LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

I have already lost faith in HAL, ADA and DRDO on LCA as by the time it will get ready the world will definitely shift to 5th generation fighters like Rafale F4, Gripen E, f-35. LCA Mk1A will be monkey plane and IAF will keep crying and shifting goal posts and HAL ADA and DRDO again doing catch up game and testing till eternity....😠😠😠😠😠

You are right

The narrative will soon change in favour of Fifth Gen planes

After 2019 elections IAF will start making noises that LCA delays has crippled it's entire Force planning

Given what HAL has quoted for MK1A

the prospects of 83 planes look unrealistic

That too might be capped at 40 odd planes

And if first squadron of MK 2 is going to be operational in 2028 then what is the IAF supposed to do in a two front situation
 
That would also mean we will be left with 250 of Sukhoi and 72 Rafale to defend our nation from 2 of the world's most notorious countries Pakistan which We will be able to crush and China we won't be able to even stand...... And if it's 2 front war then it will be gang bang for India...

We will keep making And Upgrading Sukhois
Forever
 
If MK 1 A is 2023 then what about MK 2

Mk2 is expected in 2028.

Rafales alone won't be enough

One more plane has to come

Yeah, the Mk1A. Followed by Mk2. Mk2 was supposed to be the Gripen, but that's out of the picture for now.

Or we can have a package deal with Russia

Su 57 FGFA reborn with Armata and Bulava thrown in ,what do you say

PAK FA is too far in the future.
 
That would also mean we will be left with 250 of Sukhoi and 72 Rafale to defend our nation from 2 of the world's most notorious countries Pakistan which We will be able to crush and China we won't be able to even stand...... And if it's 2 front war then it will be gang bang for India...

To be fair, the Mig-29, M-2000 and Jaguars will still be there, and all three are very good fighters. And by the time we get 72 Rafale, we will also have received a similar number of LCAs with AESA radar. And we will have a lot of modern SAMs by then.

The Chinese will find the Rafale too tough to crack with their current inventory. But we need PAK FA in the long term, right after our Rafale and LCA needs are fulfilled.
 
You are right

The narrative will soon change in favour of Fifth Gen planes

After 2019 elections IAF will start making noises that LCA delays has crippled it's entire Force planning

Given what HAL has quoted for MK1A

the prospects of 83 planes look unrealistic

That too might be capped at 40 odd planes

And if first squadron of MK 2 is going to be operational in 2028 then what is the IAF supposed to do in a two front situation


your post brings the interesting question,


if HAL comes under IAF, pricing will be left to the IAF to decide

how much pricing IAF can buy from vendor , how much of margin to be kept for HAL

it will be left to IAF.

So IAF will be responsible for make or break of Tejas
 
To be fair, the Mig-29, M-2000 and Jaguars will still be there, and all three are very good fighters. And by the time we get 72 Rafale, we will also have received a similar number of LCAs with AESA radar. And we will have a lot of modern SAMs by then.

The Chinese will find the Rafale too tough to crack with their current inventory. But we need PAK FA in the long term, right after our Rafale and LCA needs are fulfilled.
Why can't we equip our sukhois with uttam or any other AESA? No news about this.
 
MKI will get a new Russian AESA from NIIP.
BARS radar of Su30 i made in India. Replacing with Russian AESA may not be preferred. Instead Indian AESA may be preferred.

You are speaking of Super Sukhoi upgrade to get new Al41F engines and AESA radar. That has not been confirmed yet as India wants technology for manufacturing the items. SInce entire Su30 is made in India as of now, getting imported parts is something that may harm Indian interests.
You are right

The narrative will soon change in favour of Fifth Gen planes

After 2019 elections IAF will start making noises that LCA delays has crippled it's entire Force planning

Given what HAL has quoted for MK1A

the prospects of 83 planes look unrealistic

That too might be capped at 40 odd planes

And if first squadron of MK 2 is going to be operational in 2028 then what is the IAF supposed to do in a two front situation
The delay in MK1A is not because of incompetence but because IAF has made several demands of getting most advanced equipments. Tejas MK2 is also being made simultaenously. The Tejas MK1 is being upgraded mostly by HAL as the IAF demands pertain to avionics, SDR, IFR etc and not design changes which is the specialty of ADA.

So, the technology that will be incorporated in Tejas MK1 will directly be transposed into MK1A with upgrades. This in turn will be directly put into Mk2. Since, Mk2 is already in advanced stages of design and prototype making is about to begin, the two developments will be parallel. MoD has again stated that the FOC for MK2 will be 2025. There is no reason to distrust it. MK2 will have similar technology as MK1 but will be bigger in size and some components will be internal. 2028 is a hoax which I never heard of before.
To be fair, the Mig-29, M-2000 and Jaguars will still be there, and all three are very good fighters. And by the time we get 72 Rafale, we will also have received a similar number of LCAs with AESA radar. And we will have a lot of modern SAMs by then.

The Chinese will find the Rafale too tough to crack with their current inventory. But we need PAK FA in the long term, right after our Rafale and LCA needs are fulfilled.
Rafale is a 4th generation plane. Its engine thrust of 50/75kN is a big drawback. I don't see any reason to glorify it. Su30 is more robust than rafale.

Also, give me source that MK1A is being readied by 2023 and not 2021. When was this announcement made?
 
BARS radar of Su30 i made in India. Replacing with Russian AESA may not be preferred. Instead Indian AESA may be preferred.

You are speaking of Super Sukhoi upgrade to get new Al41F engines and AESA radar. That has not been confirmed yet as India wants technology for manufacturing the items. SInce entire Su30 is made in India as of now, getting imported parts is something that may harm Indian interests.

AESA is preferred, and it is a priority upgrade. The MKI MLU's tech specs will be done by the Russians. The MLUs themselves will happen in India through ToT.

Rafale is a 4th generation plane. Its engine thrust of 50/75kN is a big drawback. I don't see any reason to glorify it. Su30 is more robust than rafale.

The thrust is more than enough. The Rafale is many times superior to today's MKI.

Also, give me source that MK1A is being readied by 2023 and not 2021. When was this announcement made?

Give me a recent source saying that it will be available in 2021. We haven't even started production of the 20 Mk1 FOC version, so how can Mk1A production start? The earlier 2021 deadline was for Mk1 receiving FOC in end 2016 to mid 2017, which would have allowed Mk1A production to start this year.

But to make up for the delay, HAL plans to increase the production rate of the Mk1A by a significant margin.
 
the prospects of 83 planes look unrealistic

That too might be capped at 40 odd planes

HAL is in fact making a request to add another 60 Mk1As to the 83 ordered.

And if first squadron of MK 2 is going to be operational in 2028 then what is the IAF supposed to do in a two front situation

Our most critical need is 123 LCA and 72 Rafale. Followed by a tender contract before 2023.

Before we get the first Mk2 squadron, we will have reached our comfort level with more than 35 squadrons.

But we most definitely need 5 squadrons of FGFA.
 
BARS radar of Su30 i made in India. Replacing with Russian AESA may not be preferred. Instead Indian AESA may be preferred.

You are speaking of Super Sukhoi upgrade to get new Al41F engines and AESA radar. That has not been confirmed yet as India wants technology for manufacturing the items. SInce entire Su30 is made in India as of now, getting imported parts is something that may harm Indian interests.

The delay in MK1A is not because of incompetence but because IAF has made several demands of getting most advanced equipments. Tejas MK2 is also being made simultaenously. The Tejas MK1 is being upgraded mostly by HAL as the IAF demands pertain to avionics, SDR, IFR etc and not design changes which is the specialty of ADA.

So, the technology that will be incorporated in Tejas MK1 will directly be transposed into MK1A with upgrades. This in turn will be directly put into Mk2. Since, Mk2 is already in advanced stages of design and prototype making is about to begin, the two developments will be parallel. MoD has again stated that the FOC for MK2 will be 2025. There is no reason to distrust it. MK2 will have similar technology as MK1 but will be bigger in size and some components will be internal. 2028 is a hoax which I never heard of before.

Rafale is a 4th generation plane. Its engine thrust of 50/75kN is a big drawback. I don't see any reason to glorify it. Su30 is more robust than rafale.

Also, give me source that MK1A is being readied by 2023 and not 2021. When was this announcement made?

HAL’s Light Combat Aircraft project to come under IAF control

Please read this news

It clearly says that Mk 2 first squadron will be ready by 2028

It also says this about MK 1 A :

Tejas has once again missed the FOC in June and the development of the Tejas-Mk 1A with specific enhancements has been delayed.
 
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HAL is in fact making a request to add another 60 Mk1As to the 83 ordered.



Our most critical need is 123 LCA and 72 Rafale. Followed by a tender contract before 2023.

Before we get the first Mk2 squadron, we will have reached our comfort level with more than 35 squadrons.

But we most definitely need 5 squadrons of FGFA.


Whether anybody likes it or not Mk 1 A will be delayed badly and is already looking very expensive

The kind of changes that have been demanded by IAF are very demanding
And the problem is the same

No space in that Tiny air frame to accomdate everything

IAF agreed to MK 1A only because of the pressure applied by Parrikar

And for Drdo Mk 1 A was a face saving gesture

Therefore IAF had stated way back in 2016 that MK2 is the real plane that they want and which will come with all the desired features and specs
 
Rafale F4 and Gripen E .. 5th Gen? hmmmm

I have already lost faith in HAL, ADA and DRDO on LCA as by the time it will get ready the world will definitely shift to 5th generation fighters like Rafale F4, Gripen E, f-35. LCA Mk1A will be monkey plane and IAF will keep crying and shifting goal posts and HAL ADA and DRDO again doing catch up game and testing till eternity....😠😠😠😠😠
 
IAF clearly has a different size goal post for foreign (non Russian) planes, and different goal post for Russian and different still for Indian,
Right now there is very less difference between Indian and Russian planes "goal posts"

IAF is going to make it impossible for Indian made planes to be acceptable

Just to give one instance, when Mirage 2000 upgrade was suggested (almost 40 million a pop) there was no new engine, nor request for AESA radar, but on other hand, they have been insisting on LCA to have a working AESA radar,. does it not show that they have different stardards?
Surely the French can descale RBE-2AA and can give Radar for Mirage 2000 but IAF did not insist on AESA for Mirage, but they do recognize the importance of AESA. so why these double standards?
IAF does not want to accept LCA without AESA and which could be fitted at later stages, IAF keeps changing its requirements also caused by delay in HAL.

One of the reason that LCA is not really taking off is IAF top brass

Whether anybody likes it or not Mk 1 A will be delayed badly and is already looking very expensive

The kind of changes that have been demanded by IAF are very demanding
And the problem is the same

No space in that Tiny air frame to accomdate everything

IAF agreed to MK 1A only because of the pressure applied by Parrikar

And for Drdo Mk 1 A was a face saving gesture

Therefore IAF had stated way back in 2016 that MK2 is the real plane that they want and which will come with all the desired features and specs
 
By the time HAL gets LCA 2 ready, IAF will be changing standards again (much higher standards) but would be ready to accept lower standard Gripen or Rafale then

Whether anybody likes it or not Mk 1 A will be delayed badly and is already looking very expensive

The kind of changes that have been demanded by IAF are very demanding
And the problem is the same

No space in that Tiny air frame to accomdate everything

IAF agreed to MK 1A only because of the pressure applied by Parrikar

And for Drdo Mk 1 A was a face saving gesture

Therefore IAF had stated way back in 2016 that MK2 is the real plane that they want and which will come with all the desired features and specs
 
By the time HAL gets LCA 2 ready, IAF will be changing standards again (much higher standards) but would be ready to accept lower standard Gripen or Rafale then

The GE 414 engine was selected for MK 2
In 2010 itself

So they should have started a full fledged MK 2 programme immediately in 2010

By now we could have had a few MK 2 prototypes ready


Instead they have been wasting time with IOC 1 ,IOC 2 ,FOC, MK 1 A

Today the programme is all about hopes and dreams
 
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Whether anybody likes it or not Mk 1 A will be delayed badly and is already looking very expensive

The kind of changes that have been demanded by IAF are very demanding
And the problem is the same

No space in that Tiny air frame to accomdate everything

IAF agreed to MK 1A only because of the pressure applied by Parrikar

And for Drdo Mk 1 A was a face saving gesture

Therefore IAF had stated way back in 2016 that MK2 is the real plane that they want and which will come with all the desired features and specs

It was HAL actually. When HAL offered the Mk1A, the IAF grabbed it with both hands. But the problem is our scientists are not futurists, they are never prepared for what's coming next.

For example, IAF got their hands on the R-73 back in the mid 80s. But LCA was designed without the ability to carry the R-73. Anyone with common sense would have told you that the IAF will ask for R-73 and HMDS on the LCA, which they did in 1997. But ADA never prepared for it, and then took a decade to do the necessary work. The LCA should have been designed or a least FBNWed all the way back in 1987.

Any idiot could tell you the IAF will want IFR on the LCA, but even then the IFR design came in so late.

HAL is much more proactive in that sense. That's why we have something like the Mk1A today. Or else we wouldn't have anything to show for. And even Mk2 would have died had it not been for Mk1A.

However even HAL was affected by this inability to see the future. A software defined radio, IMA architecture and new gen transponder and IFF are basic technologies when you are entering the 2020s. HAL should have started work on this back in 2015. What you call "are very demanding" is in fact basic stuff that's expected on a modern aircraft.

Parrikar had nothing to do with all this. Mk1A was in the works long before Modi's election victory. It was IAF that desperately sought out something that could replace the Mig-21s in the short term.

We need the private sector taking over eventually. HAL was fine when we were a poor nation, now it simple doesn't cut it. We will need R&D also to be transferred to the private sector. We need futurists among the scientific manpower that can tell the IAF what they need 15 or 20 years later instead of vice versa. And, in India, that kind of talent can only be nurtured in the private sector. Kinda like what Vstol is doing with MSA. DRDO and PSUs are completely hobbled by bureaucracy.