Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

How? Rafale has the superior bvr missile. Ironically it's the Super-hornet with the superior wvr missile with the aim-9x. Rafale only has the mica. And super hornet self protection suite isn't anything unique it's pretty standard 4.5 gen capability but I have doubts on how effective it will be against spectra if it's active cancellation capabilities are true as claimed.
And APG 79 is not exactly known to be a performer
"The APG-79 AESA radar demonstrated marginal improvements since the previous FOT&E period and provides improved performance relative to the legacy APG-73 radar"
Rafale is much more nimble and has better STR and ITR and far better nose authority than aerodynamic disaster called F18.
MICA with HOBS and along with better HMD , Rafale has high chances to kill F18 in WVR.

In BVR F18 has AIM 120 D which is quite comparable to Meteor and together with IRST, Powerful jammers, DIRCM and Infrared jammers can shoot down Rafale. Or at least have higher chance of killing it than in WVR fight.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lolwa
An EA-18G managed to shoot down a Raptor BVR once, that was pre-NGJ.

The latest AN/ALQ-214(V)4/5 is well above SPECTRA and no SPECTRA never was as good as claimed, or anywhere even close, it was all just blog-fudge.

The APG-79 is on its 4th version and just received GaN modules, plus it's 40% larger than the RBE-2 AESA, so even when the RBE2 upgrades to GaN it will still be inferior.
Here is a good analysis of both platforms


So it’s not false to say that even in BVR fights, Rafale can easily outclass F18 (sans AIM 260) . The odds are even worse in WVR/Dogfight for a F18 pilot.
 
It's a logical guess. It didn't even make the next round in Finland so it is more than likely, in fact I'm willing to bet a whole paycheck that F-18E came in second in Swiss competition. Hopefully the Swiss disclose the results because it will prove me right.

Your plane came in third in Swissland bruh you need to deal with it.
Because you guessed it? ROFL. Unsubstantiated claim. Where is your source? And honestly i don't bother. Every country have diferent political, stategic and tactical doctrines. And they buy what fits the best these doctrines. Claiming that a plane is better than another is kiddish. The best plane is the one that suits your need. Swiss, finnish, greek or indian doctrines are different and they buy what they need. Btw, it is very unlikely that the swiss will disclose the results of their competition. They are already angry because there was a sudden unexpected rise of price AFTER the deal was made.
 
Here is a good analysis of both platforms


So it’s not false to say that even in BVR fights, Rafale can easily outclass F18 (sans AIM 260) . The odds are even worse in WVR/Dogfight for a F18 pilot.
Amateur article. First of F-18E's uses its APG-79 for offensive EW and AN/ALQ-214(V)4/5. The french plane only relies on spectra for EW since its AESA is not capable for offensive EW. Also french plane AESA doesn't have GMIT/GMTT capability which all US AESA fighters are capable of. French plane AESA's have 800+ t/r modules compared to APG-79s 1100.

Both planes going at each other won't be able to take advantage of their missiles maximum BVR capabilities since they'll likely be EW each other which will bring them a lot closer and that is where the APG-79 comes in being able to burn through the jamming sooner and being able to get the shot first.

Also F-18E's use the Aim-9xII which has LOAL capability it also has BVR capability. The 9x is a HOBS missile the 9xII takes it to another level. Aim-120D is also a HOBS missile.

At best the french plane is just a point below the F-18E in air to air and in a few months when the aim-260 enters service whatever advantage the meteor had in range will be gone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Optimist
There is nothing stopping putting a Meteor on a super hornet, if it turns out that that is a better missile. At the moment it is better than the mica (anything is) UK is still working on it, with the Japanese sensor.

Australia put a MBDA ASRAAM missile on the old hornet that has been retired. We have moved on.
"However, the recent FSP2020 document does not specifically mention F-35s, instead referring to an ‘additional air combat capability’ from around 2025. (B-21 or a 6 gen fighter?) The funding for this capability is projected to be between $4.5 and $6.7 billion, but is separate to funding for the RAAF’s Teaming Air Vehicles (Boeing Loyal Wingman) program, which will see between $7.4 and $11 billion spent from around 2027.

Last year, Head Air Combat Capability Air Vice-Marshal Cath Roberts explained to ADM: “A capability edge in the air is critical for Australia. The future air fleet will be focussed around the F-35A Lightning II, the F/A-18F Super Hornet and the EA-18G Growler. Despite our confidence in these aircraft, it is important that we continue to look for opportunities to expand our air combat capability,”
 
Last edited:
Meteor is obsolete once AIM-260 hits the market it's just that simple lol.
I was surprised how far ahead the program was.

Testing Of The Secretive New AIM-260 Long-Range Air-To-Air Missile Is Well Underway​

Publicly released documents reveal that QF-16 jets have been regularly supporting the AIM-260 missile program.​

BY THOMAS NEWDICK NOVEMBER 22, 2021

The U.S. Air Force has been busy flying QF-16 Full-Scale Aerial Target, or FSAT, missions in support of the Lockheed Martin AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile program. While the AIM-260, or JATM, remains a highly secretive weapon, it’s now clear that test work is well underway, with around 30 FSAT missions last year alone. This would make sense given that the goal is to have the new missile start arming Air Force and Navy aircraft as early as next year.

Our Twitter contact @MIL_STD brought attention to the new developments after examining publicly released Air Force data recording various test missions flown by the QF-16 FSAT fleet. This consists of F-16 fighter jets converted to drones and used as targets and also flown as manned test assets for chase and range instrumentation flights. In drone mode, these aircraft are not always shot down even during live-fire events as often the missiles hurled at them are not equipped with live warheads. As such, close enough, within the blast radius of the missile’s warheads, can be considered a kill. You can read

The Air Force first disclosed the existence of the AIM-260 program, which is a joint effort with the Navy, in 2019. Those two services intend for this missile to provide a new, longer-range weapon to replace the ubiquitous AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM).

@MIL_STD’s entire Twitter thread, portions of which are embedded below, is well worth a look, but the key details reveal that the FSAT fleet has been supporting JATM test work since April 2020, if not before. In that month, there were eight QF-16 missions in support of the new missile.


Whether some or all of these flights involved actual missile launches is unclear, although it’s certainly possible. Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida was the launch point for these missions and the facility and its target drones are regularly used to support live-fire missile sorties. In the past, it was stated that JATM flight tests should begin this year.

Later in 2020, there seems to have another relative spike in JATM test activity, with six missions flown by the QF-16s in October alone, and another two missions canceled. At the same time, it should be remembered that the FSAT activity detailed in these documents is just one aspect of a much broader joint Air Force/Navy program on the path to getting the missile into service.

While the Air Force is yet to release any such data for this year, it’s clear that 2020 saw plenty of activity for the AIM-260 program, making the fact that these missions have not so far been spotted by photographers or other observers all the more surprising. That is unless the AIM-260 looks nearly identical to the AIM-120 it replaces, which would be an accomplishment considering its supposed major step-up in capability over the already extended-range AIM-120D.

Long article folks can read the rest in link.

What I find weird is not even a mockup of this missile has been made to see what it will look like but it is incredible that it will be the size of the aim-120. PL-15 is about the size of an aim-154. This missile on F-35 will be able to kill enemy fighters deep inside enemy airspace.
 
Amateur article. First of F-18E's uses its APG-79 for offensive EW and AN/ALQ-214(V)4/5. The french plane only relies on spectra for EW since its AESA is not capable for offensive EW. Also french plane AESA doesn't have GMIT/GMTT capability which all US AESA fighters are capable of. French plane AESA's have 800+ t/r modules compared to APG-79s 1100.

Both planes going at each other won't be able to take advantage of their missiles maximum BVR capabilities since they'll likely be EW each other which will bring them a lot closer and that is where the APG-79 comes in being able to burn through the jamming sooner and being able to get the shot first.

Also F-18E's use the Aim-9xII which has LOAL capability it also has BVR capability. The 9x is a HOBS missile the 9xII takes it to another level. Aim-120D is also a HOBS missile.

At best the french plane is just a point below the F-18E in air to air and in a few months when the aim-260 enters service whatever advantage the meteor had in range will be gone.
As usual, you are showing an obvious lack of knowledge about Rafale program. We're presently talking about F4 and Rafale ISE standards here.
(i) again asserting unsubstantiated claims. nanananana WON'T nananana SINCE nanana LIKELY nanana. No evidence, no clue, just hot air.
(ii) wow LOAL capability. I'm impressed. Mica also have BVR capability, longest shot know being 67 Kms by Taiwanese air force on a target drone. And MICA NG with dual impulse engine is entering forces next year. MICA is also a HOBS missile with a LOAL mode, and mica ng will use an AESA seeker and a brand new IR matrix seeker (which btw has advantages and default compared to good old diodes array, but thats another topic) and can be directly guided by another plane (previously a second plane could guide it also, but only through the shooting plane datalink). Fianlly i would like to add that it is always preferable to lauch a missile in LOBL mode, but nevermind.
(iii) you do make the difference between range and NEZ dont you? aim-260 can enter service, it will still be a rocket propellant missile as opposed to METEOR. Completely different worlds. (Both have advantages, but in terms of NEZ, a throttable power such as meteor definitely have an advantage)
(iv) comparing apples and oranges if you compare different types of T/R modules and consider them as similar. Do you know the instant max radiated power, the gain, cooling needed etc.?). Even more important is the back-end of the radar, processing power, power magement, algotithms, modes etc.
(v) who do you trust for the number of modules? Armchair based experts who counted cooling elements (not modules btw, but they dont make the difference) on a dummy antenna or the radar maker? I tned to trust the maker and Thales says around 1000 elements.
About modes, older french planes such as Mirage 2000 D and their mechanical antenna do have GMTI/GMTT modes. It was not a prerequisite for Rafale as the ADAE did not consider it as a "must have". We know F4 standard (presently being inducted) have new modes. Ever wondered how a Rafale could destroy a moving pick up using a GPS guided bomb? It doese and it did for a long time, it is well documented. EW offensive capability of RBE2 AESA mode is ont its path for F5 standard (which will include tile modules antennae, side antenna, GaN modules etc. and a brand new spectra suite).
My point is just that saying from internet based specs that a plane is better than another is pointless and kiddish.
First a plane must fit in a doctrine, be it political, startegical or tactical. Countries will buy the plane that fit the best their doctrine. That includes geopolitics, military and diplomatic effects.
 
As usual, you are showing an obvious lack of knowledge about Rafale program. We're presently talking about F4 and Rafale ISE standards here.
(i) again asserting unsubstantiated claims. nanananana WON'T nananana SINCE nanana LIKELY nanana. No evidence, no clue, just hot air.
(ii) wow LOAL capability. I'm impressed. Mica also have BVR capability, longest shot know being 67 Kms by Taiwanese air force on a target drone. And MICA NG with dual impulse engine is entering forces next year. MICA is also a HOBS missile with a LOAL mode, and mica ng will use an AESA seeker and a brand new IR matrix seeker (which btw has advantages and default compared to good old diodes array, but thats another topic) and can be directly guided by another plane (previously a second plane could guide it also, but only through the shooting plane datalink). Fianlly i would like to add that it is always preferable to lauch a missile in LOBL mode, but nevermind.
(iii) you do make the difference between range and NEZ dont you? aim-260 can enter service, it will still be a rocket propellant missile as opposed to METEOR. Completely different worlds. (Both have advantages, but in terms of NEZ, a throttable power such as meteor definitely have an advantage)
(iv) comparing apples and oranges if you compare different types of T/R modules and consider them as similar. Do you know the instant max radiated power, the gain, cooling needed etc.?). Even more important is the back-end of the radar, processing power, power magement, algotithms, modes etc.
(v) who do you trust for the number of modules? Armchair based experts who counted cooling elements (not modules btw, but they dont make the difference) on a dummy antenna or the radar maker? I tned to trust the maker and Thales says around 1000 elements.
About modes, older french planes such as Mirage 2000 D and their mechanical antenna do have GMTI/GMTT modes. It was not a prerequisite for Rafale as the ADAE did not consider it as a "must have". We know F4 standard (presently being inducted) have new modes. Ever wondered how a Rafale could destroy a mobing pick up using a GPS guided bomb? It doese and it did for a long time, it is well documented. EW offensive capability of RBE2 AESA mode is ont its path for F5 standard (which will include tile modules antennae, side antenna, GaN modules etc. and a brand new spectra suite).
My point is just that saying from internet based specs that a plane is better than another is pointless and kiddish.
First a plane must fit in a doctrine, be it political, startegical or tactical. Countries will buy the plane that fit the best their doctrine. That includes geopolitics, military and diplomatic effects.
I'm talking about fighters are in service now the F4 won't enter service until mid 2020s, bruh. As for F-18 I was talking about the latest block 2 blockIII just entered service and is more capable.

Thales makes it clear.

The AESA RBE2 is the very high performance radar designed for the omnirole Rafale fighter. It has been designed in close collaboration with Dassault Aviation and DGA -French defense procurement agency- to meet expectations of Air Forces by combining advanced fire control radar detection and target tracking needs thanks to innovative technologies.

In a radar, an antenna is said to be «active» when it has a single subassembly for amplification of radiated power and pre-amplification of received power. This is achieved by the antenna front end, which comprises an array of several hundreds transmit/receive modules (T/R modules). By controlling each T/R module individually, the active antenna can steer the radar beam at speeds of an electronic chip. This is called «electronic scanning in space» and effectively allows the radar to overcome the mechanical constraints of steering a single antenna. It also allows the radar to track multiple targets simultaneously in all directions. The active antenna thus replaces the conventional antenna and its mechanical steering system, along with the radar transmitter and the first stage of signal reception.

"SEVERAL HUNDREDS" it says.
Shall we count?
some 840 TR (1).jpg

You calling Thales a liar?
 
Amateur article. First of F-18E's uses its APG-79 for offensive EW and AN/ALQ-214(V)4/5.
Rafale is based on distributed sensor system ie called SPECTRA, with dedicated sensors/emitters for 360 degrees EW coverage unlike Rudimentary EW capability in Nose mounted radar of F18, which can provide only frontal coverage and is useless in my opinion as a standalone EW system.
The french plane only relies on spectra for EW since its AESA is not capable for offensive EW.
As explained above, it doesn’t need to as SPECTRA is specially designed for that role freeing the main radar to search and track the targets. Thats also why it doesn’t need to be so big compared to say F18.
Also french plane AESA doesn't have GMIT/GMTT capability which all US AESA fighters are capable of.
It’s just a good to have feature and not something essential feature. A moving map is better no doubt and I believe Rafale too will get GMTT and GMTI feature with simple software update in near future.
French plane AESA's have 800+ t/r modules compared to APG-79s 1100.
Because Rafale has distributed TR modules all over the body for EW role.
Also as per the article the Apg radar of F18 is too buggy to be relied upon and therefore it has to depend on other assets like E2D for volume search and track, Forget about doing any other gimmickry.
Both planes going at each other won't be able to take advantage of their missiles maximum BVR capabilities since they'll likely be EW each other which will bring them a lot closer and that is where the APG-79 comes in being able to burn through the jamming sooner and being able to get the shot first.
True that wedge jamming will make things difficult for both aircrafts to get a lock. but SPECTRA will provide better EW/jamming coverage unlike F18 Nose mounted Radar.

I don’t think Apg-79 will be able to burn through and get a lock on Rafale considering that it’s LO aircraft that incorporates various elements to decrease the radar signature.
Also F-18E's use the Aim-9xII which has LOAL capability it also has BVR capability. The 9x is a HOBS missile the 9xII takes it to another level.
In WVR Dogfight, having HOBS capability alone is of no use if your jet can’t point nose in the direction of the enemy or can’t keep up with the turn rate of the Rafale which also have HOBS along with HMD and can turn much tighter, has better energy management and excellent Nose authority to point its Nose radar towards slow moving (pig) F18 and shoot.
Aim-120D is also a HOBS missile.
So is the Meteor and even MICA (EM and ER) . MICA is much more suitable for Close BVR engagements due to its better NEZ.
At best the french plane is just a point below the F-18E in air to air and in a few months when the aim-260 enters service whatever advantage the meteor had in range will be gone.
AIM-260 is more suitable for fighters like F15, F22and F35 which are air superiority fighter. I’m not sure how much advantage it will give to F18 over the already existing AIM-120 D.

PS: For every shortcoming the F18 has, there is an excellent poded solution already available. All it has to do is to carry different combinations of external pods, based on mission profile and threat perception.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lolwa
Rafale is based on distributed sensor system ie called SPECTRA, with dedicated sensors/emitters for 360 degrees EW coverage unlike Rudimentary EW capability in Nose mounted radar of F18, which can provide only frontal coverage and is useless in my opinion as a standalone EW system.

That is what the an/alq-214a(v)4 is for it works in fusion with the APG-79. Remember we're talking about an air to air scenario and jamming works better when the beaming is focused on the target "sector" which Thales themselves even says. Spectra doesn't have the power for a 360 degree jamming.
-RF jamming is transmitted through active phased antennas. Employment of this advanced technology allows the jamming signal to be concentrated in the sector where it is needed, not only increasing its effectiveness, but also reducing the probability of intercept by the adversary’s own sensors.
SPECTRA, state-of-the-art Rafale multi-spectral integrated defensive aids suite | Thales Group

Spectra is nothing special any US 4th gen fighter with a AN/ALQ-131(V) EW pod will be more capable in the EW realm than the french plane.

The ALQ-131(V) provides next-generation capabilities and performance

  • Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM)
  • High sensitivity digital receiver
  • Modern high-speed processors
  • High fidelity digital technique generation
  • Improved reliability by reducing total number of parts by a factor of three. Improved sustainability through modular design.
  • Reduction in life cycle cost
Northrop Grumman’s capabilities in electronic warfare (EW), full-spectrum cyber and electromagnetic maneuver warfare (EMW) span all domains — land, sea, air, space, cyberspace and the electromagnetic spectrum.

The company has a long and successful legacy in the art and science of electronic warfare, having developed and delivered offensive and defensive systems and aircraft for more than 60 years. We also have more than three decades of experience designing and operating cyber systems.
Northrop_ECMpods.jpg


Spectra is just a less powerful version of this jamming pod




As explained above, it doesn’t need to as SPECTRA is specially designed for that role freeing the main radar to search and track the targets. Thats also why it doesn’t need to be so big compared to say F18.
Spectra antenna is not going to jam an AESA antenna that produces more power. AESA's are difficult to jam and takes a more powerful antenna to do the job. APG-81(CATBird test plane) was able to jam the APG-77 likely at very long ranges where the beams aren't as strong.
-Airborne detection of stealth aircraft may already be an operational capability. In a series of tests at Edwards AFB, Calif., in 2009, Lockheed Martin’s CATbird avionics testbed—a Boeing 737 that carries the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s entire avionics system—engaged a mixed force of F-22s and Boeing F-15s and was able to locate and jam F-22 radars, according to researchers.



It’s just a good to have feature and not something essential feature. A moving map is better no doubt and I believe Rafale too will get GMTT and GMTI feature with simple software update in near future.

It shows RBE2 are not as capable.
Because Rafale has distributed TR modules all over the body for EW role.
Also as per the article the Apg radar of F18 is too buggy to be relied upon and therefore it has to depend on other assets like E2D for volume search and track, Forget about doing any other gimmickry.

Lol. Dude the APG-79 is almost 20 years old it debut on a blockII F-18E in 2005 current APG-79's are the (v) model. These APG-79s are more powerful and capable and have NIFC-CA capability which no other foreign fighter has.
True that wedge jamming will make things difficult for both aircrafts to get a lock. but SPECTRA will provide better EW/jamming coverage unlike F18 Nose mounted Radar.

I don’t think Apg-79 will be able to burn through and get a lock on Rafale considering that it’s LO aircraft that incorporates various elements to decrease the radar signature.

I'm actually wrong on this claim. Now that I've done more research on Spectra the F-18E WILL have the capability to detect and track the french plane at long range. Spectra doesn't produce the power to be able to successfully jam an APG-79(v).

The french plane is not an LO fighter when carrying pylons, missiles, drop tanks, has non-canted vertical stabilizer and with that fuel probe sticking out just like I don't consider the F-18E an LO fighter with pylons, missiles and drop tanks even if Boeing claims the F-18E being an LO fighter.

Now in clean configuration the F-18E is LO fighter but that's not how it goes to war.
In WVR Dogfight, having HOBS capability alone is of no use if your jet can’t point nose in the direction of the enemy or can’t keep up with the turn rate of the Rafale which also have HOBS along with HMD and can turn much tighter, has better energy management and excellent Nose authority to point its Nose radar towards slow moving (pig) F18 and shoot.

I don't think you understand how HOBS works.
This is from 2000.

You get it now?

So is the Meteor and even MICA (EM and ER) . MICA is much more suitable for Close BVR engagements due to its better NEZ.

Close BVR engagements improves all BVR missiles NEZ. Duh!
AIM-260 is more suitable for fighters like F15, F22and F35 which are air superiority fighter. I’m not sure how much advantage it will give to F18 over the already existing AIM-120 D.

Lol. Seriously? Aim-260 is a much longer range missile than Aim-120D and the Aim-120D has a 130-150 mile range. F-18E is a very capable fighter and fleet defender. Both F-18E and your french plane have the same top speed.
PS: For every shortcoming the F18 has, there is an excellent poded solution already available. All it has to do is to carry different combinations of external pods, based on mission profile and threat perception.

Nope.
 
Rafale is much more nimble and has better STR and ITR and far better nose authority than aerodynamic disaster called F18.
MICA with HOBS and along with better HMD , Rafale has high chances to kill F18 in WVR.

In BVR F18 has AIM 120 D which is quite comparable to Meteor and together with IRST, Powerful jammers, DIRCM and Infrared jammers can shoot down Rafale. Or at least have higher chance of killing it than in WVR fight.

The only advantage the SH has over the Rafale is the brand new engine on the SH. While improving performance, although not to the same level as the Rafale, it has significantly superior service life and far more electrical power. Everything else is in Rafale's favour.

Meteor is obsolete once AIM-260 hits the market it's just that simple lol.

A solid rocket can't defeat the kinematics of a ramjet in an AAM, basic physics. Electronics should be ahead though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AbRaj
F5 standard (which will include tile modules antennae, side antenna, GaN modules etc. and a brand new spectra suite).

Well, looks like my fears have come true, about conformal arrays.

And no GaN for the RBE2 on F4? That would make it even worse than my original fears.
 
Quite relevant interview of a Highly decorated Lead Test Pilot of USN regarding design choices between Stealth (F35) vs Survivability( F18 here but equally true for Rafale too)

The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: A Test Pilot Dispels The Myths

By CDR Rob Niewoehner


There has been a great deal of interest recently in the press regarding the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet program, its progress through the flight test phase, and the requirements for the airplane in preparation for operational test. Unfortunately, there is a great deal of misinformation and innuendo from various sources that proclaim to be experts on tactical aircraft — and particularly on this airplane. In such an environment, it is important that we review the facts and dispel the myths regarding not only the requirements for the airplane but also its current performance in flight test.

Background/Requirement

In early 1991 with the cancellation of the A-12, an idea was born out of the Navy’s Hornet 2000 study to develop an affordable, follow-on strike fighter that would capitalize on all of the strengths of the most successful, multi-mission tactical aircraft the Navy had ever developed – the F/A-18C. The F/A-18E/F would improve on the F/A-18C’s capabilities, continuing a series of preplanned product improvements (P3I) into a new airframe that would provide the growth required for the next century. The Navy’s F/A-18C was approaching its limits for further growth, particularly in its carrier suitability weight limit.

As a result, the follow-on platform needed to meet several key requirements that would provide improvements over the F/A-18C. As stated in the F/A-18E/F Operational Requirements Document (ORD), "The CINC’s highest priority for the F/A-18 upgrade and the F/A-18 Operational Advisory Group’s number one hardware priority is increased internal fuel; other high priority F/A-18 upgrade requirements include improved carrier suitability and the postulated threat mandate improvements in three key areas: increased mission radius/payload, increased carrier recovery payload, and improved survivability/vulnerability."

It is these enhancements, with growth for future upgrades, that became the pillars on which the F/A-18E/F was built. All of the requirements of this airplane were to be built inside a "box of affordability," to ensure that the Navy could afford this platform in sufficient numbers to fill its carrier air wings of the 21st century.

Myth vs. Fact

As the airplane has finished its design phase and entered flight test, conversations with fleet aviators have revealed a number of prevalent F/A-18E/F myths. While these myths and inaccuracies come from various sources, the answers and the facts flow directly from the previously stated requirements.

Myth #1 – "The E/F is not a stealthy airplane." Fact – "The E/F is an extremely survivable airplane." Stealth is one approach to survivability — a very expensive approach, whose stand-alone effectiveness is limited to a few mission scenarios. A flexible airplane requires a flexible approach to survivability, one that will deliver significant survivability improvements across the full span of envisioned missions.

By balancing the survivability of the E/F (with a combination of reduction in its vulnerable area; signature reduction; employment of defensive systems; and integration of stand-off munitions such as JDAM, JSOW, and SLAM-ER), the airplane capitalizes on all the survivability technologies of the past decade.

For example, a glance at the airplane’s physical geometry and exterior features reveals the influence of dedicated radar cross section (RCS) signature control. Where it made good cost-vs.-capability sense, the signature was tailored. For those aspects where additional signature control would have been cost prohibitive, the Navy directed survivability resources elsewhere to get the best return for each survivability dollar.

Next, the real measure of survivability is not the likelihood of a single asset’s coming back from any one mission. The real measure of survivability is the number of pilots and airplanes left on the flight deck after a campaign. Similarly, lethality is the number of targets destroyed per aircraft lost. More fuel and more weapon stations will enable the E/F to make fewer sorties into the target area and employ more tactically desirable routes. Fewer sorties and better routing will result in less threat exposure and enhanced survivability.

How do more stations contribute to improved survivability? If a strike planner today wanted to put two laser-guided bombs and two High Speed Anti-Radiation Missiles (HARMs) into the battle space, it would require a flight of two C/D aircraft, each most likely configured with two external fuel tanks. The strike planner who could employ the F/A-18E/F would be able to get that same load into the target area with one airplane (configured with a single 480-gallon fuel tank). As a bonus, the E/F would be able to carry two AMRAAM on the additional out board stations. It adds up: more weapons, fewer sorties, increased survivability, and greater lethality.

Myth #2 – "Bigger means faster." Fact – "Bigger means more ordnance, flying farther, staying airborne longer." The F/A-18E/F moldline changes that provide for improved range, payload, and carrier suitability also, however, contribute to a steeper drag rise at transonic speeds, resulting in slightly slower level accelerations to supersonic speeds. A clean (no external stores) Lot XIX C/D will nose out a clean E/F in a drag race from 0.85 to 1.2 at 35,000 ft. But F/A-18E/F subsonic performance in both MIL and MAX power is significantly superior to that of a C/D, and manifests itself in shorter takeoff distances, better climb rates, and faster accelerations. In unloaded, tactically representative accelerations, the two aircraft are indistinguishable. "Apples-to-apples" comparison of the two aircraft must be done cautiously, however. One must remember that the E/F moves the C/D’s ever-present external wing tank fuel into the fuselage and wings. Deploying with a single centerline tank (its projected typical carrier configuration), the E/F’s acceleration performance will be a substantial improvement over a cruise-configured (two fuel tanks on wing stations) C/D everywhere in the flight envelope.

Myth #3 – "Then, bigger means less maneuverable." Fact – "In the subsonic regime, the E/F performs as good as or better than a C/D in almost every respect." The challenge posed to the contractor was not to compromise the Hornet’s superb capabilities as a dogfighter. "As good as, or better than..." was the standard to meet. The result is that the turning performance charts overlay one another. At high angles of attack, the E/F’s agility truly shines, with superior roll performance and much more carefree handling.

The heritage Hornet was already the stand-out, high angle-of-attack (alpha) machine in the U.S. inventory. The E/F is "hands-down" superior in that environment. As of the end of July, the test program had completed the high-alpha and spin programs on the E-models for all symmetric loads, and on the F-model for fighter and centerline loadings. Lateral asymmetries and F-model stores testing are in progress.

There will be no angle-of-attack restrictions for the symmetrically loaded E or F models. Spin characteristics are benign, with a simplified recovery compared with that of the C/D, and no sustained falling-leaf departure exists in any stores loading tested.

My last flight in the E/F was in aircraft E4, loaded with three 480-gallon tanks and 4 Mk 83 bombs, and with the center of gravity ballasted to the aft limit of 31.8 percent. In that configuration, the airplane maneuvered without restriction from -30 to +50 degrees AOA, performed zero airspeed tailslides and spins to 120 degrees per second of yaw rate, and unsuccessfully attempted to generate a stable falling-leaf departure. We’ve engineered out all the known departure modes for rolls up to 360 degrees.

The air combat maneuvering (ACM) flights have revealed that the airplane may still be maneuvered at speeds as low as 80 KCAS. This airplane will be quite comfortable in any type of a "phone booth" close-in dogfight.

Agility, however, should really be considered in terms of the lethality of the complete weapons system. While thrust vectoring is maturing at a pace that might have allowed incorporation into the E/F, the weight and complexity penalties were prohibitive. Instead, adding the Helmet-Mounted Cueing System (HMCS) and a highly maneuverable off-boresight missile (AIM-9X) generates E/F total-system lethality that exceeds that available from a much more agile airplane with current missiles. HMCS and AIM-9X will enter the Fleet in 2001 and 2002, respectively.

Myth #4 – "Ninety percent avionics commonality with the C/D means that the E/F is recycling 1970s technology." Fact – "Today’s F/A-18 C/D comes off the production line with a state-of-the-art cockpit and weapon system, thanks to a significant investment in growth since the F/A-18A’s introduction." This actually represents a compelling case for E/F. The F/A-18A/B/C/D’s phenomenal growth in systems and missions are at the brink of physically exhausting the space of a 1970s airframe, while the weapons system inside is unquestionably 1990s. Modest improvements from Lot XX C/D to E/F are all that is initially required to make the Super Hornet state-of-the-art. What is needed is a 1990s airframe that can handle the growth for the avionics and weapons systems advances of the next 5 to 20 years. The F/A-18E/F is that airframe.

Where technological jumps in E/F avionics were possible, they were made. The touchscreen Up-Front Control Display (UPCD) is the most prominent feature of the Super Hornet cockpit. While other services were tentative about embracing touchscreen for tactical aircraft applications, we’ve seen this display move successfully to maturity. The prime piece of real estate dedicated to administrative tasks in the heritage Hornet (the UFC, or Up-Front Control), is now a full participant in the warfighting display suite.

Flight Test Highlights

How’s the airplane flying? Seven aircraft, in the third year of a flight test program at the Naval Air Weapons Centers at Patuxent River and China Lake, have flown more than 3,000 flight hours. Five Navy pilots share envelope expansion responsibilities with five Boeing/Northrop test pilots. Highlights of the testing to date have included Initial Sea Trials (January 1997, aboard USS Stennis), Operational Test Phase IIA (November 1997), and more than a million pounds of weapons expended off the aircraft.

The weapons separation effort is key to the entire program. It represents the true product to be delivered to OPTEVFOR/VX-9 for the Operational Evaluation (OPEVAL) in the summer of 1999 – an airplane ready to go to war with several dozen cleared weapons loads.

This represents a significant challenge to the test team. Hanging heavy, aerodynamically significant stores on a flexible structure means that each of the desired configurations is virtually a different airplane to be cleared for its flying qualities, performance, flutter, loads, and weapons separation. Due to the scope of the weapons program, it is not uncommon for the weapons-separation aircraft to be dropping bombs and firing missiles in parts of the envelope cleared only days prior by the airplanes devoted to airworthiness testing.

Results of testing to date have generally been very encouraging. Performance is coming in right on predictions. Technical challenges surface daily. They are an expected part of a "test, analyze, fix" process, the highly publicized "wing drop" having been only one of scores Boeing and the Navy have faced together. Each of the seven aircraft are being modified continually to accommodate what has been learned in the previous weeks and months. The effort is strongly focused around preparedness for the airplane’s final exam (OPEVAL).

Flying Qualities

But what is it like to fly? "It’s a Hornet, only better," were my comments after my first flight. When one accounts for the 90 percent commonality with the C/D avionics suite, nearly identical cockpit switch positions, and preflight procedures copied directly from the C/D NATOPS manual, a Hornet pilot’s first impression is to feel right at home. It’s upon second glance that the changes become more significant. An E-model’s start-up internal fuel state is 14.5 (14,500 pounds of fuel), vice the C’s 10.7 (10,700 pounds). The Up-Front Control has been replaced by the versatile touchscreen Up-Front Control Display. Up and away flight handling is very similar to the C/D’s by design, though less susceptible to the anomalies the C/D exhibits at some conditions. In the landing pattern, even the C/D’s wonderful handling characteristics have been improved upon, with the increased weights providing better rejection of low-altitude gusts and much more stable ground handling. The airplane doesn’t even appear to notice load asymmetries to 30,000 ft-lbs. Approach angle-of-attack remains the same, but the larger wing provides for substantially lower approach speeds. In summary, getting comfortable flying the airplane takes no time at all, but the changes are so positive that a pilot may not want to go back even to the C/D.

Flash vs. Value

"What does the F/A-18E/F have for me?" Appreciating the F/A-18E/F also includes understanding the benefits to all of Naval aviation’s stakeholders. The E/F does not include every flashy type of technology ever mentioned in Aviation Week, but rather those that deliver significant warfighting value. The F/A-18E/F does not universally out-perform all of the airplanes it is replacing. Any aircraft with the F/A-18’s multi-mission capability will necessarily compromise some attributes to maximize the best overall capability. While every pilot longs for "more knots and more turn rate," each needs to realize the value of the enhancements the F/A-18E/F brings to the carrier’s arsenal and to every interested warfighter in the joint arena.

The F/A-18E/F does deliver a superior strike fighter aircraft that will provide each stakeholder with substantially enhanced capabilities. We’re not just buying an airplane for the lieutenants to win the fighter or bombing derby—although the E/F will do that. We are buying a proven combat system to put into the hands of a theater CinC to execute our national military strategy. Logisticians, maintainers, and air staffs—as well as pilots—are stakeholders in the capability of that system.

With that said, the F/A-18E/F does not need to apologize for any of the design trades that were made, for every pilot and NFO coming to the airplane will find attributes that more than make up for what he or she is leaving behind. The transitioning F-14 pilot will clearly give up some high-speed dash capability, but in return will gain phenomenal systems reliability, survivability, agility and mission systems designed for strike warfare lethality. F/A-18 pilots will find the extra fuel they always wanted, while also gaining payload flexibility, carrier bringback, survivability, improved flying qualities, and welcome crew station improvements. The transitioning F-14/A-6 NFO who becomes the F/A-18F Weapon Systems Operator (WSO) will appreciate the state-of-the-art aft cockpit as well as the offensive and defensive weapon systems technology.

Those involved in support and maintenance are justifiably excited about this airplane. Squadron and Air Wing maintenance officers will get another step improvement in reliability and reduced mechanical complexity. (E/F is 25 percent bigger than C/D but has 42 percent fewer parts). The logisticians will see a resultant reduction in parts support to remote theaters. Air Bosses and Air Operations Officers visiting the Test Team have been excited about an airplane that will provide dramatic improvements in flexibility around the ship and the return of a tactical airborne tanker in the air wing with E/F’s Aerial Refueling Store (ARS) capability. Finally, the Strike Operations, Carrier Group staff, and Joint Air Staffs will be thrilled with the force-multiplying effect of a longer range, more lethal strike fighter on the flight schedule.

Low-Risk Combat Capability

The F/A-18E/F is the center of the Navy acquisition strategy, whose objective is to procure the best possible value in a power projection aircraft, thus "maximizing bang for the buck." Maximizing carrier combat capability within the available fiscal resources meant pursuing a larger airplane while leveraging from the tremendous warfighting legacy of the F/A-18 C/D. Program opponents, both inside and outside the Navy, cite the F/A-18E/F’s technology as a marginal improvement over the Lot XX C/D coming off the ramp in St. Louis today. True, there are few tremendous technology leaps in this aircraft. What such a pundit does not appreciate is how much more combat capability the F/A-18E/Fs state-of-the-art improvements will deliver, when compared to the improvements that cannot be realized by modifying the C/D. The F/A-18E/F’s improvement in combat capability is substantial, making the technical low-risk approach of E/F a procurement bargain.

A story from Initial Sea Trials (IST) illustrates the success of this approach to technical risk. My partner, Mr. Fred Madenwald, Boeing’s Chief Pilot, returned from the airplane’s first flight in St. Louis in November 1995 and proudly proclaimed that it was "ready to go to sea." With 14 months of flight testing to go before the aircraft’s first arrested landing aboard ship, the test team treated his remark with friendly derision as brash and premature. After IST, everyone was compelled to apologize. He was right! The airplane had been ready for sea: Not a single significant flight control change affecting IST had been required, and no significant problems were discovered while at sea. This was a remarkable achievement for the Hornet Industry Team, as multiple changes had been required to get the original F/A-18A through its IST. More importantly to the Navy, it was a validation of the basic strategy of getting the most warfighting value by keeping technical risk low and leveraging the proven capabilities of the heritage Hornet into a larger airplane that could deliver the goods.

Range... Payload... Growth... Bringback... Survivability... We’re getting what we asked for. _____________​


CDR Robert Niewoehner, USN, Ph.D., served as the Navy’s lead test pilot on the Super Hornet program from prior to first flight until July of this year. During that time he flew 296 E/F missions and more than 450 flight hours. His principal responsibilities were high- and low-speed envelope expansion, including flutter and spin/departure testing. He is currently assigned to the U.S. Naval Academy as part of the first cadre of Permanent Military Professors.

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: randomradio
  • Haha
Reactions: Innominate