LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

[Ankit Kumar]

If you are indigenizing flight control laws (which is costly task) of MKI, you are not doing it for just addition 2 squadrons.

My only point is that if we are restarting a stalled production line for 12 units, make atleast 40-50.

12-15 airframes a year till 2030. I don't think we need to produce flankers once we see Tejas mk2 rolling out and work on making AMCA Mk1 starting.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1774063547108274383

5th airframe of Tejas Trainer

 

[Sathya]

@Rajput Lion @randomradio
Why are indigenizing flight control laws?
In Su 30 mki upg,
Last we heard something with mirage 2000 too..
Seems we become better at it and also because of necessity for extensive modifications planned.

 

[screambowl]

Divert all funding towards LCA Mk1A & Mk2. And AMCA.

This will not happen, there are other important projects as well like artillery, ELINT, SAM, SSN development. Some how in 15-20 years India will have it's first engine for Mk2 and AMCA . And only by 2045-2050 they will be completely inducted with full squadrons.

Why are indigenizing flight control laws?

In case it malfunctions during operation the blame can be put on the law collectively and not on person or govt.

 

[randomradio]

@Rajput Lion @randomradio
Why are indigenizing flight control laws?
In Su 30 mki upg,
Last we heard something with mirage 2000 too..
Seems we become better at it and also because of necessity for extensive modifications planned.

We want full control over everything we have. Indigenizing software is now part of our procurement process.

Furthermore, in next gen aircraft, more specifically next gen avionics, the aircraft and avionics are intrinsically connected to each other. Aircraft fly based on how the avionics behave. For example, if the EW suite detects a radar signal from a particular angle, the aircraft automatically changes its flight pattern to give itself a more advantageous position. A pilot is incapable of doing that so the autopilot is integrated with the avionics, and that means we need full control over the flight control laws.

I don't believe we have planned something similar for the M2000, 'cause the core avionics are all French, so they can handle it themselves.

 

[randomradio]

Buy 36 Rafales, order 2 additional squadrons of Su30MKI over the existing 12 airframes order.

Divert all funding towards LCA Mk1A & Mk2. And AMCA.

Additional MKIs are useless, it will only serve to bolster an already bloated reserve force. A better option is to just buy more LCAs, and that's exactly what the IAF has decided to do with the 5 extra squadrons.

While the main thrust is towards LCA and AMCA, we will still need a 6-squadron stopgap jet that's been operationally proven or combat proven. It's based on our geography, we have 3 main areas to defend, and we need 2 squadrons in each. And this jet is necessary to bridge the gap between MKI (2000s) and AMCA Mk2 (2040s). And we are already a decade late.

 

[Saaho]

F-35 is not like, you sign a piece of paper, and voila. The complexities in buying F-35 are much much greater.

Sure as hell all the complexities of inducting F-35A Block 4 are much less than complexity of defending against Pakistan and Chinese Fifth gen fighters with basically a flock of pigeons.

Or one of these days you will find PAF flying a Chinese or Turkish fifth gen and our RM lamenting "Agar F-35A/Su57E/AMCA hota".

 

[Saaho]

I'm not a huge fan of the F-35A, it still needs to move a bit further into the years first. And it turns out Rafale F5 is only possible after 2035, so it needs to bridge the gap between the current F4.1 and the F5. Both are realistic only after 2030, and the F5 isn't realistic at all at this point, it's 11 years away. By then relying on imports may end.

Well, when dealing with likes of J31, J20 and KAAN, F-35 is atleast something. I have no faith in Mig-21s that we are flying right now. Nor in Mirage 2000s. And definitely not in missing 13 or so squadrons with basically no aircraft. So getting F-35As which UAE does not want to induct might not be such a bad proposition after all.

India is not getting any F35 and AMCA will not be inducted before 2040 due to engine issues.

A man can dream... Anyhow door is closed on Indian side.

 

[randomradio]

Well, when dealing with likes of J31, J20 and KAAN, F-35 is atleast something. I have no faith in Mig-21s that we are flying right now. Nor in Mirage 2000s. And definitely not in missing 13 or so squadrons with basically no aircraft. So getting F-35As which UAE does not want to induct might not be such a bad proposition after all.

Outside of a stopgap measure for 2 squadrons, the only possibility of bulk purchases is with ToT. And even the stopgap measures will come with political repercussions.

 

[Rajput Lion]

@Rajput Lion @randomradio
Why are indigenizing flight control laws?
In Su 30 mki upg,
Last we heard something with mirage 2000 too..
Seems we become better at it and also because of necessity for extensive modifications planned.

We're changing core avionics like FCR, IRST etc. which means change in the weight balance/distribution of current MKI. MKI is an unstable aircraft(RSS), so to counter this we need a new FCS. The current Russian FCS is now very obsolete. The new indigenous one will be much lighter, quicker reaction with much better integration with all our other desi avionics. We're also upgrading the engine with replacing Russian made parts with MIDHANI made parts. That may also have some impact on the weight of the engine.

The new FCS along with a lighter nose thanks to lighter radar and IRST will improve the already awesome nose pointing of MKI even further and even improve its supersonic ITR(along with improving handling/agility/ITR/STR throughout MKI's envelope). Plus desi FCS would mean we'll continue to upgrade and tweak its software for continuous growth and improvement. Not possible with foreign one.

All this has become possible because of Tejas programme. Its value can't be overstated, IMO.

 

[Arpit]

Sure as hell all the complexities of inducting F-35A Block 4 are much less than complexity of defending against Pakistan and Chinese Fifth gen fighters with basically a flock of pigeons.

Or one of these days you will find PAF flying a Chinese or Turkish fifth gen and our RM lamenting "Agar F-35A/Su57E/AMCA hota".

Lol, no. Giving one example, how you integrate MADL with IACCS and indian datalink/ODL, that is on AEW&C,,, or you want us to give vectors to F-35 over voice?
Or you want to convert whole IACCS and AfNet with American Datalink? Far better to buy more Rafale or more MKI UPG airframes, and wait for AMCA.

 

[Sathya]

We're changing core avionics like FCR, IRST etc. which means change in the weight balance/distribution of current MKI. MKI is an unstable aircraft(RSS), so to counter this we need a new FCS. The current Russian FCS is now very obsolete. The new indigenous one will be much lighter, quicker reaction with much better integration with all our other desi avionics. We're also upgrading the engine with replacing Russian made parts with MIDHANI made parts. That may also have some impact on the weight of the engine.

The new FCS along with a lighter nose thanks to lighter radar and IRST will improve the already awesome nose pointing of MKI even further and even improve its supersonic ITR(along with improving handling/agility/ITR/STR throughout MKI's envelope). Plus desi FCS would mean we'll continue to upgrade and tweak its software for continuous growth and improvement. Not possible with foreign one.

All this has become possible because of Tejas programme. Its value can't be overstated, IMO.

Do we need to change control laws to integrate various indian missiles and bombs?

 

[Rajput Lion]

Do we need to change control laws to integrate various indian missiles and bombs?

No. We've already integrated entire gamut of Indian bombs and missile on to MKI cause the main mission computer is our own. New Control laws are required to counter weight distribution change across the frame.

After Upgrade nearly 80% of MKI will be indigenous. But now we're going seriously Off-topic in the Tejas thread, lol.

 

[randomradio]

Lol, no. Giving one example, how you integrate MADL with IACCS and indian datalink/ODL, that is on AEW&C,,, or you want us to give vectors to F-35 over voice?
Or you want to convert whole IACCS and AfNet with American Datalink? Far better to buy more Rafale or more MKI UPG airframes, and wait for AMCA.

The Israelis have a solution. Our air chief was given a tour of the F-35I in Israel.

They have a parallel computer network to what the F-35 already uses, this allows the integration of non-American technologies.

Read the second page.

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Documents/2017/April%202017/0417_Grudo_Israeli.pdf

Even the maintenance of the jets will be conducted within Israel.

What it really means is any F-35 purchase will be a political decision, not a technical one. I'm sure the Israelis will have no problem with India being a part of their version.

For the US too, if India's choice is between the Su-57 and an alternative, they are going to want to provide that alternative.

Furthermore, due to extensive Israeli involvement in the IAF's aircraft avionics and overall global network, they can make the F-35I work for us better than any other imported jet.

 

[screambowl]

I don't think we need to produce flankers once we see Tejas mk2 rolling out and work on making AMCA Mk1 starting.

Achaa? And when this shubh mahurat will come? And what about the indigenous supply chain? You want to combat with China with zero indigenous engine production at home? Marvelous!! Get more Rafales to atleast have 100 4.5 gen aircrafts.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The Israelis have a solution. Our air chief was given a tour of the F-35I in Israel.

They have a parallel computer network to what the F-35 already uses, this allows the integration of non-American technologies.

Read the second page.

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Documents/2017/April%202017/0417_Grudo_Israeli.pdf

Even the maintenance of the jets will be conducted within Israel.

What it really means is any F-35 purchase will be a political decision, not a technical one. I'm sure the Israelis will have no problem with India being a part of their version.

For the US too, if India's choice is between the Su-57 and an alternative, they are going to want to provide that alternative.

Furthermore, due to extensive Israeli involvement in the IAF's aircraft avionics and overall global network, they can make the F-35I work for us better than any other imported jet.

Rafale is the best bet for us along with Su-57M/Su-60MKI. F-35 just doesn't suit us, IMO.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

This will not happen, there are other important projects as well like artillery, ELINT, SAM, SSN development. Some how in 15-20 years India will have it's first engine for Mk2 and AMCA . And only by 2045-2050 they will be completely inducted with full squadrons.

My intent was that if an investment is made for fighter aircrafts, it should be only on these.

Not that funding should be diverted from else where.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Additional MKIs are useless, it will only serve to bolster an already bloated reserve force. A better option is to just buy more LCAs, and that's exactly what the IAF has decided to do with the 5 extra squadrons.

While the main thrust is towards LCA and AMCA, we will still need a 6-squadron stopgap jet that's been operationally proven or combat proven. It's based on our geography, we have 3 main areas to defend, and we need 2 squadrons in each. And this jet is necessary to bridge the gap between MKI (2000s) and AMCA Mk2 (2040s). And we are already a decade late.

Any contract for MRFA won't see a fighter jet rolling out from an Indian assembly line before a Tejas Mk2 rolls out.

Best course of action is to import 36 more Rafales. And ensure Tejas Mk2 is accelerated as much as possible.

As for MKI, either don't order the 12. That's idiotic. But if you are ordering 12, order for atleast 5 years. Thats economics and getting the best out of your investments.

 

[Arpit]

Rafale is the best bet for us along with Su-57M/Su-60MKI. F-35 just doesn't suit us, IMO.

You have every sensor which is superior that went into Su-57, and by manyfolds. So what it bring to table?
IAF rejected it for a reason.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Achaa? And when this shubh mahurat will come? And what about the indigenous supply chain? You want to combat with China with zero indigenous engine production at home? Marvelous!! Get more Rafales to atleast have 100 4.5 gen aircrafts.

Engines are an issue if you fail and have a long drawn fight like the Ukraine conflict.

Mechanisms exist to ensure serviceable aircrafts long enough in our case. Our worst engines will perform long enough to see the war turn nuclear if it comes to that.