we need to give the integration to some third party , let them make money if they can sell it. HAL needs to start looking for marekt other than IAF if it really wants to be a leading exporter or manufacturer. They can focus on jet trainers or heli's where they will have fighting chance instead of forever depending on IAF who always want the moon.
LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions
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M-88, as it is, produces less wet thrust than F404 and is slightly smaller and lighter. If we replace F404 IN20 with it than the center of gravity/weight may change. Plus IN20 produces around 85KN wet thrust. M-88 in its stock form(75KN wet thrust) will be underpowered for Tejas MK1A. To get more thrust(dry/wet) from it, Safran/SNECMA/HAL would need to tinker with "inlet diameter(for better air flow)" of M-88/Tejas. I think certification would also take some time. All in all, if GE F404 fails, Tejas program is royally screwed.
Another option could be EJ200 as it makes adequate power. But it's longer than F404, so will take years of modification and certification which the IAF can't afford at all.
Tejas designed with F404 & Kaveri in mind.
If not F404, alternative will be Kaveri only.
Better to get Kaveri going even if it's under powered. Otherwise indigenous line will screwed..
Personally I think we are over thinking..
F404 will be delivered..
Lca Mk2 would not have been approved , if F414 is not on cards.
I don't think HAL has any such ambition , the recent promotions are all due to Govt pressure & it bears very little fruit in the long term. It will be like this for many more years. Deep down they are just happy to build stuff if given drawings and supplies plus do MRO. HAL will never transition from a primarily MRO setup to a corporate OEM setup until the guaranteed Govt orders and shortfall coverage lifelines are taken off.
M88 has been tested and also certified for 60/90 KN thrust. Please believe me. This engine is good to go to 110Kn as well. Its core is fit for that thrust level.
What is planned with GE 404? It's a done deal. we should wait for some more time. If they are saying they will deliver, let's wait... Swapping with a new engine will be another pain in the axx for certification and testing. And if we are searching for a new engine, go with Kaveri, and if you don't have a solution, find a partner for the GE 414 engine equivalent or higher thrust plan now. You can't just wake up one day and say, Let's get an engine from Russia, France, or the UK; it won't work like that. It seems like GOI defense projects are the last priority now, and with the opposition talking about freebies, I don't think there will be much effort on defense upgrades.
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Safran developed a 60/90 kN M-88 prototype for the UAE during the first iteration of the Dassault proposal, when the UAE was very demanding and wanted to change everything: the radar, the engine, etc. This engine proved its worth during tests. In addition, the NGF demonstrator (the main aircraft in the SCAF programme) will fly with a 110 kN M-88 because the definitive engine will not be ready in 2028-29. All this is possible because right from the initial design of the M-88 its core, i.e. the hot parts, was designed to be able to be used for a family of engines ranging from 75 to 115 kN.
SCAF : PREMIERS TESTS DU MOTEUR DU FUTUR AVION DE 6ÈME GÉNÉRATION NGF
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
SCAF : INITIAL TESTS ON THE ENGINE OF THE FUTURE 6TH GENERATION NGF AIRCRAFT
Air & Cosmos, January 12
DGA and Safran have just announced a "major" test as part of the development of the engine for the 6th generation NGF aircraft, the central pillar in the SCAF programme. The test of this prototype, developed as part of the Turenne programme and derived from the M88 powering the Rafale, is the culmination of five years' work.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
SCAF : INITIAL TESTS ON THE ENGINE OF THE FUTURE 6TH GENERATION NGF AIRCRAFT
Air & Cosmos, January 12
DGA and Safran have just announced a "major" test as part of the development of the engine for the 6th generation NGF aircraft, the central pillar in the SCAF programme. The test of this prototype, developed as part of the Turenne programme and derived from the M88 powering the Rafale, is the culmination of five years' work.
Then there is no point in persisting with them for long term, it is like throwing good money after bad money. If IAF/govt wants a product with at least some updated tech not outdated black boxes its high time we started moving away from them. We need to do some thing like we are doing in space sector. Encourage small companies which can be eventually nurtured to be at least become great integrators.
All the wrist-slitting over the GE engine delay in the Social media is laughable. There is no conspiracy here, the supply chain problems has wrecked the entire Aerospace industry, Boeing is paying billions in penalty to their customers, Pratt and Whitney is paying Billions to their customers for the delay in engine supply and engine repair.
Heck, Even Airbus, the best run company in the industry is not able to supply sufficient number of aeroplanes to their customers. So, no need to worry, GE will start supplying engines soon. Everyone should worry more about HAL whether they will able to fulfil their lofty promises about producing enough airframes in the next one year.
Heck, Even Airbus, the best run company in the industry is not able to supply sufficient number of aeroplanes to their customers. So, no need to worry, GE will start supplying engines soon. Everyone should worry more about HAL whether they will able to fulfil their lofty promises about producing enough airframes in the next one year.
Obviously certification & testing with a new engine will be a PITA but wrt long term it has better future. HAL should have stuck with kaveri , at least we would have some thing in operational state.
Those are all quality control issues, they may hold good for western markets where the regulators have greater control over enforcement. They would hardly care if they sold a dud to HAL.
IAF’s plans hit as Tejas delivery schedule goes for a toss because of GE engine delay
GE is said to have informed that it will deliver first 2 engines by September end. Even in best case scenario, IAF is unlikely to reach sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons by 2042.
theprint.in
Engines for LCA-MK1 jets delayed, HAL prepares back-up plan with used engines to begin deliveries
Delay in engine deliveries has further delayed the delivery of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)-Mk1A by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to the Indian Air Force (IAF). There is further delay of a few months in the delivery of F-404 engines by General Electric and HAL is now preparing a back up to install used engines. Subsequently, delivery of the first LCA-Mk1A to the IAF now aimed for November looks highly unlikely.
“Not a single engine has been received at the moment. They are now expected to be delivered from September onwards,” a defence official in the know said. “Since the engines have not arrived, HAL has come up with an alternate plan to install used engines on the initial batch of jets as an interim measure,” the official stated. The IAF is also involved in this process of using Category-2 or used engines as it is a temporary measure till the new engines arrive for which HAL is constantly engaged with GE, officials said.
In February 2021, the Defence Ministry had signed a ₹48,000 crore deal with HAL for 83 LCA-Mk1A, a more capable fighter than the current LCA-MK1 in service. Following this, in August 2021 HAL signed a $716 mn deal with GE Aviation for 99 F404 aircraft engines and support services for the LCA-Mk-1A. As per contract, three LCA-MK1A were to be delivered to the IAF in February 2024 and 16 aircraft per year for subsequent five years.
In response to questions from The Hindu on the delays, end-June a GE Aerospace spokesperson had said, “The aerospace industry continues to experience unprecedented supply chain pressures. GE Aerospace is working with our partner HAL and suppliers to resolve constraints and deliver F404-IN20 engines.”
Another defence official said expectation is that at least one LCA-Mk1A jet is delivered by year end and half a squadron or eight to nine jets by the end of this fiscal year.
Officials stated that manufacturing of the jets is underway at HAL and while there were other supply chain issues, the primary hold up is the engine delay. Even if some number of engines are delivered in the next few months, small batch of jets can delivered within short time frame, officials asserted.
For IAF the delay is alarming, as the LCA is going to constitute a bulk of the IAF in the next few decades and key to arresting the fighter squadron strength from going below 30 squadrons in the near term and subsequently increase the strength.
In addition to the 83 Mk1A aircraft on order, the Defence ministry has given preliminary approval for procurement of another 97 LCA-Mk1A. This would eventually make 180 LCA-MK1 jets and 220 jets of the MK1 variant. The combined cost of the 180 Mk1As is an estimated of ₹1.15 lakh crore.
In addition, a larger and more capable LCA-Mk2 is under development which will be powered by the GE F-414 engines. A deal to license manufacture the F-414 engines in India is in advanced stages. As of now, the IAF has committed to procuring around 120 LCA-Mk2.
The delay is obviously very painful for both IAF and Indian defence enthusiasts, but once the jets start to get delivered in due course all doubts are going to get allayed, IMO.
All this is a cooked up story. The airframes and complete aircraft minus the engine are ready. These airframes can also be flight tested with reserve engines available with HAL and certified fit for handover to IAF. Once the new engines come, it will take just 8 hrs to replace the old engines and abt 5 hours to install a new engine in case the airframe is without an engine. Within a month all such stored airframes can be delivered to IAF. Engine is just one of the components of the aircraft. It takes more time to build an airframe than it takes to make an engine.
The bigger question is will they test it with the reserve engines, or they want to test it with new engines to avoid any botch ups later, in case some malfunction occurs in future, they might put the blame that because the aircrafts were tested with reserve ones not the new ones, we all know how easy it is for CAG and others to pin point.
After HAL completes its production test flights, IAF does its own Acceptance Test Flights. Once IAF accepts the aircraft, it means they are fully satisfied with the aircraft and aircraft is fit for induction in squandron service. So we have checks at every stage to ensure there are no Botch ups.