter.

Or may be AMCA may become a completely Air dominance fifth gen fighter while F-35 does both, ie, air and ground.

In my opinion 120 F-35s and remaining AMCA will ensure that India will be the dominant air power in the region which no one and especially China and Pakistan can challenge.

 

[Saaho]

Based on the current conditions, yes. This is really a post 2030 decision. That's when we will know where we stand with AMCA.

I will say go for what is flying today and let AMCA mature into a fine platform. For an economy of size of India, affording two fifth gen platform is no issue. I mean China did that in late 2009s. We also have a lot many squadrons to fill. As of now, about a third of IAF is not having anything to fly.

 

[randomradio]

Any contract for MRFA won't see a fighter jet rolling out from an Indian assembly line before a Tejas Mk2 rolls out.

Best course of action is to import 36 more Rafales. And ensure Tejas Mk2 is accelerated as much as possible.

As for MKI, either don't order the 12. That's idiotic. But if you are ordering 12, order for atleast 5 years. Thats economics and getting the best out of your investments.

Okay, people, even after 10 years I still have to repeat this. LCA Mk2 and Rafale are not in competition with each other. Both are necessary.

We are buying Rafales because we need 600-700 high-end jets. If the MKI was a fully Indian jet, then we would have just bought 500+ of those. But due to strategic considerations as an importer, and cost, we are forced to split this requirement between two countries. The additional capability Rafale provides over the MKI is just a bonus.

LCA Mk2 will never replace the Rafale/MKI combine. It doesn't matter how much people wish for it to happen, it never will. You can have 200 LCAs, 400 LCAs or even 4000 LCAs, the 200+ Rafale requirement will still remain simply due to basic physics.

LCA is a low-end jet that performs within the envelope of our search and rescue capabilities. TE jets are necessary for operations where SAR isn't possible, which is why they have two engines and are considered high end jets. There's a massive class difference between the two and this difference remains even if the LCA has better avionics.

So the IAF needs 270 MKIs, 250 Rafales, 150 AMCAs and some 300+ LCAs. This gives us 900-1000 jets, so 70% is high-end. But in reality, the IAF's true requirement is a 90% high-end force. The LCA requirement is just 120-jet strong. We simply don't have that kinda money or industry yet.

 

[randomradio]

You have every sensor which is superior that went into Su-57, and by manyfolds. So what it bring to table?
IAF rejected it for a reason.

The IAF didn't reject it due to technical reasons. Hell, they were involved in the design of the FGFA and the final design was accepted. The program ended due to political reasons. The Russians were not being accommodating and I bet the US had a lot to say back then as well. So it's not a surprise they are being accommodating with our F414 requirements, and will very likely be the main choice for AMCA's engine as well.

 

[randomradio]

If they werent thinking this, then they havent gone with indegenizing FCC for MKI, and converting MKI to fully adopt 1553 bus. Its a cost prohibitive exercise, and achieve nothing for upgrading 200 or so MKIs.
Furthur, they are not stopping there, GTRE is already upgrading Al-31's hot section.

And looks like MoD have already decided to purchase several new MKI UPG airframes, not just 12, which looks like an initial order.

I don't see the point of buying more, it's just an upgraded jet, not a modernized airframe. Meaning, if MKI was our jet, we could have made an Mk2 version like the Su-35S and kept going with production. But the vanilla MKI aircraft is at the end of its useful life. Buying anymore just means we are planning to lose more jets that we had anticipated, so that's not really good news now, is it?

The engine modernization is meant for all MKIs, so that doesn't mean anything in terms of new orders.

Upgrading the MKI is part of the MLU, it's necessary. Almost the entire aircraft will be rebuilt, and changing the basic avionics architecture is part of any MLU program. We have done even more extensive work on the Mig-29UPG and Jaguar DARIN III. M2000 is also a complete change from the original.

 

[screambowl]

Engines are an issue if you fail and have a long drawn fight like the Ukraine conflict.

It's not about you fighting a war, it could be about you supplying weapons to your strategic partner. If you want to export Mk1 you need to have both indigenous engine and imported engine.

Mk1 with indigenous engine can be sold to those where US has objection or strictly for Indian use and where US doesn't have objection then there US can also vouch for LCA Mk1 giving you upper hand in the market , finally they have to sell the engines too.

 

[Saaho]

I will say go for what is flying today and let AMCA mature into a fine platform. For an economy of size of India, affording two fifth gen platform is no issue. I mean China did that in late 2009s. We also have a lot many squadrons to fill. As of now, about a third of IAF is not having anything to fly.

Update :

I will say go for what is flying today and let AMCA mature into a fine platform. For an economy of size of India, affording two fifth gen platform is no issue. I mean China did that in late 2000s. We also have a lot many squadrons to fill. As of now, about a third of IAF is not having anything to fly.

Jags for instance should be replaced with Rafales and F-35s in nuke role. Also it should be used in similar to Force de Frappe that France uses, with a variant of Brahmos taking place of ASMP-A. Brahmos NG + Rafale will form an excellent dissuation force for China and Pakistan. Especially if range of Bramos NG can be increased to 800 KM or so.

Additional Squads of F-35s should be raised to close our sqaudron hole.

AMCA should be seen as replacement of M2K and Mig-29s that we operate. Also additional squads of AMCA.

Tejas (MK1A and MK2) should replace ALL of Mig 21s and additional squads of Tejas should be raised.

Su-30 MKI should be upgraded. India radar / Italian radar + more composite + RAM coating. Just like what Chowmeins did for J11 and J16. May be get that AL-41FS engine from russia after all. And Meteor.

 

[randomradio]

I think you are misinformed... MADL is the data link that is used for co-ordination and tactical co-operation between F-35s. F-35s, actually have multiple datalink to talk to other platforms and (for the lack of better word) elements of USAF "network". The most common link is called Link16 which is common between F-18, F-16 etc. MADL is line of sight, limited range link so, it finds use in only very specific scnarios and ONLY involving F-35s.

You can read more on this from this document from US military : https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Publications/MCTP 3-20C.pdf , go to page 73.

View attachment 32782


Now coming to the bigger question that you were asking : How will F-35s communicate with AFNet, IACCS and indian AEW&C, right? Well for that you will have to integrate Link-16 with AFNet, IACCS and indian datalink standards. So it will be really this hard?

Now given that US was more than willing to sell F-18 and F-16 and India and US have signed an Air Information Sharing agreement, I am very confident that Link 16 could be integrated with Indian system OR Link 16 to Indian data link protocol convresion is possible OR system architecture in us fighters is modular enough to replace link 16 with whatever non US customers need.

You've got the first bit right, MADL is a patrol link, the Link 16 and the upcoming TTNT are the data links. Our equivalent is the B-NET data link, none of our jets have advanced patrol links. The MKI has a pretty old patrol link though.

The second part is partly right, 'cause the US doesn't cooperate with anybody when it comes to comm tech. They will only allow India to replace their Link 16 with the B-NET, which the Israelis can help with. More like, they will have to do it for us. And because the Israelis are part of IACCS and AFNET, things get even more easier. So replacement is the only option. I believe only the Guardian drones will come with Link 16, but perhaps also integrated with B-NET.

 

[Saaho]

The second part is partly right, 'cause the US doesn't cooperate with anybody when it comes to comm tech. They will only allow India to replace their Link 16 with the B-NET, which the Israelis can help with. More like, they will have to do it for us. And because the Israelis are part of IACCS and AFNET, things get even more easier. So replacement is the only option. I believe only the Guardian drones will come with Link 16, but perhaps also integrated with B-NET.

Does Saab Erieye work with Link 16? Otherwise how the hell Mulla-ji's of PAF are flying F-16s with their swedish AWACS and even more with Chinese AWACS (KJ-2000 or something)?

 

[randomradio]

Actually indeed! Decision to buy or sell F-35 is PURELY political one because afterall, Israel also needs F-35 to work with like of their own Phalcon (among MANY many MANY other things). Now that reminds me, there is another nation that operates Israeli Phalcon, uses Israeli SDRs (which are highly flexible and very well suited for bridging these data link gaps). A lot of integration problems that India will face will be already solved by Israelis. To be honest, it is very like, as @randomradio also said, IF politically things go fine, we will end up inducting a variant of F-35I.


Which IMHO, is the best F-35 variant out there. But then a lot of this "IF" is political. We will have to throw a bone. And a MASSIVE bone to Lock-mart for doing a massive massive lobbying campaign to allow sale of F-35 to india. May be with Israel in the tow, it might just be possible.

That being said, what I am not at all sure of is how much IAF desires F-35 as its "high end" Fifth gen fighter. India could really go for F-35 as high end fifth gen fighter and AMCA as its low-end fifth gen fighter.

Or may be AMCA may become a completely Air dominance fifth gen fighter while F-35 does both, ie, air and ground.

In my opinion 120 F-35s and remaining AMCA will ensure that India will be the dominant air power in the region which no one and especially China and Pakistan can challenge.

We shouldn't face too many problems buying 40-60 jets. I just don't think 50% ToT is possible, so 100+ jets are out of the question. An Indian MRO is probably the limit, and it could be used to service future ME and SEA jets. That's probably the best we can get.

But the outcome you want out of it in terms of capabilities is only possible with NGAD.

 

[randomradio]

I will say go for what is flying today and let AMCA mature into a fine platform. For an economy of size of India, affording two fifth gen platform is no issue. I mean China did that in late 2009s. We also have a lot many squadrons to fill. As of now, about a third of IAF is not having anything to fly.

Yes, hence the importance of MRFA. I suppose we will know in a few months.

 

[screambowl]

Does Saab Erieye work with Link 16? Otherwise how the hell Mulla-ji's of PAF are flying F-16s with their swedish AWACS and even more with Chinese AWACS (KJ-2000 or something)?

Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C

The Saab 2000 AEW&C airborne early warning and control aircraft is a variant of the Saab 2000 regional transport turboprop aircraft equipped with the spine-mounted Saab Systems Erieye PS-890 si…

thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com

 

[randomradio]

Does Saab Erieye work with Link 16? Otherwise how the hell Mulla-ji's of PAF are flying F-16s with their swedish AWACS and even more with Chinese AWACS (KJ-2000 or something)?

Link 16 between F-16s and some parts of the PAF network, Link 17 between Chinese jets and all parts of the PAF network. So the F-16s can't talk to the JF-17 and J-10, but they can both talk to Erieye. They have no choice but to get rid of their F-16s if they wish to have seamless integration.

 

[Saaho]

We shouldn't face too many problems buying 40-60 jets. I just don't think 50% ToT is possible, so 100+ jets are out of the question. An Indian MRO is probably the limit, and it could be used to service future ME and SEA jets. That's probably the best we can get.

But the outcome you want out of it in terms of capabilities is only possible with NGAD.

I will say ditch the ToT and do reverse engineering once you get the platform. Do remember to get all the maintenance training done for Indian personnels so US does not send any of its own people for maintenance pretext.