Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

Lolwa said:
This middle Kingdom phenomenon is a recent creation.
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It has existed ever since, why the hell they will otherwise claim Tibet.

Lolwa said:
Mao had not thought about it at that time. At that time it was simply teach Imperialist India a lesson and show the Chinese awaam that they are the good guys and the coward Indians are thieves.
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India - China war followed China's annexation of Tibet, which Mao and gang thought to be China's historical right (see the pattern right from 1950s?). Nehru being the cuckold he was, actually assisted by looking the other way. Hindi Cheeni Bye Bye bullshit galore. I will avoid retelling the entire story as you may very well know it.
It was only when India started to appear as a possible threat to Tibet -- again Nehru's weird schizophrenic policy giving Dariyai Lamma refuge -- and Aksai Chin being the path to Tibet from Xianjiong that this war started brewing.

In short, it was always "China's historical rights" mindset of China coupled with fear of losing Tibet.

Had Nehru not been the cuck he was, Tibet could very well have been a protectorate of India and we would be having some Tibetian in this forum and may be in our college campuses as well.
 
Lolwa said:
A low key alliance similar to how the Chinese had during the Cold war. Why be so cautious? It's us who should take a pound of flesh from them similar to how the Chinese did. The Americans are desperate to ally with us. They need a cannon fodder. We just become a good enough bait so that we can take the technology and industry. When the time of fighting comes based on the situation we should switch our alliances. We need to be pragmatic, Indian industry has just entered it's nascent stage compared to other economies we need high investment in technology we should build our technology base at the same time use western technology till an Indian replacement is ready. We need to rattle the Chinese. The only reason they happily go hippoty hoppity on our borders is because they know we can't do much apart from looking at them and engaging them in small skirmishes. If you really want to rattle the Chinese just choose the obvious side. Wasting our time in Pan-Asianism is the same nehruvian fallacy which screwed us up post independence. There should be only Indian interest and the best interest for us is to have a bellicose posture against the Cheeni peasants. The Japanese and the Koreans are placing strategic U.S systems like THAAD and the Chinks can only whine like Chimpanzees. Giving Quad a military posture and recognising Taiwan should be enough for us to rattle The Chinkies. Two simple steps. They will any way do intrusions all over the Indo-chinese border atleast let's reap economic dividends from it. There will be another round of border talks anyway and things will go back to normal. If Pakistan can be a nuisance to us we can be a nuisance to the Chinese. This doesn't mean to prop terror groups like the Pakistanis but take openly offensive measures to show what our true intentions are and then act dumb like Pakistanis and denying everything. The Chinese love business and if in retaliation they stop investing in something as simple replace it with Indian manufacturing and Western investment. In each case we gain. And knowing the Chinese they will protect their business interests than actually doing anything on ground because they have "time" on their side. Once the Xi pooping starts losing face in front of the Cheeni awam because of dirty Indians he will end up getting replaced pretty soon. We need someone with enough balls to do this....
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Look its not going to happen, we have asked US to completely stop backing pakistan but they have not agreed to it. They still want to have pakistan as counter weight to India. One reason they helped china was they never expected a challenge from them. They more or less thought they are japanese version 2. Thumb rule for americans is that every one is a threat to their interests. After the chinese challenge they wont provide much technology or support to India. They have history of converting non white allies to enemies like Iran, pakistan..etc. Being a non-white country we should be the last to expect any largesse.

We should let US-China slug it out only then might get some concessions, for example take a look at UNSC. US still does not want to back India for UNSC even as nominal gesture. Second thing if chinese get dumbed down then their next focus will obviously be India. Why do we want to unnecessarily invite attention ?
 
Saaho said:
In short, it was always "China's historical rights" mindset of China coupled with fear of losing Tibet.
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Yes bcos it is occupied territory, even though historically chinese claim tibetan territory as part of their country tibetans have never accepted that. Their claim to territory is as good as baburs descendants in uzbekistan or afghanistan laying claim to Indian mainland bcos they occupied it before.

China will be more aggressive wrt to tibet & xinjiang bcos it has got to lose more say compared to SCS. In fact even the taiwanese dont challenge china's occupation of tibet. Post 1962 we should have ensured tibet remains a buffer between India & china as they have been for centuries.
 
Gautam said:
“Indonesia on Friday rejected a Chinese offer for negotiations on the South China Sea, as Jakarta reiterated that it had no overlapping claims with Beijing in its exclusive economic zone."

Translation: we do not accept your historic rights claim.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1269345488266039298
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good thing , when they say negotiation it means other side has accepted it has disputed territory. In fact it is normal chinese text book bullying tactic to create disputes where none existed and drive a bargain. Its like bargaining with a thief who has come to rob your house.
 
What do you guys make out of it - China refused withdrawal or laid conditions? Did the talks fail?

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My take on the current situation is very different from other members.

We are clearly staring at a new world with newer alliances like the cold war-1 times when we had NATO & WARSAW Pact. The new world order is still to evolve but the weapon to fight will be OIL. China has over 30 year contract for oil supply from Russia. China is the biggest importer of oil. Iran-Iraq-Syria-Russia- Central Asia-Venezuala have more oil with them than OPEC and USA. India is the second largest importer of oil after China. If India joins the group of nations opposed to USA & NATO, the balance will tilt in favour of this alliance. Just the size of oil market between these nations will be worth more than the combined GDP of OPEC. USA companies have imvested large amount of money in OPEC countries. In such a situation, if the oil is flooded in the market resulting in crash of price, it will pinch rest of the world more than it will pinch this alliance led by Russia & China. India is needed to ensure this happens because if India is not part of such an alliance against USA, this alliance will fail as every emeber of this alliance has an oil based economy and USA will impose sanctions on them all.
Few days back someone had posted a thread here about how USSR broke up due to the oil price war started by Saudi Arabia and how Putin has decided to now break apart the Arab world. Western Europe is completely dependednt on oil supply from Russia and I do foresee that if this alliance grows and India joins this alliance, we will see some kind of regrouping of old USSR nations into this new alliance. Putin has many times stated this openly as his vision for old soviet block countries.
Baba Banaras had posted a few things about this offer from China. It appears to me that this offer was conveyed by Russia informally to India recently and the bait used was POK+GB+Aksai Chin. China added another condition of CPEC/BRI in this offer. Who gains and who looses if India does take up this offer?

Russia will come to dominate the world again and more strongly than USSR ever did. China will become undisputed manufacturing hub of the world and will dominate the world affairs with impunity as it will have no rivals in its backyard of Asia and it will more than recover its investments in BRI with domination of Indian market. India will be able to get back all its territories without firing a bullet and will have very peaceful frontiers since 1947. But who emerges the biggest loser in this alliance led by Russia?

India will be the biggest looser. We will become a vassal state of Russia and China. We will get sanctioned by USA & Europe which are our biggest markets. We will lose the markets even in Asia which we are slowly cultivating. We will be just another country with independent policy of its own. We will loose Indo-Pacific to China including IOR & Africa.

The best course of action for us remains the NAM. Equi-distant and Equi-Friendly with both and all groups. Let us not become a sounding board for others or join the fight between others. We need to protect our Independence and our freedom as a nation which does not depend on anyone. Compared to anyother country of the world, India is the only country which will have no effect on its economy in case of sanctions by any allince. We demonstrated that in 1999 when USA had sanctioned us after Shakti-2 explosions. Our economy remained resolute with no effect at all.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
ran-Iraq-Syria-Russia- Central Asia-Venezuala have more oil with them than OPEC and USA. India is the second largest importer of oil after China. If India joins the group of nations opposed to USA & NATO, the balance will tilt in favour of this alliance.
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India many times tried to get oil from Iran-Syria and etc. But because Indian leaders come with baggage. So many times in the past every one has seen that how India had to turn down offers from Iran.
vstol Jockey said:
The best course of action for us remains the NAM.
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Correct, rather India should utilize the opportunity in this rivalry. This is not the first time it's happening.
 
Lolwa said:
I clearly said a closer alliance postion with U.S against China
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China is vast collaboration with Russia, when you partner US you are getting away from Russia. You need to partner both US and Russia. India doesn't have any such problem other than China. It is China which needs to be told clearly and India has to do it alone. The solution doesn't lie in armed conflict it lies in mind conflict.
Lolwa said:
On the military front we can be allied like France a decent amount of interoperability but no U.S troops on Indian bases. Is this proposition in any way bad? When U.S acts funny let's be in our seperate ways. The Americans by that time will decay...
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It's not so easy to form allies. US has it's own interest in region and China + Russia is countering that. Where as India has nothing with Russia but China has caused the dis-balance. Otherwise India would have been in the Russia+China+India block. When you form alliance other than economic then it gives wrong signals.

Remember US is over 12000 kms away, where as China Russia are in the vicinity.
Lolwa said:
Saudi on the other hand is nonsensically rich because of the Oil business. Saudi has still more geopolitical influence than India let's be serious. The oil money buys some real influence even though they are idiots. These two countries are an exception than the norm.And Saudi still has a very strong oil industry so it's not even an exception.
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You have maximum 60-70 years of oil in Saudi and after that you have to mend your ways. It's always better to find a parallel solution to oil to be self reliable.
Lolwa said:
These include China,Japan,South Korea,Taiwan,Singapore majority of the western world under the Marshall Plan. All of them used U.S technology to get in the position they are, all of them are first world developed countries except China and that too is being reconsidered nowadays
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Except China every one are satellite states to US. China where as did not get any technology, they stole it with the help of Russians. India has to handle China alone. What for you are called as nuclear state if India can't give a clear message to China?
Lolwa said:
Even Vietnam had to ally with the Americans to bring in more industry and manufacturing.
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Vietnam is not a nuclear power.
 
Pankaj said:
At the moment it appears we are going to the negotiation table from a position of weakness - what stops us from occupying territory at some other place along the LAC and then sit for talks from a position of strength?
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IMHO and please correct if I am wrong (@Falcon @vstol Jockey at el), the discussion is more on deployment, presence of equipment and blockage of patrol parties than about holding land. What Indian side is asking for them is to go back to deployment status as it was on Apr 2020. What they are asking (AFAIK) is India to stop constructing roads. I think (and hope too) that we will continue with road construction and will let them block our patrol. If they come too near to our posts then we will push them back (without killing).
 
Saaho said:
IMHO and please correct if I am wrong (@Falcon @vstol Jockey at el), the discussion is more on deployment, presence of equipment and blockage of patrol parties than about holding land. What Indian side is asking for them is to go back to deployment status as it was on Apr 2020. What they are asking (AFAIK) is India to stop constructing roads. I think (and hope too) that we will continue with road construction and will let them block our patrol. If they come too near to our posts then we will push them back (without killing).
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You must keep in mind 2017 Doklam and other such incidents from past. IA has the resolve and strength to evict PLA from all of Aksai Chin. If our Jawans are standing upto them and also ready to go into offensive, it means they know what they want and how to get it. I see only two possibilities in this, either chinese will withdraw or we will throw them out. Chinese might withdraw after 3 months when snow starts again in that area as they would have achieved their objective of delaying development of infra on our side for this year. PLA is moving about 300 VT-4 tanks to the front. So they are also looking for a fight or a long drawn stand off.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
You must keep in mind 2017 Doklam and other such incidents from past. IA has the resolve and strength to evict PLA from all of Aksai Chin. If our Jawans are standing upto them and also ready to go into offensive, it means they know what they want and how to get it. I see only two possibilities in this, either chinese will withdraw or we will throw them out. Chinese might withdraw after 3 months when snow starts again in that area as they would have achieved their objective of delaying development of infra on our side for this year. PLA is moving about 300 VT-4 tanks to the front. So they are also looking for a fight or a long drawn stand off.
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But haven't we restarted the work there? Apparently, The Chinese are no where near to where the work on these roads are proceeding besides there were articles confirming that we had / were about to restart our work.
 
_Anonymous_ said:
But haven't we restarted the work there? Apparently, The Chinese are no where near to where the work on these roads are proceeding besides there were articles confirming that we had / were about to restart our work.
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We have restarted the work and this will test the resolve of Chinese. The game is much bigger as I have stated in my earlier post. It is not about developing infra but the much bigger- The Great Game which was feared by the British. look at the world picture, British wanted to give part of Aksai Chin to China and they gave part of Balochistan to Iran to ensure that Russian influence is contained and they are not able to come to this area. But today we have Iran and China sailing in the same boat as Russia and they want India to get into their boat.
 
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Saaho said:
It has existed ever since, why the hell they will otherwise claim Tibet.
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Because land grabbing is a part of communist goal. One needs to be a bit more than a akshay kumar sitting in canada and giving gyaan about patriotism to indians to understand this.
 
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