Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
- Thread starter Nick
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The last group to be negotiation without the engine was at least 3-4 years ago. All subsequent deals were including the engine so I don’t see the reason why it wouldn’t continue.
Block 4 isn’t expensive at all. It’s primarily new code rather than hardware. Only looks like a lot because the number of planes involved.
Our super hornet upgrades are expensive. Block 4 is not.
"Secretary of State Pieter De Crem (CD & V) is the first member of the government to speak out in no uncertain terms in the controversial file about the purchase of new fighter planes. 'If you want to tax the taxpayers at a cost, you have to choose the Rafale.'"
ouch.
Pieter De Crem: 'Ik ben ervan overtuigd: de F-35 is de beste aankoop'
ouch.
Pieter De Crem: 'Ik ben ervan overtuigd: de F-35 is de beste aankoop'
Remember, he's not a politician, US-EU relations are at an all time low.
Perhaps it's time for people to face the facts. The F-35 is going to be an even greater success than the F-16 program.
Perhaps it's time for people to face the facts. The F-35 is going to be an even greater success than the F-16 program.
It's correct when he says the French are offering something that doesn't yet exist. If the Belgians want immediate deliveries of the F-35, they can go ahead. No point waiting for the Rafale F4.
But he does sound a bit biased towards the Americans.
De Crem is completely bought by Lockheed. He's been pro F-35 ever since he hoped to become the next NATO secretary general. Too bad for him, Belgium didn't end up getting on the F-35 train despite his efforts, so it's the Norwegian Stoltenberg who got the post. De Crem is still really bitter about that.
If what France is offering is something that doesn't exist yet, then the same logic should be applied to the F-35, which as I remind everyone has not even reached FOC. The choice is between an evolution of a fully operation aircraft by an industrial team that has demonstrated that they can reach the performance requirements within the given budget and without extending their deadlines, and the promised operational status of a development prototype by an industrial team that has only demonstrated staggering incompetence, ballooning development costs, and ever-increasing delays.
But hey, the F-35 is such a success that one of their satisfied customers, Denmark, will stop all air operations for at least three years to manage the transition. Don't worry, if Russia invades in the meantime, Denmark will get to be protected by French Rafales.
As it takes on F-35, Denmark prepares to halt global operations
If what France is offering is something that doesn't exist yet, then the same logic should be applied to the F-35, which as I remind everyone has not even reached FOC. The choice is between an evolution of a fully operation aircraft by an industrial team that has demonstrated that they can reach the performance requirements within the given budget and without extending their deadlines, and the promised operational status of a development prototype by an industrial team that has only demonstrated staggering incompetence, ballooning development costs, and ever-increasing delays.
But hey, the F-35 is such a success that one of their satisfied customers, Denmark, will stop all air operations for at least three years to manage the transition. Don't worry, if Russia invades in the meantime, Denmark will get to be protected by French Rafales.
As it takes on F-35, Denmark prepares to halt global operations
11 years after the first flight of a serial one, FOC is not given...
so technically it's not a success, and the program only survived thanks to the USAF commitment. And it's sure USAF will never take the 1600 promised. As GB, as Italy, as Dutch....This plane is bad born. All the contrary of the marvellous F16.
It's a country of like 5million, who has consistently participated in coalition operations.
What is France going to do about Germany? They have a much larger budget, but its military is falling apart as we speak with no signs of getting any better. Even though they haven't participated in any real war since WW2 except Afghanistan where they gave the biggest half-*censored* effort possible.
Germany has basically halted domestic military operations. It would fail to defend itself from Poland in its current state.
I'd give our Danish friends a pass here. It's not easy to transition to radically different military systems.
I can't wait for the French reaction when German politics blocks a military sale.
German military budget is mostly personnel expenses. It's basically disguised welfare. The German military is in shambles simply because they don't have enough credits for maintenance and procurement, and even despite the humiliating reports, there's still strong political opposition to spending more, both from the austerity-worshipers for whom public spending is inherently evil, and from the pacifistic sheep who just don't like everything military-related.
Such a state has long been desired by the rest of the west, to break Germany's bellicosity. I'll refer you to the old joke about NATO being designed "to keep Russia out, America in, and Germany down".
What is France going to do about it? Basically get Germany to adopt the same doctrine and strategic vision as France, while tying German muscle to intergovernmental mechanisms. See the European Intervention Initiative for a good example of the kind of small steps are made in this direction. Don't expect anything flashy or sudden, this is a long term project, which will have to move slowly. Keep in mind the principle of action-reaction, if you push too hard, you'll get a lot more pushback.
Fortunately, with Trump's USA being openly antagonistic to the EU and NATO while cozying up with Putin and other dictators, and both America and Russia sowing chaos in Europe's Near-East and threatening Europe's stability in the process through the massive influx of refugees the two great powers are creating, European populations are starting, slowly, to realize that America is not a reliable ally anymore. The more time passes, the more blatant this is becoming. As things are shaping with Trump and Brexit, France will become Europe's only stalwart protector.
Such a state has long been desired by the rest of the west, to break Germany's bellicosity. I'll refer you to the old joke about NATO being designed "to keep Russia out, America in, and Germany down".
What is France going to do about it? Basically get Germany to adopt the same doctrine and strategic vision as France, while tying German muscle to intergovernmental mechanisms. See the European Intervention Initiative for a good example of the kind of small steps are made in this direction. Don't expect anything flashy or sudden, this is a long term project, which will have to move slowly. Keep in mind the principle of action-reaction, if you push too hard, you'll get a lot more pushback.
Fortunately, with Trump's USA being openly antagonistic to the EU and NATO while cozying up with Putin and other dictators, and both America and Russia sowing chaos in Europe's Near-East and threatening Europe's stability in the process through the massive influx of refugees the two great powers are creating, European populations are starting, slowly, to realize that America is not a reliable ally anymore. The more time passes, the more blatant this is becoming. As things are shaping with Trump and Brexit, France will become Europe's only stalwart protector.
This point will be dealed before the formal launch of the project.
It's a milestone for the french.
I think Trump made involuntarily, by stupidity, the best effect possible to modify the european defense. Thank you Donald !
And the main country to change deep will be, soon, Germany.
Best of luck France, USA def tried their best to snap Germany into senses in the conventional way.
Never underestimate German politics. Never.
A deal is a deal.
It's always better to agree before than after. We perfectly known our dear neighbours.
JSM is wrapping up its final tests in the United States.
Initial integration onto Norwegian and American F-35s is set to begin in 2023. F-16's will also see the JSM be integrated with them, a boon for East European nations buying second-hand F-16s from allied nations Integration with surface ships and submarines will follow.
JSM and Turkey's SOM-J are the only two cruise-missiles certified for use on the F-35's internal weapons bays.
Initial integration onto Norwegian and American F-35s is set to begin in 2023. F-16's will also see the JSM be integrated with them, a boon for East European nations buying second-hand F-16s from allied nations Integration with surface ships and submarines will follow.
JSM and Turkey's SOM-J are the only two cruise-missiles certified for use on the F-35's internal weapons bays.
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A brief video of the most recent test.
JSM has actually been redesigned since this photo was taken, to further optimize the design of the missile.
JSM and SOM-J are going to add another level of capabilities to allied air-craft (and submarine and surface ships for JSM).
Lol. Unlike Germany, Poland's at least trying to modernize its force. Replacing its aging ex-Danish (by way of Norway) Kobben class submarines with a Type 212A-mod, buying NSM from Norway, JASSM-ER for the US, modernizing its rifle programs, upgrading its tanks, adding new self-propelled artillery and guided rockets, the navy still needs some work on more capable ships then ex-US Perry class frigates, but they're really making progress, and unlike Germany, are actually available for combat if needed.
Germany's become complacent. Maybe the recent issues with US leadership will light a fire under their butts? I doubt it.
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Any idea if the JSM can get an active seeker option?
@vstol Jockey What say about the JSM going on the MSA? 500+Km with a 230Kg warhead. 2 JSMs internally and 2 Brahmos-M on wings are gonna make an excellent combo.