Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
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This debate is going senseless. Comparing a stealth aircraft with J10 and then Rafale other non stealth aircraft is a joke.
You missed the 30% commission to Indian bureaucrats and politicians in this.
Considering they were consistently slaughtered by the IAF during exercises, including admitting they got slaughtered in the very first exercise we had as well, by publicly claiming they lost 90% of the engagements in 2004.
In pre-Red Flag exercises, the Su-30s managed a 23:1 kill ratio against USAF F-15s.
You don't really know much about the history of air power. None of the Western air forces have ever fought the Soviet Union or Russia and none of the Western air forces have yet fought the Flanker either. The only Fulcrums the West fought were monkey models that were exported without much electronics. And during exercises, the IAF Flankers have consistently overperformed against the Teens.
After the collapse of the SU, the only Mig-29s the West became accustomed to was the much better but still downgraded Warsaw Pact jets from East Germany. And even those slaughtered F-16s in dog fights, apparently the role the F-16 was made for.
Read the bit under "Positives", although I'd recommend reading the whole thing.
Otoh, the SU versions were actual beasts, they were nearly unmanned, which was an incredible achievement at the time and had electronics that were a generation ahead compared to what was exported. It was only after the collapse of the SU and when Chinese and Indian invesments started coming in that the SU's actual capabilities became publicly available to a certain extent. Even in that case, some stuff was still downgraded and were replaced with alternatives in both Indian and Chinese models. You forget that while the US introduced electronically scanned radars in the early 2000s, the SU had done it back in the early 80s. Indian money put the radar on a Flanker or else it would have gotten the same radar back in the 80s under the SU, ie 20 years before the US did it.
Hell, their biggest achievement in demonstrating their industrial capability was the unmanned flight of their space shuttle, something even the US thought was impossible. The SU were also pioneers in ramjet/scramjet tech, the US had the tech transferred using blackmail and it was SU tech which kicked off American hypersonics. So is it any surprise that the Russians are so far ahead in hypersonics today compared to the US?
LM's VTOL design for the F-35 also came from the SU.
How The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter May Have Benefited from Soviet Technology
For all the yelling and shouting over the Department of Defense’s much-maligned F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, there’s an unusual, often overlooked
taskandpurpose.com
Just so you know, in the next few years, the Russians will be flight testing the world's first near space-capable fighter.
Russia Says Its MiG-41 Fighter Will Fly in Outer Space
nationalinterest.org
As for the F-15's combat record, nothing special really happened, the Syrians were more than a full generation behind the Israelis, so the result was obvious. No different over Iraq and Serbia, where the enemies had to contend with the full might of NATO, so they decided not to bother fighting back. Most of Iraq's air force was destroyed on the ground or was moved to Iran.
Only American rabid fanboys underestimate the Russians.
That is the case, genius. Because NATO's training is superior. So Russian gear, outside Russia, perhaps even India, will need to be better than NATO gear if it is to win. There are very, very few cases where the manpower of the adversary is potentially superior to NATO forces. How much dumber can your arguments get?
Not exactly. In a way, yes, in a way, no.
The SU sold us mostly junk, but it still worked if the training was good enough. While the IAF could afford plenty of flying hours, the other air forces could not. We fly as much as NATO.
At the very least, in order to prevent the West from selling us advanced jets, the SU always tried to sell us their advanced jets as quickly as possible. Which is why we were the first operators of both the Mig-21 and Mig-29.
But when it came to the Russians, India invested a lot of money into their aerospace sector in the 90s and early 2000s, which is how we got the Su-30 and Mig-21 Bison. And with our domestic industry catching up and our relations with the Israelis, we managed to customise Russian jets with our own EW and some other systems, which made it better than the downgraded stuff the Russians tried to supply to us at the time. The Russians have a habit of protecting their EW systems quite a bit.
Compared to the F-15. Way, way, way better than the F-16. Way, way, way, way, way, way better than the F-104.
He's got you there Spitfire6. It was a bloodbath. The USAF released the results, as soon as they landed. Even before India could. Some say it was already written. I don't remember the LER, but it may well have been 23:1. The USAF wanted more Raptors.
The F-16 were decimated in 2005 too. I think there was another model to replace the F-16. I can't remember the name? You may know of it.
Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
Foreign fighter jets performed well against F-16s in recent exercises.
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It's the same thing when there are 20:1 results in favour of the F-35, it's because they want to sell F-35s.He's got you there Spitfire6. It was a bloodbath. The USAF released the results, as soon as they landed. Even before India could. Some say it was already written. I don't remember the LER, but it may well have been 23:1. The USAF wanted more Raptors.
The F-16 were decimated in 2005 too. I think there was another model to replace the F-16. I can't remember the name? You may know of it.
Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
Foreign fighter jets performed well against F-16s in recent exercises.www.csmonitor.com
He's got you there Spitfire6. It was a bloodbath. The USAF released the results, as soon as they landed. Even before India could. Some say it was already written. I don't remember the LER, but it may well have been 23:1. The USAF wanted more Raptors.
The F-16 were decimated in 2005 too. I think there was another model to replace the F-16. I can't remember the name? You may know of it.
Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
Foreign fighter jets performed well against F-16s in recent exercises.
No one buys and sells jets based on the outcome of these type of exercises involving only a handful of pilots.
The 23:1 kill ratio is from before Red Flag in the US in 2008, not the ones mentioned in the article, which happened in India before 2006.
The F-15C fought monkey model mig 29's and mig 25's. It has never faced a flanker for all its records. The f-15 is an excellent airframe but still outdated. The flanker is a superior design that's just a fact the only reason it's behind is due to lack of AESA and a reliable western engine.
Airframe to airframe it's a superior design. It's just western delusion if they think otherwise.
F-15 is actually behind Rafale,flanker,typhoon,super hornet,j16. The thing has a huge rcs and will be pretty much taken out in peer to peer bvr fight. Especially older f-15EX's.
I remember an Indian exercise, where the F-15 was decimated by India. The article I posted was a different one and was the F-16. So India got both the F-15 and F-16.
Meanwhile the USN kept a high LER in exercises with the mig-29 and SU-30. They didn't get the memo. The USN start their exercises easy as Red USN. They build up pressure, as the exercise period goes on. As the Blue AF gains experience. I mainly know of the Malaysian exercises.
pic-oil, when the f-35 was under threat of cancelation. They had sim results, LER of 6:1 - 4 vs 8 red. Now that it's flying in exercises. They waited to lie and claim >20:1. When it's flying with other air forces that can see what is happening.
The USAF lied about the >20:1 in the first F-35 red flag. It was actually 87:1. Time stamp 1:04:00
Meanwhile the USN kept a high LER in exercises with the mig-29 and SU-30. They didn't get the memo. The USN start their exercises easy as Red USN. They build up pressure, as the exercise period goes on. As the Blue AF gains experience. I mainly know of the Malaysian exercises.
pic-oil, when the f-35 was under threat of cancelation. They had sim results, LER of 6:1 - 4 vs 8 red. Now that it's flying in exercises. They waited to lie and claim >20:1. When it's flying with other air forces that can see what is happening.
The USAF lied about the >20:1 in the first F-35 red flag. It was actually 87:1. Time stamp 1:04:00
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So convenient. Isn’t it ?
When facts don’t favour the narrative, pretend that it’s intentional for some trivial gains.
But if it fits in the propaganda, plaster it on every dam place as unshakable fact. Case being F35 killing unlimited amounts of F16. Gripen decimating various Chinese flankers.
Like showing M2000 in HUD of F16 or Mig 21 locked on by IAF F15.
Ignoring the fact that Su 30 mki is much better in WVR fight than any US made jet barring F22.
Ignoring the fact that those Chinese Flankers shot down same Gripen with ease in WVR fight.
The reasoning for the red flag blunder in 2004 was for additional funds for their fifth gen programmes. And that the indians sent veteran pilots while Americans sent their rookies. This is according to what Americans claim online on multiple forums.
Narratives don’t change the facts.
They were quick to give the US made systems benefit of doubt (more like they created the doubt so that to discredit the results) but not to Non-US made system.
Obviously bias will exist. It's their system at the end of the day. In 2009 red flag they leaked that video of American AF instructor who didn't even know that the flankers use Al-31's, gloating over how they defeated the flankers. It's always like that.
German mechanical engineering design is superior and is much more expensive than a Tata car. It's like comparing the jf-17 to the f-35 and say the f-35 is superior. That's just basic common sense.
F-15 on the other hand is dated airframe although reliable with aesa it's good but against a flanker equipped with aesa it loses its advantage. There's a reason USAF isn't showing any real interest in the F-15EX even though it's superior to the f-35 in some avionics. The airframe is just not made for modern air warfare, it will be taken down by a j-16. The J-11 and su30mkk's are the only planes the F-15 can reliably takeout. It's just a bomb truck now.
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Yes, with 2x A2A. You really have no idea, do you.With 2 Air to air missile.
How are you going with the Rafale fuel fraction? Have you come up with a number with 3 tanks. The last one I saw, you had 4 tanks, you ran out of stations with that one. I know we can't do one with the Rafale with external fuel and 4x 2k bombs, like the F-35 can. It would be too embarrassing.
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Give me the configuration Where th F-35 can 4x 2K Bombs please
. I have computed the Rafale range for some configuration, I wait for you to compute the same for F-35.The fuel fraction does not take into account either specific consumption nor aerodynamics.
I would like to see a scenario where the F-35 takes off 44 times in a row to destroy 87 targets (missile KP of 1), without having any maintenance problems, during that time.
As I said, you really have no idea.
I did the F-35 with 2x 2k and 2 tanks, it was .434. I think the Rafale will have .01 more with 3 tanks and bombs on outer pylons F4, but see how you go. Then we can look at engines.
2 internal, 2 on station 2/10 and 4k tanks on station 3/9
I did the F-35 with 2x 2k and 2 tanks, it was .434. I think the Rafale will have .01 more with 3 tanks and bombs on outer pylons F4, but see how you go. Then we can look at engines.
2 internal, 2 on station 2/10 and 4k tanks on station 3/9
This argument is meaningless.
Rafale's standard mission loadout includes tanks. The F-35 can't carry tanks without compromising stealth.
The F-35 has plenty of range as a tactical fighter without needing extra tanks anyway. For greater range, the US has bombers, the French don't.