LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

[Speedster1]

India may well have 70 nos GE F-404 TFs but how many numbers of Mk-1s have we produced ? Add the trainers ( haven't kept count of it ) to it , the various TDs & prototypes including Naval prototypes & we can see how most of it would have been consumed .

A figure of 10-15% is kept in reserve for emergencies which is what we're utilising now .

Please note that GE Production Plan of ALL the TFs it manufactures doesn't exceed 100 nos per annum. As far as our production plan goes in sync with the agreement we've with GE they were contracted to deliver 12 nos GE F-404 per annum.

We could stretch that figure but it wouldn't be by much. In any case we can't do so for another couple of years as GE like most of the aerospace industry in the west is dependant on its supply chains which has still not recovered fully from the after effects of the COVID pandemic.

The 24 nos production plan by HAL was its way of demonstrating their mfg prowess & commitment to the project. Was it fake news generated by HAL ? No . Was it posturing on their part ? Yes , to an extent , given the bad blood prevailing between HAL & IAF due to historical reasons especially production planning & schedules.

HAL can now turn around & tell everyone from IAF to the MoD that they've created facilities for the mfg of upto 24 FAs within 2 years from date which can also cater to export if need be , but if the production plans of GE doesn't exceed 12 or say 16 ( which should be the maximum they can deliver us ) how's it the fault of HAL ?

These corporate games are played all the time by senior management of all major corporations which anybody with experience of it in the Corporate World will immediately recognise.

Ideally we should have gone in for local production of the F 404s too. Probably we will after inking the agreement with GE for the F 414 TFs , if we want yo stabilise the production of the 2nd tranche of 97 nos Mk-1a to avoid nasty surprises like what we're receiving now.

RoK has localised the production of the F 404s . Apart from some vital parts which is sourced directly from GE supply chain they're not dependent on GE for the TFs. Comparing our situation to theirs for the F 404 is chalk & cheese , really.

There's also the GE investor call report which @marich01 could probably help us out with. All their production plans for their various TFs are clearly given out there . Whatever I've posted above can be corroborated there . Ezsasa shared these details on D F I some time back. The forum being defunct , I couldn't trace it as a lot of data has disappeared.

The image of the US MIC has taken a beating with the QC issues at Boeing and now, this. You'd have thought Western manufacturers were superior to their Russian counterparts in terms of timely deliveries and support.

I understand there are supply chain problems all over but the timing couldn't be worse for us.

 

[Sathya]

The image of the US MIC has taken a beating with the QC issues at Boeing and now, this. You'd have thought Western manufacturers were superior to their Russian counterparts in terms of timely deliveries and support.

I understand there are supply chain problems all over but the timing couldn't be worse for us.

What's preventing us from getting make in India for F404 from the same facility of F414?

Same company, same technology.. anyways the core tech won't be given for both types of engine..

At the least we can make sure there won't be any delays in getting engines for 97 Mk1A.

 

[HariPrasad]

EJ200 did not exist when F404 was chosen for the LCA program in 1985. You are confusing it with F414.

There were 2 engine in competition which met all technical parameters. GE 404 and EJ200. GE 404 was chosen on price criterion. EJ 200 powers Eurofighter and it is there since EURO fighter is operational.

 

[HariPrasad]

The LCA was conceived as a one-for-one replacement of the MiG-21. It was designed to fit the same footprint to be compatible with HAS and other infra at airbases. The result was a densely packed ac with little space for new gear.

ADA was considering a delta canard design initially, which would have path-breaking for the time, but eventually chose the compound delta config that we have today.

That is true but we end up making suboptimal design.

 

[randomradio]

There were 2 engine in competition which met all technical parameters. GE 404 and EJ200. GE 404 was chosen on price criterion. EJ 200 powers Eurofighter and it is there since EURO fighter is operational.

You are referring to the F414 for LCA Mk2. When F404 was chosen, EJ200 didn't exist.

 

[randomradio]

F404 production is not realistic due to the small number of planes ordered alongside unpredictive timeframe of delivery. F414 production is based on 500+ engines. 200+ each for LCA and TEDBF and about 120 for AMCA. That's 520-550 not counting exports or an expansion of orders.

Engine spares seem to be 4 per squadron. HAL also have some spare engines. So 8 new engines and 8 old engines can give us a full squadron.

HAL's third line is also active, the first jet is expected to roll out by Nov/Dec. HAL now plans to deliver 16 from next year, Mar 26, and 24 from the year after. GE should be able to match deliveries by then, it's 3 years away.

GE's new expansion is massive. Apart from our order for 220+ engines, the US needs 400+ engines for the Red Hawk, and SoKo may want 100+ if their new F-50 works out. Then there's exports, Boeing believes they will sell well over 2500 Red Hawks in total.

There's even an LCA-class F-7 planned for the USAF.

 

[Speedster1]

That is true but we end up making suboptimal design.

The design was frozen in the 1990s. Changing the design would have meant cost-overruns and more delays.

Frankly, it's a miracle that they got this far despite constantly changing IAF GSQRs, tech denial, lack of funding.

Remember GE or some such US company writing to George Fernandes to tell him the LCA would never fly!

But we are over the hump now in ac and heli design.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I thought the whole aim of the discussion was whether HAL would meet its deadline of mfg 83 odd Mk-1a by 2029. It's becoming increasingly clear that it won't for no fault of it .

In the meanwhile goal post shifting by RST has begun in right earnest pointing out to everything irrelevant to HAL meeting the set deadline , like the requirements of F 404 TFs for the Red Hawks or the F-50 or the prospective F-7 , none of which will go into mass mfg in the next 3-4 years.

 

[Gautam]

LCA Tejas HUD:

HUD Symbology:

HUD & Litening EO pod footage of Tejas firing an AAM to shoot down aerial Target (5 min 36 sec):

 

[Ashwin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1833141935051096195

 

[randomradio]

We need greater engine numbers from FY27, that's 3 years from now.

So FY25 = 8 engines. FY26 = 12-16 engines. FY27 = 24+ engines. That's about 50+ aircraft delivered by FY27, leaving only 33 jets for the next 2 years, when deliveries will be 24/year. Contract deadline is FY29. We are very likely to see the next batch of 97 to be delivered from FY29, a year before the deadline for the first 83. So that's 24/year from FY29 to FY32. Then LCA Mk2 from FY33.

Forget goalposts, Ignorants doesn't even know what game is being played.

 

[Ironhide]

All this engine related argument is useless if HAL is not able to produce the airframes at the rate they are boasting about, I will be very happy if HAL is able to reach 16 airframes per year in the next couple of years time.

 

[_Anonymous_]

16 TFs by 2026 & 24 + (??) TFs thereafter. All this while we've zero confirmation of this or anything else in the public domain.

Presumably RST has access to documents we plebians don't in which case he should be kind enough to share it out here to prevent us from accusing him of R&D or 8 pm posts once again .

The issue is two fold -

There's a huge shortage of Rare Earths Material in the market since the war in Ukraine & the west sanctioning Russia with both Russia & China - the 2 main sources of RE retaliating by banning or rationing supplies of RE , for them being sanctioned.

The second is the pool of vendors for the F-404 has reduced since GE hardly had any customers for the F-404 given the two most prominent customers of it - Sweden & RoK had their own set ups to partially mfg & assemble the said TF.

GE now faces the tough task of reviving these vendors some of whom aren't too enthusiastic or on boarding a new set of vendors which is easier said than done for the volumes aren't high at the moment.

Here's where we can turn a problem into an opportunity by pitching in with our set of vendors & more importantly asking for the setting up of an assembly line here for the F-404 offering it not only as a source for the next batch of Mk-1s but also for any future requirement of this TF anywhere in the world.

Which brings me to the second part of the equation namely RE. Modi's visit to Russia was also to secure REs for our various projects which have been held up due to a severe shortage in the market & which the west has been banned from accessing . We certainly aren't going to approach China to bail us out .

I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong by this prediction of RST. Let me end with a gentle reminder that RST has yet to get one prediction right whereas OST or Original Story Teller aka PKS with an almost flawless record has now officially retired.

I hope RST realises what this means . This is a good opportunity for RST to begin his blog tentatively titled Trishul Redux - A Spiritual Successor to O̶S̶T̶̶ sorry PKS.

 

[marich01]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1834146251077738629

 

[Ashwin]

After Rajnath Singh flags Tejas engine delay with US, GE comes up with new delivery schedule

The American firm was to deliver 99 engines starting March this year to cater to the Air Force’s order of 83 LCA Mk1A inked in 2021.

theprint.in

Looking beyond HAL, IAF proposes public-private partnership to ramp up Tejas production line

IAF facing severe shortage in fighter strength and state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has failed to deliver. Of IAF's initial order of 40 Tejas, HAL has delivered only 36.

theprint.in

 

[Aniruddha]

After Rajnath Singh flags Tejas engine delay with US, GE comes up with new delivery schedule

The American firm was to deliver 99 engines starting March this year to cater to the Air Force’s order of 83 LCA Mk1A inked in 2021.

theprint.in

Looking beyond HAL, IAF proposes public-private partnership to ramp up Tejas production line

IAF facing severe shortage in fighter strength and state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has failed to deliver. Of IAF's initial order of 40 Tejas, HAL has delivered only 36.

theprint.in

The Pvt sector won't even entertain an order of 40 units

 

[Ashwin]

The Pvt sector won't even entertain an order of 40 units

They will if they have a sugar daddy like the government. HAL is a monopoly and they will get paid irrespective of any number orders.

 

[RedCannon]

Might be a pretty lame question but why are we not moving to F414.
1. Similar dimensions and weight class.
2. Much better and with more thrust.
3. Most importantly is available now.

Mk1A with 404s from the start seems like a mistake but even if we need 2 more years for recertification still worth it. we should just get directly to 414s as the availablity of 404s is only going to get worse.

What am I missing? (We anyway would have to do it as MLU later)

 

[Ashwin]

Might be a pretty lame question but why are we not moving to F414.
1. Similar dimensions and weight class.
2. Much better and with more thrust.
3. Most importantly is available now.

Mk1A with 404s from the start seems like a mistake but even if we need 2 more years for recertification still worth it. we should just get directly to 414s as the availablity of 404s is only going to get worse.

What am I missing? (We anyway would have to do it as MLU later)

Dimensions are only similar not same. In aeronautics, there are no small changes. It will require redesign of the intake to additional airflow requirements. To make use of additional thrust airframe will need changes. Everything will need redesign and recertification. In engineering its all about tradeoffs. Additional thrust cannot be free. It can be a maintenance burden or less economical.

Both engines suffer from supply chain constraints. 414 is not better off. Mk1A will serve for next 30 years without need for replacement.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

After Rajnath Singh flags Tejas engine delay with US, GE comes up with new delivery schedule

The American firm was to deliver 99 engines starting March this year to cater to the Air Force’s order of 83 LCA Mk1A inked in 2021.

theprint.in

Looking beyond HAL, IAF proposes public-private partnership to ramp up Tejas production line

IAF facing severe shortage in fighter strength and state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has failed to deliver. Of IAF's initial order of 40 Tejas, HAL has delivered only 36.

theprint.in

If the deliveries were supposed to happen from March. Then I don't think GE is at fault.

Engine supply chains for even commercial aircrafts hasn't stabilised yet.

The real problem is Government of India, IAF and MoD signing the GE404 order too late.

Even now we are talking about doubling our production of Tejas Mk1A with 97 aircraft order.

We should first of all immediately order 200 more GE404 engines. The long lead procurement times are long.

If we dont order the engines for 97 aircrafts, we will be having the same engine scarcity discussion in 2029.