Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Any idea if the JSM can get an active seeker option?

@vstol Jockey What say about the JSM going on the MSA? 500+Km with a 230Kg warhead. 2 JSMs internally and 2 Brahmos-M on wings are gonna make an excellent combo.
The SE design of MSA could carry only two missiles with max circumference of 40cms. But after going thru the RFI of IAF, I can say that we can have three modes of MSA ops. Complete stealth for ASM role with 4xBVRAAMs and 2xWVRAAMs. no exposed weapon.
Second is strike mission, we can have 8xspice250 with 2xBVRAAMs and 2xWVRAAMs internally. and for AA mission we can have 6xBVRAAMs and 2xWVRAAMs internally in full stealth configuration. However in partial stealth mode which includes 2xWVRAAMs on wingtip pylons, we can carry, 3xASM or 10xSPICE250 and equivalent or 12xOFB120 bombs.
 
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The SE design of MSA could carry only two missiles with max circumference of 40cms.

I think the JSM cannot fit inside the F-35B. So you are going to have to take a call on that.

But after going thru the RFI of IAF, I can say that we can have three modes of MSA ops. Complete stealth for ASM role with 4xBVRAAMs and 2xWVRAAMs. no exposed weapon.

So 2 AAMs in the main bay along with 2 AShMs (or 1?) and 4 AAMs in the side bays? I guess the side bays will always carry 4 missiles right?

Second is strike mission, we can have 8xspice250 with 2xBVRAAMs and 2xWVRAAMs internally. and for AA mission we can have 6xBVRAAMs and 2xWVRAAMs internally in full stealth configuration.

Anything much heavier than 250lbs? 1000lbs?

However in partial stealth mode which includes 2xWVRAAMs on wingtip pylons, we can carry, 3xASM or 10xSPICE250 and equivalent or 12xOFB120 bombs.

When you say partial, to what degree will the RCS increase? If we expect the ASRAAM's RCS to be 0.1m2, then the 2 missiles is already 0.2m2. Not stealth anymore right?
 
Any idea if the JSM can get an active seeker option?

That depends on whether a customer is willing to finance the development of an active seeker and the missile's redesign to accommodate one. As of right now there's no requirement for an active seeker on either the JSM or NSM missiles. Australia, in conjunction with Raytheon and Kongsberg, is developing a passive RF seeker, giving the missile and capability of homing on electronic emissions, but that's the only other seeker development program I'm familiar with at the moment.

Can it get an active seeker? Sure. But the countries developing and likely using the missile don't have that requirement, but if someone else is willing to cough up the cash, it's not unfeasible.
 
Too bad, I assumed the US will be interested at the very least.

Actually the US is moving away from missiles with active homing as part of its doctrinal shift to a networked warfare concept - Cooperative Engagement Capability - which leverages a missile's ability to be slued to external sensors such as ship radars, aircraft IR sensors like the F-35's DAS or even satellites. Using the CEC concept they've even demonstrated kill-shots by SM-6 missiles launched from destroyers and targeting cruise missiles overland and behind mountain cover, where the ship's own radars wouldn't have a chance.

The latest anti-ship missile of the US Navy, the LRASM, and its cousin JASSM, also don't have active seekers. Like the JSM and NSM missile families they find their way to a target from up to 1000km by way of internal navigation, GPS, automatic target recognition, RF seekers and IIR, which when combined, make active homing moot.

webdpwk12-lrasm-pic.jpg


The one bucking the trend is the Tomahawk Block IV AShM, but that's not really a new concept, just a return of the initial capability of the Block I missile. It's more of an augment to the existing Harpoon stocks until the LRASM and NSM are adopted service wide in the USN.

Active homing is still relevant, but mostly for fast missiles, that, because of their speed, need to find their targets quickly since they just don't have time to pick and choose targets and even areas on those targets that they can hit for maximum effect, like JSM or LRASM can.

Any idea why there isn't an active version planned? Cost?

It's important to remember two points when thinking about either JSM or NSM;

1. They're marketed as anti-ship missiles.

2. Despite collaboration with foreign partners, secondary land-attack roles, and use by allied nations, they are ultimately Norwegian designs designed to fight in a Norwegian theater. Cold climate, mountainous, water-heavy, all areas where IR signature is more pronounced and radar is confuddled. It's simply easier to pick out a Russian Navy landing craft for battlecruiser by its IR signature against the frigged Barents Sea or the RF signature of its festoon of sensors.

Also used by foreign partners including Turkey, Greece, the United States, New Zealand and Brazil, Penguin didn't have an active seeker either. IR for terminal runs and a pulse-laser and radar altimeter for navigation.

10011547_10152918386048009_8494500186240643995_o.jpg


Like its successors in NSM and JSM the choice of IR guidance was due to two factors;

1. Norway's climate and principle adversary in Russia, especially the Russian Navy, made IR more practical then radar as IR signatures are harder to mask in cold climates then are radar returns.

2. IR allows the missile to operate in littoral waters, which its launch platform in the Hauk class MTB (and Skjold for JSM), would most like launch an assault against Russian craft from.

4706810680_656884dcf5_b.jpg


Radar famously has the limitation of poor performance in built up areas such as Norway's outlying islands or fjords. IR doesn't. Both Norway and the Russian north look like this:

pBD0gXM.jpg


It's very difficult for a radar guided misisle to operate on-the-deck in an area like that.

So we see that with JSM and NSM, from Norway's perspective, and like with Penguin that was used by international partners, are ultimately, and first-and-foremost designed for operations in a Norwegian theater, the viability and necessity of an active seeker is lessened by the climate and threat profile versus a IR, ATR or RF option.

And this does translate to other countries too. The US and Australia, to critical partners on the JSM program, both intend to operate the missile primarily at sea where its IR and intelligence, coupled with automatic target recognition and radio frequency guidance combine to make a more effective, and less visible, guidance package.

There's also that active seekers would be noticeable to hostile sensors. Any radio return can be pickup and used to locate the source, betraying the missile and lessening its stealthiness, which is a main draw for both NSM and JSM.
 
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Actually the US is moving away from missiles with active homing as part of its doctrinal shift to a networked warfare concept - Cooperative Engagement Capability - which leverages a missile's ability to be slued to external sensors such as ship radars, aircraft IR sensors like the F-35's DAS or even satellites. Using the CEC concept they've even demonstrated kill-shots by SM-6 missiles launched from destroyers and targeting cruise missiles overland and behind mountain cover, where the ship's own radars wouldn't have a chance.

The latest anti-ship missile of the US Navy, the LRASM, and its cousin JASSM, also don't have active seekers. Like the JSM and NSM missile families they find their way to a target from up to 1000km by way of internal navigation, GPS, automatic target recognition, RF seekers and IIR, which when combined, make active homing moot.

webdpwk12-lrasm-pic.jpg


The one bucking the trend is the Tomahawk Block IV AShM, but that's not really a new concept, just a return of the initial capability of the Block I missile. It's more of an augment to the existing Harpoon stocks until the LRASM and NSM are adopted service wide in the USN.

Active homing is still relevant, but mostly for fast missiles, that, because of their speed, need to find their targets quickly since they just don't have time to pick and choose targets and even areas on those targets that they can hit for maximum effect, like JSM or LRASM can.



It's important to remember two points when thinking about either JSM or NSM;

1. They're marketed as anti-ship missiles.

2. Despite collaboration with foreign partners, secondary land-attack roles, and use by allied nations, they are ultimately Norwegian designs designed to fight in a Norwegian theater. Cold climate, mountainous, water-heavy, all areas where IR signature is more pronounced and radar is confuddled. It's simply easier to pick out a Russian Navy landing craft for battlecruiser by its IR signature against the frigged Barents Sea or the RF signature of its festoon of sensors.

Also used by foreign partners including Turkey, Greece, the United States, New Zealand and Brazil, Penguin didn't have an active seeker either. IR for terminal runs and a pulse-laser and radar altimeter for navigation.

10011547_10152918386048009_8494500186240643995_o.jpg


Like its successors in NSM and JSM the choice of IR guidance was due to two factors;

1. Norway's climate and principle adversary in Russia, especially the Russian Navy, made IR more practical then radar as IR signatures are harder to mask in cold climates then are radar returns.

2. IR allows the missile to operate in littoral waters, which its launch platform in the Hauk class MTB (and Skjold for JSM), would most like launch an assault against Russian craft from.

4706810680_656884dcf5_b.jpg


Radar famously has the limitation of poor performance in built up areas such as Norway's outlying islands or fjords. IR doesn't. Both Norway and the Russian north look like this:

pBD0gXM.jpg


It's very difficult for a radar guided misisle to operate on-the-deck in an area like that.

So we see that with JSM and NSM, from Norway's perspective, and like with Penguin that was used by international partners, are ultimately, and first-and-foremost designed for operations in a Norwegian theater, the viability and necessity of an active seeker is lessened by the climate and threat profile versus a IR, ATR or RF option.

And this does translate to other countries too. The US and Australia, to critical partners on the JSM program, both intend to operate the missile primarily at sea where its IR and intelligence, coupled with automatic target recognition and radio frequency guidance combine to make a more effective, and less visible, guidance package.

There's also that active seekers would be noticeable to hostile sensors. Any radio return can be pickup and used to locate the source, betraying the missile and lessening its stealthiness, which is a main draw for both NSM and JSM.

Finland picked the Gabriel 5 over the NSM recently (could be because of the smaller warhead).

As for the stealthiness argument, I doubt these missiles are so stealthy that they won't get picked up on radar from such short ranges in the terminal phase.
 
As for the stealthiness argument, I doubt these missiles are so stealthy that they won't get picked up on radar from such short ranges in the terminal phase.
See Stark attack by active homing Exocet.
Too many time available to answer to such an attack.
The new ships enable to reduce this answer time, but in the same time the missile are stealthier so are visible later ....
 
Finland picked the Gabriel 5 over the NSM recently (could be because of the smaller warhead).

True, It's surprising, but Finland's largest surface combatant - Hamina - is actually smaller then our smallest - Skjold. Hamina is longer by a few meters, but Skjold is heavier and wider. The RBS-15mk2 of the Hamina is larger then NSM, but the Hamina can only carry 4 versus the 8 NSM of the Skjold, so the small size of Gabriel was definitely a factor for Finland. Not the warhead, but overall size of the missile. Finland's navy is small in tonnage.

Outside of the Finnish Archipelago;

Fullscreen+capture+4292014+50922+PM.jpg


videoblocks-finnish-archipelago-cinema-4k-aerial-coming-down-view-of-tammisaari-archipe_rugwqgp0ax_thumbnail-full01.png


^^Take that and multiply it by a thousand and you have Norwegian waters:giggle:.

Most of Finlands waters are devoid of features, unlike those of Norway which are littered with thousands of outlying islands. They're also more calm then the Barents and North Seas where sea state 5 is the norm, not exception. In short, while technically littoral due to their proximity to land, they're much more open then either the Norwegian coast or Russian north meaning there's less obstructions for radar returns to be blocked or fooled by.

Both the Gulfs of Bothnia and Finland are relatively devoid of features, sans occasional island.

Suursaari.jpg


The active radar seeker of Gabriel has less to contend with over a wider area. Finland's waters, with the exception of the upper Gulf of Bothnia, are warmer then Norwegian waters as well. Come winter the upper Gulf of Bothnia freezes, but not the Gulf of Finland. Also on this picture can we see the relatively uncongested nature of the waters around Finland and the lack of obstructions outside of the Finnish Archipelago. We also see the inland waterways that Norwegian vessels like the Hauk or Skjold would use as bastions to launch Penguin or NSM missiles against Russia, features Finland lacks.

800px-Scandinavia_M2002074_lrg.jpg


In short; Norway and Finland, despite both being Nordic countries, face radically different theaters of operations where either form of missile guidance would be more applicable then another.
 
Russians given an opportunity to tour Ørland Air Station, where Norway bases its F-35s. And yes, this is a normal occurance in line with the 2011 OSCE Vienna Document.

rustningskontrolljul2018.jpg
 
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See Stark attack by active homing Exocet.
Too many time available to answer to such an attack.
The new ships enable to reduce this answer time, but in the same time the missile are stealthier so are visible later ....

Something must have gone wrong for the ship. And that was a different time. Since then the Exocet and most other AShMs have stayed the same while radars have become better.
 
Interestingly, the Program Executive Officer for F-35 procurement is Vice Admiral Mathias Winter.

ORL180614hh_020.t5b22e05b.m800.xE8Dfrgay.jpg


ORL180614hh_014.t5b22e007.m800.x--Xn6kjO.jpg


Brigadier Morten Klever is Norway's F-35 Program Director though, and General Tonje Skinnarland is the Chief of the Air Force.

I'm not sure how common it is to have a Navy flag officer in charge of an Air Force program.
 
Interestingly, the Program Executive Officer for F-35 procurement is Vice Admiral Mathias Winter.

ORL180614hh_020.t5b22e05b.m800.xE8Dfrgay.jpg


ORL180614hh_014.t5b22e007.m800.x--Xn6kjO.jpg


Brigadier Morten Klever is Norway's F-35 Program Director though, and General Tonje Skinnarland is the Chief of the Air Force.

I'm not sure how common it is to have a Navy flag officer in charge of an Air Force program.

I would be surprised if the F-35 is led by a Marine Corps officer. A navy officer is pretty normal when the navy is financially in charge of both the boat versions.