LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

[Speedster1]

I'm still wondering what this means for Navy's Rafale-M deal though.

Should go through sooner than later, especially given the political capital involved. Deliveries are likely to be staggered over a longer period of time though compared to the 3+ years it took for the IAF's birds. After all, the IN gets the smallest share of the defence budget.

At the agonizing pace things are going right now, the IAF might never get more Rafales. Not in the foreseeable future anyway.

One solution imo might be to place the Rafale-Ms under a joint command when they are not embarked. Leveraging existing IAF training and maintenance infra should reduce costs as well (Perhaps they could build SBTF type ramp at Hashimara or Ambala for the IN crews to keep their carrier TO skills current). The UK RAF has just such a structure controlling both its own and RN F-35Bs.

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In peace time, the IN can make do with N-LCA Mk1s and a couple of two-seater Rafale-Ms off the carriers for routine training ops.

 

[Ashwin]

 

[randomradio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851299138555789578

Er... This is called MRFA, Indranil. Had you followed my posts since 2016-17, you would have known about a replacement program.

 

[randomradio]

What's this multi vendor tender?

MRFA.

Is this roundabout way of getting Rafale?

Yes.

This is the way for the IAF to know what's out there. And GoI gets to play more in the diplomacy circles for the next 5 years. In the meantime, next gen tech is developed.

Seems like they have sorted out Anil ambani " Controversy "

Difficult to say, but Dassault can always choose another partner.

 

[randomradio]

Have long maintained that MRFA is nothing but a time-pass.

No, it's a serious program. Stuff like this affects sovereign ratings.

And so is the next impending version of this tender, whatever it'll be called.

MRFA itself, as per the RFI in 2018.

The real reason, which no one will say out loud, is simply that we don't have the the kind of money needed to procure 114 foreign 4.5 gen jets + cost of ToT & local production line.

We do.

The most viable way forward was always to just buy 36 more Rafales off the shelf, then put all resources toward Tejas Mk2 program which by this point has turned into an MRCA in it's own right comparable to F-21/Gripen-E.

LCA Mk2 doesn't meet the objectives of MRFA. And 36 more Rafales is too less, and numbers are necessary with ToT.

The only outstanding requirement that Mk2 couldn't fulfill was of a DPSA with long legs. Two more squadrons of Rafales would have been enough to plug that hole, especially when supported by Loyal Wingmen & Rocket Forces which weren't part of the pictute before. Everything else that MRFA was needed for, Tejas Mk2 can manage just fine (including Deep Strike on Western front for which we don't need much range, allowing us to divert the Ambala squadron of Rafale to LAC as well).

India is a big country, needs 6-8 squadrons.

I'm still wondering what this means for Navy's Rafale-M deal though.

Nothing. That's going to go on separately.

 

[randomradio]

Deliveries are likely to be staggered over a longer period of time though compared to the 3+ years it took for the IAF's birds.

Why? Dassault is very likely looking to assemble them in India to guarantee victory in MRFA.

After all, the IN gets the smallest share of the defence budget.

Not anymore. Last year, they spent the most, the same as before. The IA gets the least.

At the agonizing pace things are going right now, the IAF might never get more Rafales. Not in the foreseeable future anyway.

2034-35 is the most optimal time. So a signature by 2030-31.

One solution imo might be to place the Rafale-Ms under a joint command when they are not embarked. Leveraging existing IAF training and maintenance infra should reduce costs as well (Perhaps they could build SBTF type ramp at Hashimara or Ambala for the IN crews to keep their carrier TO skills current). The UK RAF has just such a structure controlling both its own and RN F-35Bs.

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In peace time, the IN can make do with N-LCA Mk1s and a couple of two-seater Rafale-Ms off the carriers for routine training ops.

Not a good idea. We need a more independent IN, that's why they are going for their own training system separate from the IAF.

During war with China, we will need carrier presence in the BoB to prevent the Chinese from coming through Myanmar while also creating a presence in depth across NE India.

 

[randomradio]

As far as I can remember

1.Cobham delayed Nose cone & Refuel probe - 2 years before FOC.

2. MoD bargaining with HAL - 2 years

3.GE now delayed - 2 years .

Pretty sure informed members can add more..

Chobham delay did not impact Mk1A. MoD negotiations led to a year long delay.

GE delay is unfortunate, but at least the jets are in production. In any case the delay is 1 year and the current schedule still holds.

 

[Speedster1]

Why? Dassault is very likely looking to assemble them in India to guarantee victory in MRFA.

Depends on minimum order quantity being met (100). We've no concept of clubbing orders and negotiating from a position of strength. The late CDS Rawat in fact advocated for placing orders in smaller batches.

Not anymore. Last year, they spent the most, the same as before. The IA gets the least.

IN's percentage share of budget allocation across the 3 services is lowest at under 20%.

2034-35 is the most optimal time. So a signature by 2030-31.

I wonder if the rickety M29Ks could soldier on till then. IN pilots likely make a small prayer every time they strap into one of those birds.

Not a good idea. We need a more independent IN, that's why they are going for their own training system separate from the IAF.

And not tap into the massive training infra (simulators, flying instructors, etc) that already exists within the country? In the 1990s, IN Harriers flew DACT sorties with IAF M29 and other jets for years before they retired, earning a solid reputation among IAF crews. Don't think that's going to change.

During war with China, we will need carrier presence in the BoB to prevent the Chinese from coming through Myanmar while also creating a presence in depth across NE India.

In the Indian context, carriers are not first responders. They are pretty much the cavalry. We'd need proper SOPs for Rafale-Ms to return to their home bases in time and workup for carrier deployment when the balloon goes up.

 

[_Anonymous_]

What's this multi vendor tender?

Another variation of the MMRCA.

Same MMRCA with same 6 participants instead of preferential Rafale?

Same.

They are ruling out Rafale purchase from Dassault France because of 10 year order book.

Well who's to blame for it ? The original MMRCA tender was scrapped in 2016 & the RFI for the modified MRFA tender went out in 2017 IIRC. What was the GoI doing for 7 years ?

If the threat perception dictated we needed the Rafales & 36 nos weren't enough , it was their job to get them . If the procurement mode was an issue they could have sat down with the IAF & given it time say upto 2020.

Once it was known the IAF wouldn't budge & in view of what we saw at the LAC it was for the GoI to read the riot act to the IAF & if they were still recalcitrant fire the CAS & send a message across but get the damned planes.

Up until 2021 or 22 I bought into the snake oil that RST here has been peddling since forever on costs. What justification can anyone offer when we're seeing the infrastructure development budget for FY 25 fixed for ~13 billion USD whereas the overall defence budget goes down by a few decimal points ?

And both these have been trends for the past 2-3 years where we've reached the point to pose the question - is the GoI actually serious about defence at all ? You can't go about developing infrastructure on the LAC & not back it up with proper arms ammo platforms support systems logistics etc for the armed forces which is precisely where we are in the present.

Also non controversial model by make in India without imports ?

Short hand for the GoI - I'm chicken sh!t & willing to bleed the exchequer by paying 50-60% more on the procurement due to escalation of costs by MII that too for equipment which will come post the day of reckoning presumably to make up squadron numbers.

Means all made in India without imports?

Is this roundabout way of getting Rafale?

Looks like it .

Eurofighter can be bought earlier than Rafale but you are ruling out imports..

"Taking the safe path here " meaning the GoI is willing to risk defeat in a war against China but not go in for what's needed in a timely manner.

This is a potent & deadly combination of what happens when you are too clever by half by dragging on procurements to eternity by bargaining for pennies , no proper defence policy , no proper procurement policy , are too chicken sh!t to take decisions which could attract political opposition , etc . In short Murphy's law sets in .

Frankly given the multiplicity of partners I really don't see how going in for the Eurofighter helps. It adds to our headaches. To top it all the IAF seems to be in experimental mode a la MKIs as if we're in the 1990s or early 2000s going by the statements of the incumbent CAS.

He wants all the source codes of whichever FA we choose so that we can incorporate changes the IAF deems fit on it as if we've the resources for it be it in terms of time money men etc . Can't all these be expended on our indigenous projects like the Mk-2 or the AMCA Mk-1 or / & Mk-2 ? This actually reflects the thinking prevalent within the top echelons of the IAF.

Only contender that s having a head start in make in India is Rafale.

Seems like they have sorted out Anil ambani " Controversy "

 

[randomradio]

Depends on minimum order quantity being met (100). We've no concept of clubbing orders and negotiating from a position of strength. The late CDS Rawat in fact advocated for placing orders in smaller batches.

MRFA is for 114 jets. CDS Rawat's idea wasn't realistic.

IN's percentage share of budget allocation across the 3 services is lowest at under 20%.

That's overall, obvious given the smaller strength. But their capital allocation is now 1st or 2nd.

I wonder if the rickety M29Ks could soldier on till then. IN pilots likely make a small prayer every time they strap into one of those birds.

I was referring to IAF's 114 jets. IN's jets will come in by 2030.

Anyway, Mig-29Ks will be upgraded for use until 2040-45. TEDBF will replace them.

And not tap into the massive training infra (simulators, flying instructors, etc) that already exists within the country? In the 1990s, IN Harriers flew DACT sorties with IAF M29 and other jets for years before they retired, earning a solid reputation among IAF crews. Don't think that's going to change.

The IN's training needs are different from the IAF's, so they are creating their own training regimen.

In the Indian context, carriers are not first responders. They are pretty much the cavalry. We'd need proper SOPs for Rafale-Ms to return to their home bases in time and workup for carrier deployment when the balloon goes up.

You are not a first responder if you are acting from depth areas. Carriers will step into the game much later.

Our goal of 3 carriers means 2 will be ready for a fight.

 

[randomradio]

We have money for this program. I don't understand why people think a $7-10T economy before the first jet is supplied cannot handle such a small deal.

And the IAF is looking for source codes required for integration of weapons, not all of it. Only IDDM and Make projects have a source code Indianization requirement. MRFA will be under Make in India, so pretty much all of it will be controlled by the FOEM, with transfers related to only what's stipulated in the contract. Plus all contenders have to contractually agree to part with the minimum required before they can participate, for example, 50% minimum ToT.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Frankly I can't fathom why RST cannot fathom the point that as far as funds go we have it even as of today as compared to the tired old tune he's been trumpeting since the past few years about the future .

I just wrote we've investing ~ 13 billion USD in infrastructure in the present but have brought down our defence budget by a few decimal points & this trend has been the case for the past 3 years. I don't know what's so difficult to understand in this.

We needed the Rafales as of day before yet we're planning to get them the day after. That's the crux of my argument apart from the fact that all those projects which we've been aiming for by building up that ecosystem for the Tejas since the past 4 decades will come to fruition next decade onwards which makes one seriously question the GoI's & the IAF's priorities & sense of planning .

Then there's the issue of finances not so much as in our ability to raise it as for our willingness to spend it . That's precisely what we're seeing today unless someone here is willing to convince me we couldn't afford 2 billion USD / year from 2020 onwards upto 2030 or extended to 2033 for the purchase of say 100 Rafales in 3 tranches.

Finally there's the issue of the upcoming war against China later this decade which should've been the focal point of our preparations but which we seem to think can be handled solely by building up infrastructure on the LAC without accompanying appropriate upgradation to our war fighting capabilities , which once again dovetails neatly into our national security strategy if we indeed have one , our defence policy , our procurement policy , etc .

 

[Speedster1]

MRFA is for 114 jets

Yet if the 2016 deal is any indication, the GoI won't buy them all in one go. License production is easily 2X the cost. Today, we have a coalition govt and allies like CBN are demanding their pound of flesh.

I was referring to IAF's 114 jets. IN's jets will come in by 2030.

My bad. But there's no way this 'open tender' would yield a winner, given how the last 2 fared.

I'd put my money on a multi-tranche G2G deal with limited local assembly (FAL) and ToT of key parts like radar, EW, optics. Modi will have to break the logjam again.

The IN's training needs are different from the IAF's

The Rafale-Ms will be largely the same spec as the IAF. Except carrier TO/L for which the IN aviators could train on the N-LCA Mk1.

You are not a first responder if you are acting from depth areas. Carriers will step into the game much later.

Exactly. Which is why, co-locating both IAF and IN ac in peace time under a joint command makes sense.

 

[randomradio]

Yet if the 2016 deal is any indication, the GoI won't buy them all in one go. License production is easily 2X the cost. Today, we have a coalition govt and allies like CBN are demanding their pound of flesh.

That's HAL's superpower. As per Dassault, back during MMRCA time, local production would have been 20% cheaper than French production.

Plus production in Russia is cheaper than in India, not to mention, when the MKI deal was signed INR was 40 to a dollar, climbed to 80 by the time it was done. INR is a bit more stable and much cheaper than EUR.

My bad. But there's no way this 'open tender' would yield a winner, given how the last 2 fared.

I'd put my money on a multi-tranche G2G deal with limited local assembly (FAL) and ToT of key parts like radar, EW, optics. Modi will have to break the logjam again.

The earlier deal was doable had HAL not stepped in trying to change everything. The IAF too changed things in terms of responsibility. This time neither of the problems are going to be around. Dassault will choose its own partner and be responsible for quality.

The Rafale-Ms will be largely the same spec as the IAF. Except carrier TO/L for which the IN aviators could train on the N-LCA Mk1.

That doesn't matter. Carrier aviation is a different cup of tea compared to regular aviation where the bases don't move.

With IN planning to expand its aviation capacity, there is no need to use IAF's facilities.

Exactly. Which is why, co-locating both IAF and IN ac in peace time under a joint command makes sense.

Operationally, IN assets along with IAF's peninsular assets will be under IN. In terms of training, no. That's why they bought the Hawk. IAF's only involved in basic and intermediate training right now. They will eventually buy HTT-40 and HJT-36 to create their own independent training regimen. HAL is pushing for N-LCA as LIFT too.

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851900893706280997

Ok guys another prediction but this time from a more credible source as opposed to you know who . However still no 24 nos Mk-1a next year . Hopefully at least those predicted to come , will come. Fingers crossed .

 

[Sathya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851900893706280997

Ok guys another prediction but this time from a more credible source as opposed to you know who . However still no 24 nos Mk-1a next year . Hopefully at least those predicted to come , will come. Fingers crossed .

I didn't realize the meaning of tweet before.

Now I get it.

This fiscal 24-25 Hal will build 14 tejas mk1A.
However it ll give IAF only 5 because of engine shortage.

Remaining 9 built will be without engines in storage.. As & when engines become available ie in March 2025, Hal will deliver the rest to IAF.

 

[Saaho]

Fellas may be we should keep discussion on LCA. This MR-BS drama can go in its own thread.

Now this is an older article but very pertinent.

'It is almost as if there is a death wish for the Tejas'

The contracts with Israel Aerospace Industries will condemn the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft to a marginal presence in the IAF's future fleet.

www.rediff.com

I Quote

The MBDA, the European consortium that builds the Meteor, has repeatedly told the Indian Air Force that it would only fit that missile onto a fighter with a European airborne radar.

On October 26, the ministry of defence and the IAF watched from the sidelines as Hindustan Aeronautics signed two contracts with Israel Aerospace Industries which will condemn the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft to a marginal presence in the IAF's future fleet.

The contracts signed were for two major avionics systems that will determine the combat capability of an improved Tejas fighter called the Tejas Mark 1A.

One was for the ELM-2052 'active electronically scanned array' radar, developed by an IAI subsidiary, Elta.

The other was for Elta's 'electronic warfare' system.

All through this year, the IAF has known that MBDA would allow the Meteor missile to be integrated only with European (or, conditionally Indian) AESA radars.

Yet, the IAF remained silent while HAL's tendering processes resulted in the selection of the Israeli ELM 2052 AESA radar -- and the rejection of two European AESA radars offered by French firm Thales, and Swedish firm Saab.

The Thales radar and the Meteor missile have already been integrated into Dassault's Rafale fighter, which the IAF rates highly.

Likewise, the Meteor is already integrated with the Saab radar in the Gripen E fighter.

@Milspec @vstol Jockey OR anyone else, Is there anything that I am missing here. Why do forces let HAL make stupid and suboptimal choices? There were more than one european radars. Leonardo SELEX's Raven, Saab and Thales. Why.... not take SELEX's Raven?

 

[Saaho]

3.GE now delayed - 2 years .

Did anyone ask why did MoD and HAL not bought and kept a large inventory of F404 over 2010s? In 10 years, India could have bought and kept an inventory of 400 or so F404s. We knew we were going to need them anyways. Some in Tejas, some in even IJTs. So keep an inventory to avoid these kind of issues?

How much will F404 cost? 7-8 million a pop in 2021. 400 would cost just 3.2B max spread over 10 years. They could have made a payment schedule that pays GE as they ship the engines.

Is 320 million dollars a year that much for Indian government to secure its defence needs?

Likes of @randomradio have some really stupid reason based in babudom but I fail to see what really stopped HAL or MoD from ordering and maintaining inventory of F404s?

Its not as if India does not have a requirement for jet engines. They can make trainers etc around this engine too.

@Milspec any opinion?

Its almost as if Nehru's ghost is haunting the halls of power.... May be I am not even far from truth.

 

[Saaho]

What's this multi vendor tender?

Same MMRCA with same 6 participants instead of preferential Rafale?

They are ruling out Rafale purchase from Dassault France because of 10 year order book.

Also non controversial model by make in India without imports ?

Means all made in India without imports?

Is this roundabout way of getting Rafale?

Eurofighter can be bought earlier than Rafale but you are ruling out imports..

Only contender that s having a head start in make in India is Rafale.

Seems like they have sorted out Anil ambani " Controversy "

I believe a lot of this Multi Bandar bullshit is due to Indian govt's extreme fear of scandals. This is a stupid coallition government anyways.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Fellas may be we should keep discussion on LCA. This MR-BS drama can go in its own thread.

Now this is an older article but very pertinent.

'It is almost as if there is a death wish for the Tejas'

The contracts with Israel Aerospace Industries will condemn the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft to a marginal presence in the IAF's future fleet.

www.rediff.com

I Quote









@Milspec @vstol Jockey OR anyone else, Is there anything that I am missing here. Why do forces let HAL make stupid and suboptimal choices? There were more than one european radars. Leonardo SELEX's Raven, Saab and Thales. Why.... not take SELEX's Raven?

I don't think this is a big issue. We should get over Meteor. Unless we have 24-36 AWACS, IAF operating 6-8 huge comm satellites , the IFF fitted onboard a Tejas like aircraft has no chance of being useful against an unidentified vector beyond 70-80 km in case of an ongoing war like scenario with Pakistan.

No professional pilot will fire a BVR that far normally. That's an exceptional scenario, having chances of less than 5%.

Normally the BVR would be fired at 25-50ish km range. There the missile would have enough battery and propulsion to kill its target.

And remember Tejas Mk1A will be replacing the capabilities we would today use a Mig-21 or Mig-23 or a Mig-27 would provide at best.

And therefore choosing a proven partner over Europen firm SAAB (providing radar tech to Pakistan for AEWs) and Raven (offered to Pakistan for JF17) is safer. And has no downsides.