Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

I would be surprised if the F-35 is led by a Marine Corps officer. A navy officer is pretty normal when the navy is financially in charge of both the boat versions.

You shouldn't be surprised the marines are running things.

They are easily the most powerful political branch RN.

"Having Mattis run the Defense Department would put the Marines in their most powerful position ever — they’d have the secretary of defense, the Chairman Joint Chief of Staff, and the commandant. "
 
Something must have gone wrong for the ship. And that was a different time. Since then the Exocet and most other AShMs have stayed the same while radars have become better.
First gen Exocet and newer one are differents : new seeker, more stealth.
 
US Senate passes bill prohibiting sale of F-35 jets to Turkey

The U.S. Senate overwhelmingly approved a $717 billion defense policy bill on August 1, which includes an amendment that prohibits the sale of F-35 jets to Turkey until Pentagon issues a report in 90 days.

The 87-10 vote for the annual National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) will give the Pentagon a $638 billion base budget for defense-related programs linked to the Department of Energy plus an additional $69 billion for possible overseas operations.

The bill would also authorize a 2.6 percent pay raise for troops, the largest in nearly a decade, as well as boost the size of the Navy and the ranks of the military services by 15,600 active-duty troops.

The Pentagon report is expected to include an assessment of Turkey's participation in the F-35 program as well as the risks that would be posed by the country's purchase of the Russian S-400 missile defense system,

Criticizing the U.S. for trying to force Turkey not to purchase the S-400 air defense system from Russia, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu last week recalled that Turkey had been trying to purchase the Patriot air defense system from the U.S., but the missiles have never been sold to Turkey when they were needed the most.

"This is the reason why Turkey, which is in urgent need of these weapons, has chosen to purchase them from Russia," he added.

Touching on the F-35 fighter jets, Çavuşoğlu also emphasized that if Washington as the worst-case scenario decides not to sell F-35s to Turkey, then no one can tell Turkey not to buy aircraft from a second country or not to produce its own.

Turkey has been in the F-35 program since 1999. The Turkish defense industry has taken an active role in the production of aircraft. Alp Aviation, AYESAS, Kale Aviation, Kale Pratt & Whitney and Turkish Aerospace Industries have been producing parts for the first F-35fighter jet.

Turkey plans to purchase 100 F-35 fighter jets in the coming years, according to state-run Anadolu Agency.

US Senate passes bill prohibiting sale of F-35 jets to Turkey
 
US Senate passes bill prohibiting sale of F-35 jets to Turkey

The U.S. Senate overwhelmingly approved a $717 billion defense policy bill on August 1, which includes an amendment that prohibits the sale of F-35 jets to Turkey until Pentagon issues a report in 90 days.

The 87-10 vote for the annual National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) will give the Pentagon a $638 billion base budget for defense-related programs linked to the Department of Energy plus an additional $69 billion for possible overseas operations.

The bill would also authorize a 2.6 percent pay raise for troops, the largest in nearly a decade, as well as boost the size of the Navy and the ranks of the military services by 15,600 active-duty troops.

The Pentagon report is expected to include an assessment of Turkey's participation in the F-35 program as well as the risks that would be posed by the country's purchase of the Russian S-400 missile defense system,

Criticizing the U.S. for trying to force Turkey not to purchase the S-400 air defense system from Russia, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu last week recalled that Turkey had been trying to purchase the Patriot air defense system from the U.S., but the missiles have never been sold to Turkey when they were needed the most.

"This is the reason why Turkey, which is in urgent need of these weapons, has chosen to purchase them from Russia," he added.

Touching on the F-35 fighter jets, Çavuşoğlu also emphasized that if Washington as the worst-case scenario decides not to sell F-35s to Turkey, then no one can tell Turkey not to buy aircraft from a second country or not to produce its own.

Turkey has been in the F-35 program since 1999. The Turkish defense industry has taken an active role in the production of aircraft. Alp Aviation, AYESAS, Kale Aviation, Kale Pratt & Whitney and Turkish Aerospace Industries have been producing parts for the first F-35fighter jet.

Turkey plans to purchase 100 F-35 fighter jets in the coming years, according to state-run Anadolu Agency.

US Senate passes bill prohibiting sale of F-35 jets to Turkey

Yeah...
We'll talk about it in a little less than 90 days.
They will not shoot themselves in the feet.
 
USAF F-22s and RNoAF F-35s training in Norway.

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In 2009, An F-22 Raptor Was "Killed" in a Mock Battle (Thanks to France)
“No matter how magical the F-22, any pilot can make a mistake,” admitted Lt. Col. Dirk Smith, a Raptor squadron commander.

by David Axe

The key, Gruene said, was to get as close as possible to the powerful F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.”

Past evidence seems to confirms that a French fighter pilot once “killed” an American F-22 Raptor stealth fighter in mock combat.

Although not unprecedented, the simulated shoot-down is still a big deal for a couple reasons.

For one, the Lockheed Martin-made F-22 is supposed to be the most fearsome warplane in history, a quarter-billion-dollar-per-plane technological marvel that flies higher and faster than its opponents while avoiding detection by radar. The Pentagon is counting on a tiny number of the pricey Raptors — slightly more than 180 — to ward off potentially much larger numbers of enemy planes for the foreseeable future. Every mock dogfight the F-22 loses undermines the Pentagon’s plans for air dominance .

Plus, the French still have a totally undeserved reputation in non-French military circles for battlefield incompetence — one based mostly on a bad reading of World War II history. That a French pilot could defeat an F-22 speaks volumes about the Raptor’s limitations … and about French air-combat prowess seven decades after Paris’ surrender to Nazi Germany.

The French victory over the F-22 occurred in November 2009. A squad of F-22s from the Air Force’s 1st Fighter Wing in Virginia flew to Al Dhafra, in the UAE , to train with French air force Rafale fighters and Typhoon jets from the British Royal Air Force.

The following month, the French Ministry of Defense released video captures from a Rafale’s forward-facing camera showing an F-22 in a disadvantageous dogfighting position, implying the French plane had won at least one round of pretend fighting.

But the American pilots insisted their planes had gone undefeated against the French during the November exercise — that, in fact, the F-22s had “shot down” Rafales in six one-on-one engagements. Five other simulated battles ended in draws, the Americans said. The U.S. pilots copped to just one loss in the war game — an F-22 defeated by a Mirage 2000 flown by an Emirati aviator.

But a video posted by a French Website on June 18 proves that the Americans were lying — or at least incorrect. The video from the Rafale’s camera clearly shows the French plane maneuvering into a good position to launch an infrared-guided Mica missile against a defending F-22.

To be fair, it’s unclear what scenario the jets were playing out: whether, for instance, the F-22 started out slower and lower in order to let the Rafale gain the advantage for training purposes. Nevertheless, the video shows that the Rafale, a decade older and less sophisticated compared to the F-22, can be roughly comparable to the Raptor when maneuvering at low speed during close combat.

Even before the Emirati and French wins in 2009, the Americans knew the F-22 could be beaten, although they rarely mentioned this uncomfortable fact. During the Raptor’s first-ever major air exercise in 2006, an Air Force F-16 most likely dating from the 1980s managed to “kill” an F-22. A Navy Growler jet,designed to jam enemy radars, repeated the feat in 2008 or early 2009.

“No matter how magical the F-22, any pilot can make a mistake,” admitted Lt. Col. Dirk Smith, a Raptor squadron commander.

And the 2009 war game would not be the last to result in “dead” Raptors. In June 2012 a contingent of German pilots (flying the same new Typhoon fighters as the British) figured out the best tactics for shooting down the F-22.

Eight times during a two-week war game in Alaska, individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate close-range dogfights. “ We were evenly matched ,” German Maj. Marc Gruene told Combat Aircraft .

The key, Gruene said, was to get as close as possible to the powerful F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.”

Gruene said the Raptor excels at fighting from beyond visual range with its high speed and altitude, high-tech radar and long-range missiles. But in a slower, close tangle — what pilots call a “merge” — the heavier F-22 is at a disadvantage. “As soon as you get to the merge … the Typhoon doesn’t necessarily have to fear the F-22,” Gruene said.

Neither does the 30-year-old American F-16, a Navy jamming plane or the 1990s-vintage Rafale — flown by a Frenchman! The worrying implication, of course, is that Chinese, Russian and other rival planes also need not worry about America’s main jet fighter.
 
The consequences of cutting Turkey out of F-35 program

As US-Turkey ties continue their downward spiral, with both sides engaging in a tit-for-tat of sanctions and tariffs after Ankara refused to release an American pastor detained on terrorism charges, Turkey’s future in the F-35 program is being held hostage.

US President Donald Trump recently signed into law a defense spending bill that blocks the transfer of the fifth-generation fighter jet to Turkey. The legislation came just weeks after the first F-35 aircraft was delivered into Turkish possession, though the jet will remain on US soil for a training program.

While some lawmakers have brought up the case of the detained US citizen as one reason to hold up the F-35 transfer, the main concern cited by Congress was Ankara’s decision to purchase the advanced Russian S-400 missile defense system.

US Defense Secretary James Mattis has lobbied Congress to allow Turkey to remain in the program. An analysis published by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute on Tuesday explained why Mattis is concerned and why cutting Turkey out of the consortium will cause headaches for Australia and other participants.

“If Turkey is excluded from the JSF program, it would in turn cease providing components to the [F-35 Joint Strike Fighter] production line. That’s why Secretary of Defense James Mattis opposed the proposal, arguing in a letter to Congress that, ‘If the Turkish supply chain was disrupted today, it would result in an aircraft production break, delaying delivery of 50–75 F-35s, and would take approximately 18–24 months to re-source parts and recover,’” Marcus Hellyer wrote.

He added that Australia’s air force is on a tight timeline to get up and running with 33 F-35s within the next three years, and a two-year production delay would derail those plans.

Turkey was also assigned responsibility for engine deep maintenance in Europe, according to Hellyer, highlighting the degree of interdependence among the consortium members.

At the same time, Australia shares the US concerns about Turkey’s purchase of the Russian missile defense system.

“The JSF was designed to defeat high-end Russian air-defense systems such as the S-400. Russia will be very anxious to understand the JSF’s electromagnetic signatures, in particular, its radar profile. […]The Russian technicians who will be assisting the Turks to introduce and operate the S-400 will no doubt be collecting JSF signature data that can be used to develop tactics to defeat it,” Hellyer speculated in the article.

“In a ‘normal’ world one would expect the flow of information to go in the other direction, with Turkey sharing key signature and performance data on the S-400 with other NATO members. But when a NATO member is planning to acquire Russian air-defense systems, we’re not in a normal world anymore—not to mention Erdoğan’s threats to find new and different allies.”

The consequences of cutting Turkey out of F-35 program
 
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Now, US will sell those F-35s to India and France will sell Rafales to Turkey.

Turkey's already threatened to choose the PAK FA.

What's funny is if the Turk-US relations deteriorate even further, the Turks know everything necessary about the F-35, which they can pass on to the Russians, along with a lot of other NATO secrets. I doubt it will reach that point, but it's a worst case scenario for NATO.
 
FC-31 design was in competition with FC-20 (not same research institute design), FC (now J)-20 won. Fc-31 is not really fit to china's doctrina.
 
FC-31 design was in competition with FC-20 (not same research institute design), FC (now J)-20 won. Fc-31 is not really fit to china's doctrina.

FC-31 wasn't in competition with J-20. There is no FC-20.

FC-31 was made by Shenyang independently for export. What actually lost to the J-20 is unknown.