So you agree we have lost with regard to time .
To catch up the Gripen curve , how long do you think we will take ?
Just the development & induction.. Let's forget about technical superiority for the moment.
LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A - News and discussions
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So you agree we have lost with regard to time .
To catch up the Gripen curve , how long do you think we will take ?
Just the development & induction.. Let's forget about technical superiority for the moment.
That one went past me at high speed.
Did you mean that you want to know how long it will take to catch up with the Gripen? In what respects, or is it a general question?
We need critics to stay grounded . Can't say I've always agreed with his view , but he was tenacious in putting it across if a tad headstrong .Will have to nudge him.
Tejas Mk2 is ahead of gripen E as of now. Tejas is seeing parallel development of various subsystems including UTTAM AESA, Kaveri engine, Astra BVR, DARE EW and other indigenous items with most of them nearing completion in 2-3 years
SAAB has airframe, FBW, avionics, EW as of now. Its AESA is under development while components like engine, BVR etc are completely non existent. They don't even have a programme to make them.
As of now, Tejas Mk2 is well ahead of Gripen E in design and development phase. Both Gripen E and Tejas MK2 are not yet completed and have a FOC date of 2023-25. But, Tejas MK2 is set to be indigenous while Gripen will continue to have imported critical components like engine.
Tejas MK2 >>Gripen E by every standards in quality and in maturity
In induction dates, both are same - 2025. But Tejas Mk2 will be 100% indigenous while Gripen will have significant imports, especially engine.
SAAB has airframe, FBW, avionics, EW as of now. Its AESA is under development while components like engine, BVR etc are completely non existent. They don't even have a programme to make them.
As of now, Tejas Mk2 is well ahead of Gripen E in design and development phase. Both Gripen E and Tejas MK2 are not yet completed and have a FOC date of 2023-25. But, Tejas MK2 is set to be indigenous while Gripen will continue to have imported critical components like engine.
Tejas MK2 >>Gripen E by every standards in quality and in maturity
In induction dates, both are same - 2025. But Tejas Mk2 will be 100% indigenous while Gripen will have significant imports, especially engine.
As of now, the Tejas Mk2 does not exist. The Gripen E has flown.
I also have a plane on my computer where I have written specs and equipment which I know will be better than the F-22. Have added lasers to it. Now, I need to find a miniaturised nuclear engine to power it.
@vstol Jockey has progressed further and actually done computations, agreements, presentations and designed it. But, even he will agree till the first prototype is made, everything is in the air.
Before blaming members who have strong points of view, look at your own stupid comments. Like the one you just made, saying 'as of now the Tejas MK2 is better', when the plane does not exist beyond paper.
As of now, Tejas Mk2 doesn't exist beyond paper but all the infrastructure does. The assembly part is the easier one. Unless you have zero common sense, you should consider the infrastructure as more important than mere assembly.
The strong point of view that Tejas doesn't have indian engine or radar is the most foolish point of view when comparing with Gripen which not only doesn't have them but also don't have any future plans for them.
Gripen E has merely flow first flight and nothing more. What is the big deal about it anyways? Wise people see the background and future prospects rather than just short sighted results in the short term
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I was also optimistic in the beginning.
Ok tell me what milestone Tejas will achieve next and when .
Let's see if that's achieved in time.
2019- Kaveri engine will be ready. Tejas Mk2 first flight by 2020. UTTAM radar completion by 2021. Then AMCA first flight is in the pipeline.
These are rough estimation of mine considering data from various sources.
The atmosphere has all the necessary gasses. And I can see you are an expert in most of them.
First mk2 development needs to be ordered. Till now the govt has not sanctioned a paisa for it. Safron and GTRE and still "negotiating" for the development of upgraded Kaveri Engine. Our EW pod is yet to see test flight. Only positive is Uttam AESA is undergoing integration with PV1 for flight testing. If we have an engine by 2020, we could have an first prototype by 2025. But I believe engine development if any will take till 2022-23. I dont know if induction of an 4th gen single engine fighter will make sense if we start induction from 2030. We could infact concentrate on a single engine 5th gen fighter and AMCA in parallel.
Do you know that first flight of MK2 will be done on F414 to ensure that number of parameters will be reduced for checking? 5th generation planes can't be small single engine ones. They have to be large ones as internal bay for carrying weapons is needed. So, big single engine like f35 or twin engine is a must. The LSA is a joke.
Safran is not including M88 for Kaveri. They are just giving consultancy and test bed. There is nothing more they will do. No one gives ToT for engines and neither is France.
I think in this month itself Govt sanctioned Mk2 and AMCA. So, it is official that MK2 and AMCA will be made. Mk2 is easier and faster to make as the FBW of Tejas Mk1 can be slightly tweaked or MK2 while relatively far more tweaking is needed for AMCA. How do you know about EW pods not being tested? EW pods are quicker and simpler to make than a radar and there is no need to have doubts about it.
Just see my timeline and observe how it will be fulfilled
can you make a time line guess about FOC of MK1 and First flight of MK1A ?
i think these 2 are short term goals.
ADA has already received the full-scale air intake duct for the AMCA's 3B-09 design version from NAL.
MK1A will have 80% of the features of Mk2 while MK2 will have some addition related to increase in size compared to MK1A. So, technology wise, they both will be similar. MK2 will have a slightly larger fuselage both in length and width (with same overall wingspan) and hence will need some FBW tweaking which will take additional time.
MK1A has many problems like radar, engine will be imported etc. So, I can't speak of FOC for it. It will not be fully indigenous to speak of FOC in a proper manner.
do not get personal. personal attacks on any forum members are not welcome.
please be civil and polite when referring to each other - you guys are both old enough and can do much better than this.
Where in my posts I asked for a small single engine 5th gen ac? I asked for a single engine 5th gen ac would make sense if someone wants to start inducting an ac from 2030's. According to Rafale's offset commitments Safran has to work with GTRE to help improve its Kabini core. Not ToT. Kaveri engine is a working platform with thrust requirements not meeting the standards of IAF. We simply needs to improve its core to increase thrust while keeping the size same.
EW pods or for sake any electronics part is no joke. I work in Electronics field and I know the time taken for an simple board bring up and later integration stage. And if its used for defence then one needs to design factors where all the components on a part can handles upto 11g's or more. Its not like integrating stuffs, writing codes and tada its ready. Uttam AESA for ur information has been undergoing testing since 2016 and it has taken them 3 years to proceed to aircraft testing (being integrated on PV1 as we speak). I too want mk2 to proceed on F414, but the Rafale offset deal has thrown different informations altogether. And I suspect its the reason for its mk2 not getting sanctioned. They are waiting on engine update.
I am trying to say that a single engine 5th generation fighter will need a big engine like the F35. It is simply better to go with twin engines than with such a big engine. The plane will be more sleek and wider with 2 engines, thus giving is less RCS and higher wing area. Single engine 5th generation plane is a big no. F35 is a good example of failure to not repeat. F35 is aerodynamically very bad. Ideally, a plane of F35 size needed 250kN of thrust but due to single engine limitation, it got just 180kN. In addition, the wing area is small and the belly too big which makes it very poor in maneuverability. F22 on the other hand is an ideal example of excellent 5th generation plane. Even Su57, J20 are all twin engine planes for the same reason.
UTTAM AESA has been undergoing tests since 2016 and not yet complete because the project itself started in 2014. You can't expect a projet to complete by 4 years, especially for an AESA radar. The fact that these people completed the air-air code in 2 years and started shows a lot about quality of Indian scientists and coders. Even in EW pods, DRDO has access to materials from Israel and Russia where the right equipment can be inserted. The only thing not accessible is the coding. In this part, I have full faith in Indian coders. So, I consider EW as easily completable.
Tejas MK2 has been sanctioned in 2013 where Tejas Mk1 was rejected as deficient and a new project sanctioned (just like Arjun tank saga). It has completed its preliminary design review and even dimensions have been declared in a news article a few months back. The naval version was also sanctioned and Mr Lanba himself acknowledged that.