LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions

[Bharath]

the IAF needs to retire all the Mig 21s..

is the present Tejas atleast equal to or slightly better than those Migs? if yes, why should the IAF not replace those MiGs with the LCA for while th LCA matures to replace the Jags and the Mirages?

if the LCA is not even ready to replace the MiG 21s then we have a serious problem with the LCA.

we are depressingly slow in improvement of the LCA platform. we need to speed this up very badly and that can only happen with a heavy influx of funds AS WELL AS moving away from the BABU culture. I would really like to see DRDO/HAL privatized to filter out the garbage that has collected in the DPSUs.

 

[Bharath]

Any delays after FOC would be HAL's fault.

whose fault is it with regards to the delay in the FOC itself?
why promising a date every 6 months only to never reach it?
who would ever believe a date promised by HAL if you break that multiple times?
what are the consequences for HAL if it does not meet the deadlines or if the quality of the product is not up to the mark?
I have not seen one head roll because of this blatant dis regard to timelines.
I have not seen any structural changes to either HAL or any DPSUs despite decades of lethargic attitude towards their stated goal of making India self sufficient in defence equipment.
If there are no consequences to actions, then why do we expect that things will magically change?

 

[advaidhya]

the IAF needs to retire all the Mig 21s..

is the present Tejas atleast equal to or slightly better than those Migs? if yes, why should the IAF not replace those MiGs with the LCA for while th LCA matures to replace the Jags and the Mirages?

if the LCA is not even ready to replace the MiG 21s then we have a serious problem with the LCA.

we are depressingly slow in improvement of the LCA platform. we need to speed this up very badly and that can only happen with a heavy influx of funds AS WELL AS moving away from the BABU culture. I would really like to see DRDO/HAL privatized to filter out the garbage that has collected in the DPSUs.

As of now, Tejas is as good as Mirage 2000. The avionics of tejas are pretty advanced and have weapons integration much better than Mirage 2000.

whose fault is it with regards to the delay in the FOC itself?
why promising a date every 6 months only to never reach it?
who would ever believe a date promised by HAL if you break that multiple times?
what are the consequences for HAL if it does not meet the deadlines or if the quality of the product is not up to the mark?
I have not seen one head roll because of this blatant dis regard to timelines.
I have not seen any structural changes to either HAL or any DPSUs despite decades of lethargic attitude towards their stated goal of making India self sufficient in defence equipment.
If there are no consequences to actions, then why do we expect that things will magically change?

HAL said that FOC is december 2018. This you have been discussing for over 2 pages with another guy on this very thread. There was even a source of interview that states deadline as 2018 end. Why do people only rant without any logic on this thread? It was Stephen Cohen in the last 2-3 pages. Now it is you!

 

[Bharath]

HAL said that FOC is december 2018. This you have been discussing for over 2 pages with another guy on this very thread. There was even a source of interview that states deadline as 2018 end. Why do people only rant without any logic on this thread? It was Stephen Cohen in the last 2-3 pages. Now it is you!

man seriously.

How many times has HAL given the deadline for FOC?
Hoa many times have these deadlines been missed.

if dec 2018 was the given deadline?
here is the list of "Deadlines" given:

first it was 2012, then it became 2013

2013:
Tejas won’t become fully operational before 2013 - Times of India

"This was to be followed by an “intermediate clearance stage' by December 2011. And finally, the fighter was to get the fighter was to get the final operational clearance (FOC) by December 2012"

then in 2014:
in July 2014, the FOC was pushed back as six or more aircraft were needed for testing and only one had been produced then

Tejas received IOC-II clearance on 17 January 2015 and the FOC was expected by year's end for induction in the Indian Air Force,

"The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is expected by the year-end."
source: Indian Air Force finally gets Tejas, the 'Made in India' Light Combat Aircraft, after a wait of 32 years

2015:
Rs 25k cr Tejas won’t be ready before 2015 - Times of India


then it became 2016:

Surprise: India's New Fighter Jet Faces More Delays

including this grandiose statement:
"The IAF agreed to accept the flawed Tejas to keep the programme alive; the DRDO and HAL promised an improved Tejas Mk 1A version; changes to the ballast and landing gear will reduce its weight by 1,000 kg and the delivery will begin by 2016."


so I hope now you can take this statement:

Why do people only rant without any logic on this thread?

and mellow down a bit. there is a perfectly good reason why people are ranting and there is more than enough logic to it.

 

[randomradio]

whose fault is it with regards to the delay in the FOC itself?
why promising a date every 6 months only to never reach it?
who would ever believe a date promised by HAL if you break that multiple times?
what are the consequences for HAL if it does not meet the deadlines or if the quality of the product is not up to the mark?
I have not seen one head roll because of this blatant dis regard to timelines.
I have not seen any structural changes to either HAL or any DPSUs despite decades of lethargic attitude towards their stated goal of making India self sufficient in defence equipment.
If there are no consequences to actions, then why do we expect that things will magically change?

You should be targeting ADA.

It's ADA's responsibility to design, test and then have the aircraft certified. HAL's job is production.

 

[randomradio]

As of now, Tejas is as good as Mirage 2000.

Nope.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

man seriously.

How many times has HAL given the deadline for FOC?
Hoa many times have these deadlines been missed.

if dec 2018 was the given deadline?
here is the list of "Deadlines" given:

first it was 2012, then it became 2013

2013:
Tejas won’t become fully operational before 2013 - Times of India

"This was to be followed by an “intermediate clearance stage' by December 2011. And finally, the fighter was to get the fighter was to get the final operational clearance (FOC) by December 2012"

then in 2014:
in July 2014, the FOC was pushed back as six or more aircraft were needed for testing and only one had been produced then

Tejas received IOC-II clearance on 17 January 2015 and the FOC was expected by year's end for induction in the Indian Air Force,

"The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is expected by the year-end."
source: Indian Air Force finally gets Tejas, the 'Made in India' Light Combat Aircraft, after a wait of 32 years

2015:
Rs 25k cr Tejas won’t be ready before 2015 - Times of India


then it became 2016:

Surprise: India's New Fighter Jet Faces More Delays

including this grandiose statement:
"The IAF agreed to accept the flawed Tejas to keep the programme alive; the DRDO and HAL promised an improved Tejas Mk 1A version; changes to the ballast and landing gear will reduce its weight by 1,000 kg and the delivery will begin by 2016."


so I hope now you can take this statement:


and mellow down a bit. there is a perfectly good reason why people are ranting and there is more than enough logic to it.

Neither have they been able to deliver the promised speed of 8 aircraft a year.
Plus the manufacturing of 8 LCA MK1 Trainers are postponed beyond 2021.

Jai ho HAL ki

 

[smestarz]

You have to give some credit to HAL as even IAF after each missed deadline asked for something more from Tejas,
Also from say 2012 to 2018 what are the differences in weapons, avionics etc that IAF has asked HAL to add.

man seriously.

How many times has HAL given the deadline for FOC?
Hoa many times have these deadlines been missed.

if dec 2018 was the given deadline?
here is the list of "Deadlines" given:

first it was 2012, then it became 2013

2013:
Tejas won’t become fully operational before 2013 - Times of India

"This was to be followed by an “intermediate clearance stage' by December 2011. And finally, the fighter was to get the fighter was to get the final operational clearance (FOC) by December 2012"

then in 2014:
in July 2014, the FOC was pushed back as six or more aircraft were needed for testing and only one had been produced then

Tejas received IOC-II clearance on 17 January 2015 and the FOC was expected by year's end for induction in the Indian Air Force,

"The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is expected by the year-end."
source: Indian Air Force finally gets Tejas, the 'Made in India' Light Combat Aircraft, after a wait of 32 years

2015:
Rs 25k cr Tejas won’t be ready before 2015 - Times of India


then it became 2016:

Surprise: India's New Fighter Jet Faces More Delays

including this grandiose statement:
"The IAF agreed to accept the flawed Tejas to keep the programme alive; the DRDO and HAL promised an improved Tejas Mk 1A version; changes to the ballast and landing gear will reduce its weight by 1,000 kg and the delivery will begin by 2016."


so I hope now you can take this statement:


and mellow down a bit. there is a perfectly good reason why people are ranting and there is more than enough logic to it.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

As of now, Tejas is as good as Mirage 2000. The avionics of tejas are pretty advanced and have weapons integration much better than Mirage 2000.

Ka likhe ho, jara khud padh lo.

 

[randomradio]

Neither have they been able to deliver the promised speed of 8 aircraft a year.
Plus the manufacturing of 8 LCA MK1 Trainers are postponed beyond 2021.

Jai ho HAL ki

They are delivering more than they promised.

The initial delivery was supposed to be 2, 4, 6 and 8.
They have instead managed 3, 3, and 4 (and counting). They will exceed it.

 

[Bharath]

As of now, Tejas is as good as Mirage 2000. The avionics of tejas are pretty advanced and have weapons integration much better than Mirage 2000.

on which parameters?

please be specific

 

[Ankit Kumar]

They are delivering more than they promised.

The initial delivery was supposed to be 2, 4, 6 and 8.
They have instead managed 3, 3, and 4 (and counting). They will exceed it.

Wrong

2014-2015 FY - SP1 (01)
2015-2016 FY - SP2 (01)
2016-2017 FY - SP3, SP4 (02)
2017-2018 FY - SP6, SP7, SP5 ,SP8, SP9(05)
2018-2019 FY - SP10...

Now the thing is HAL promised to deliver 2, 4 , 6, 8 from 2009,2010,2011,2012, isn't it?

 

[Bharath]

They are delivering more than they promised.

The initial delivery was supposed to be 2, 4, 6 and 8.
They have instead managed 3, 3, and 4 (and counting). They will exceed it.

Do you know the story of the Indian train? here let me take a shot:

the train was always late and people were always frustrated. Every day the train was late by atleast 2-4 hours. once in a while it was late by 6-8 hours. It never on time. in fact the train was called "the late express". then one day, the train came on time. the driver was ecstatic. he was expecting a hero's welcome. But the people were even more frustrated. do you know why?

the train was so late, that it came on time the next day.

when the driver was asked by a reporter, why the driver was surprised at the peoples reaction, the driver said "they all wanted me to come on time.. so I struggled hard and made sure I come on time - now they have changed the requirements and say they want me to come on time and on the same day - it is their fault to change the requirement".

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

As of now, Tejas is as good as Mirage 2000. The avionics of tejas are pretty advanced and have weapons integration much better than Mirage 2000.


HAL said that FOC is december 2018. This you have been discussing for over 2 pages with another guy on this very thread. There was even a source of interview that states deadline as 2018 end. Why do people only rant without any logic on this thread? It was Stephen Cohen in the last 2-3 pages. Now it is you!

You are under a wrong impression that I am against LCA

I am as keen as every body else to see it become successful

But DRDO Must be truthful about the timelines

If the MK 1 is giving them such a tough time
How can Mk1 A with so many changes and advancements Will be ready by 2020

Let us remember that this is not a Science Project that is going on

Also saying that it is better than JF 17 is not helpful because our operational requirements are different from The Pakistanis

The Mk 1 A was announced in 2015 October

Three years later we have no idea where it stands

 

[_Anonymous_]

They are delivering more than they promised.

The initial delivery was supposed to be 2, 4, 6 and 8.
They have instead managed 3, 3, and 4 (and counting). They will exceed it.

I really admire you , Man.Your optimism knows no bounds . If I were Chairman of HAL / DRDO / ADA and with you as my spokesperson , the critics would be worn down by your randomfacts , random semantics , randomlogic and randomwhataboutery.

 

[advaidhya]

You are under a wrong impression that I am against LCA

I am as keen as every body else to see it become successful

But DRDO Must be truthful about the timelines

If the MK 1 is giving them such a tough time
How can Mk1 A with so many changes and advancements Will be ready by 2020

Let us remember that this is not a Science Project that is going on

Also saying that it is better than JF 17 is not helpful because our operational requirements are different from The Pakistanis

The Mk 1 A was announced in 2015 October

Three years later we have no idea where it stands

Actually, Tejas Mk1A was specified on 2015 due to Parrikar's intervention. It would be obvious that it would take over 5 years for its development. Parrikar himself had told that Tejas was going nowhere due to previious govt and he had to restart it. So, if we take the problems with it, we could say that Tejas was in a bad shape. I would not be surprised that the Tejas MK1A would take some time. Going by specifications, thing like AESA< Software Radios etc are all new items under development. Software radio was just completed recently. AESA will also be completed in 2 years. The weapons like Astra had to be integrated. Integration of many other systems also took time. The IOC of Tejas in 2013 was a sham. That is why we had IOC-1. It was unfit to be eve IOC and hence they had to invent a new term.

None of this was HAL's fault. If the govt does not fund properly, no one can do anything. Plane development takes time. There is nothing that one can do to quicken it. Consider time of 5-6 years of UPA as wasted. Now, make the math.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Actually, Tejas Mk1A was specified on 2015 due to Parrikar's intervention. It would be obvious that it would take over 5 years for its development. Parrikar himself had told that Tejas was going nowhere due to previious govt and he had to restart it. So, if we take the problems with it, we could say that Tejas was in a bad shape. I would not be surprised that the Tejas MK1A would take some time. Going by specifications, thing like AESA< Software Radios etc are all new items under development. Software radio was just completed recently. AESA will also be completed in 2 years. The weapons like Astra had to be integrated. Integration of many other systems also took time. The IOC of Tejas in 2013 was a sham. That is why we had IOC-1. It was unfit to be eve IOC and hence they had to invent a new term.

None of this was HAL's fault. If the govt does not fund properly, no one can do anything. Plane development takes time. There is nothing that one can do to quicken it. Consider time of 5-6 years of UPA as wasted. Now, make the math.

Ok , I accept your point

That brings us to the more important point
Which is

Was it necessary to do this MK 1 A experiment when the Airframe and Engine limitations are well known

Mk1 A was pushed solely by DRDO

IAF told them to start work on MK 2

Now both are stuck up

The human and financial resources are divided in two projects and ultimately both will be delayed

 

[pachawry]

Wrong

2014-2015 FY - SP1 (01)
2015-2016 FY - SP2 (01)
2016-2017 FY - SP3, SP4 (02)
2017-2018 FY - SP6, SP7, SP5 ,SP8, SP9(05)
2018-2019 FY - SP10...

Now the thing is HAL promised to deliver 2, 4 , 6, 8 from 2009,2010,2011,2012, isn't it?

That is because UPA sabotaged all projects. The order for 20 Tejas was given on 2006. But the manufacturing started when Parrikar forced them to make it in 2015. So, Tejas just barely started to be manufactured in 2015. That does not come under HAL's incompetence. HAL does not directly collect tax to fund all these.

Neither have they been able to deliver the promised speed of 8 aircraft a year.
Plus the manufacturing of 8 LCA MK1 Trainers are postponed beyond 2021.

Jai ho HAL ki

HAL can make more than 8 planes if you give orders With just order of 20, they have to go slow. HAL has to build 20 planes of crrent standard while next 20 have to be FOC. And after that MK1A. HAL can't just make any number of planes without proper order in meaningful quantity. If HAL makes 8 planes a year, then the IOC Mk1 will be over in 2 years. What will they do after that? The development time for extra capability in FOC and further extra in MK1A needs more time. HAL is not incompetent in manufacturing. It is just that the technology is not yet available for the ordered variants. The order for the available variants is too low.

man seriously.

How many times has HAL given the deadline for FOC?
Hoa many times have these deadlines been missed.

if dec 2018 was the given deadline?
here is the list of "Deadlines" given:

first it was 2012, then it became 2013

2013:
Tejas won’t become fully operational before 2013 - Times of India

"This was to be followed by an “intermediate clearance stage' by December 2011. And finally, the fighter was to get the fighter was to get the final operational clearance (FOC) by December 2012"

then in 2014:
in July 2014, the FOC was pushed back as six or more aircraft were needed for testing and only one had been produced then

Tejas received IOC-II clearance on 17 January 2015 and the FOC was expected by year's end for induction in the Indian Air Force,

"The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is expected by the year-end."
source: Indian Air Force finally gets Tejas, the 'Made in India' Light Combat Aircraft, after a wait of 32 years

2015:
Rs 25k cr Tejas won’t be ready before 2015 - Times of India


then it became 2016:

Surprise: India's New Fighter Jet Faces More Delays

including this grandiose statement:
"The IAF agreed to accept the flawed Tejas to keep the programme alive; the DRDO and HAL promised an improved Tejas Mk 1A version; changes to the ballast and landing gear will reduce its weight by 1,000 kg and the delivery will begin by 2016."


so I hope now you can take this statement:


and mellow down a bit. there is a perfectly good reason why people are ranting and there is more than enough logic to it.

Sabotage of UPA does not hold against HAL. UPA did not fund it. The order of 2006 was not even started in 2014. UPA refused to sanction funds for it. Now fund are available but order is low and expectation has increased. So, additional deelopment time is needed.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

What is MK 1 A

It is hoping that you can do an internal Rejig
And push everything inside whether it is an SPJ or an AESA or A drop tank

And that too With the same sized airframe and same engine and voila everything will be fine

The problem is the Damned Airframe and the low TWR

AESA also requires cooling channels
Where will they accomdate everything

 

[advaidhya]

Ok , I accept your point

That brings us to the more important point
Which is

Was it necessary to do this MK 1 A experiment when the Airframe and Engine limitations are well known

Mk1 A was pushed solely by DRDO

IAF told them to start work on MK 2

Now both are stuck up

The human and financial resources are divided in two projects and ultimately both will be delayed

Mk1A has most of Mk2 technology which are not constrained by space. Hence, Mk1A was a adjustment till Mk2 was available. The changing airframe of Mk2 made its process a bit lengthy. But both will not be stck. They are parallel development. Mk1A is developed by HAL and DRDO. Things like SDR is made by DRDO for general purpose and handed to Tejas, AESA is made by DRDO. MK2 is developed by ADA and involves redesign. But the avionics and subsystem will remain same as MK1A in addition to a little extra. So, the time spent on MK1A development is as good as time saved on MK2 development.

Mk2 will actually benefit from Mk1A as the assembly lines would already be ready and the subsystem developed would be interchangeable.