Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

Optimist said:
It was made, the picture was of the air chief sitting at a desk in a blue shirt without a tie. An Indian paper, posted on key pub forum. I remember it well. I tried to google it on the forum, no luck.

In your wildest dreams. You can't count the 36 Rafale as the 126 plane comp. India basically canceled it and gave France a token gesture.

This article is close enough to the reasons the US planes weren't chosen.

America’s Indian Rebuff

India’s decision not to buy the F/A-18 or F-16 is a big blow to the United States. Will it hurt broader ties?
thediplomat.com
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Why not just hear it from them instead of relying on speculations?

www.financialexpress.com

Failed Lockheed Martin F 16 carries no improvement potential for India, say IAF veterans

Despite the ovedrive by the US-based aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, no agreement for the F-16 Block 70/72 production was inked during the recently concluded visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the US.
www.financialexpress.com www.financialexpress.com
It has more to do with longer range and endurance, higher weapons capability, etc,” explained a former senior IAF officer. According to Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd), former deputy chief Integrated Defence Staff, “F-16’s airframe is a third generation design that has outlived its utility. It cannot measure up to even 4th generation aircraft any more, despite all the avionics upgrades. Its components, aggregates, fuel efficiency, life cycle costs, will all be in the 3rd generation.”
 
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AbRaj said:
UAE officials are shrewd businessmen unlike other Arab States and will extract bang for every buck they will spent.

They will get upgraded F35 in due time and with greater autonomy and price package than US is willing to give them right now. It’s how they got Best versions of both F16 and Mirages. They probably also want to integrate their own weapons, they have been developing locally.
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Doubt it. They are not getting f-35's anytime soon. It's pretty clear f-35 is more of a U.S rental bot plane than an actual fighter. Buying the plane means you are accepting American vassalage.
Optimist said:
Just don't mention the canceled submarine. Or there will be more tears. They are a pitiful bunch.

The block III super hornet, would slap a Rafale all day long.
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Doubtful. Super-hornet is a fat pig will lose in wvr and most likely also in bvr. Bigger radar doesn't change the situation much when Rafale carries the superior missile.
 
WHOHE said:
Oh it definitely wasn't capabilities just look at what the IAF flies and compare its capabilities to the capabilities of the F-18 and F-16 two highly combat proven fighters. I actually think at the time IAF had a moment of clarity and looked at the horror of adding another fighter from another nation which would require a whole new doctrine of training for IAF. They would need smarter pilots to handle the advanced tech F-18 and F-16 carry. Just look how long it took the Poles to get Vipers and learn to fly their block 50+ Vipers properly. It really is a crash course going from Russian and dated Mirages to latest F-16 and F-18.
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And then they accuse me of not living in the real world! :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
And then they accuse me of not living in the real world! :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
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Don't take him too seriously. He's just a juvenile who draws lines with baby milk powder on the table in his mom's kitchen , gets high on it & posts here. Samples include stuxnet like e virus, unidentified black triangles 20 kms above earth flying mid day , etc.
 
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Lolwa said:
Doubtful. Super-hornet is a fat pig will lose in wvr and most likely also in bvr. Bigger radar doesn't change the situation much when Rafale carries the superior missile.
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F-18s APG-79 has offensive EW capability unlike french planes AESA. F-18s also carry the advanced an/alq-214a(v)4 EW system which means french plane wont be able to use its meteors full range. Btw Aim-120D has a 130-150 mile range and next year Aim-260 enters service pretty much owning the meteor.
F-18c and F-18E have no problem gunning Flankers or French planes while carrying two drop tanks
f18 vs rafale.jpg

f18 vs rafale 2.jpg


;)
 
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Yes, he wants to compare the two planes when we know:
  1. We need less than 30 seconds in exercises with the US navy to shoot down an F-18 SH
  2. The SH can shoot 7.5g and the Rafale 11.5g
  3. The Rafale will see the SH first because of its reduced SER and SPECTRA capabilities
  4. The Rafale's air-to-air missiles, whether Meteor, MICA NG or MICA, are far superior to those of the SH
  5. The Rafale's optronic capabilities for identification are unrivalled
 
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Optimist said:
If we aren't going to use the latest variant. The USMC and Canadian hornet, with the update and GaN AESA they are getting. Would slap the Rafale. There is no need to use a super hornet.
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Valid point, APG-79(V)4s are being delivered right now, only a matter of time before GaN makes it to the F-35 too.
 
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BMD said:
Valid point, APG-79(V)4s are being delivered right now, only a matter of time before GaN makes it to the F-35 too.
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Yet with all those wonderful developments on the Hornets on the anvil we had a Canadian member here expressing his opinion on how the JSF would be a better replacement for the existing fleet of Hornets in the RCAF rather than augmenting it with more Hornets simply because the production line is expected to shut down before the decade is out.

For you & your reasoning Paddy, X'Mas isn't on 25/12 , it's 365 days a year, 24x7 to make merry & post the after effects here.
 
_Anonymous_ said:
Yet with all those wonderful developments on the Hornets on the anvil we had a Canadian member here expressing his opinion on how the JSF would be a better replacement for the existing fleet of Hornets in the RCAF rather than augmenting it with more Hornets simply because the production line is expected to shut down before the decade is out.

For you & your reasoning Paddy, X'Mas isn't on 25/12 , it's 365 days a year, 24x7 to make merry & post the after effects here.
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Of course the F-35 is better than the super hornet. Its just that the super hornet is better than the Rafale. Even the legacy hornet as is. Doesn't score that badly in comps as a base line to go from. The results are on line with that and the euro stuff. They didn't score much more.

To be honest playing with the fanboys is just for fun. In the real world Australia has moved on from 4.5 gen. The F-35, 72 for $16b all delivered 2023. We have allocated upto $11B for the loyal wingman from 2028. I don't know how many, but I guess a lot. The early test ones are $40m each. I guess they will be around $20m in production. Heck France may have their Rafale in F4 and looking at F4.2 by then. :)
 
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WHOHE said:
It's a logical guess. It didn't even make the next round in Finland so it is more than likely, in fact I'm willing to bet a whole paycheck that F-18E came in second in Swiss competition. Hopefully the Swiss disclose the results because it will prove me right.
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So it is just a (uneducated) guess. Only F-18 and F-35 were preselected for final wargame and ranking in Finland, due to three yes/no gateways that included industrial return, availability of weapons and spare parts, and future development path. I fyou knew a little bit of the HX process you would know that Rafale (and Eurofighter) did not pass those gateways (presumably the availability of weapons one) and were NOT ranked. End of the story.
 
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Optimist said:
Of course the F-35 is better than the super hornet. Its just that the super hornet is better than the Rafale. To be honest playing with the fanboys is just for fun. In the real world Australia has moved on from 4.5g. The F-35, 72 for $16b all delivered 2023. We have allocated upto $11B for the loyal wingman from 2028. I don't know how many, but I guess a lot. The early test ones are $40m each. I guess they will be around $20m in production.
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Frankly the importance of Australia in war fighting is immaterial. We've seen what they could do in Vietnam & prior to that in WW-2. In Afghanistan too, the then PM Howard withdrew the bulk of his troops within the first few years itself.

From China's perspective they're no more than a nuisance value . The only advantage they bring to the table is they add another member to label the grouping quad as opposed to a triangle & provide a good base for operations in the IOR, western Pacific region for the US or US + UK in tandem. They're the weakest link in the quad irrespective of what they're equipped with.
 
halloweene said:
So it is just a (uneducated) guess. Only F-18 and F-35 were preselected for final wargame and ranking in Finland, due to three yes/no gateways that included industrial return, availability of weapons and spare parts, and future development path. I fyou knew a little bit of the HX process you would know that Rafale (and Eurofighter) did not pass those gateways (presumably the availability of weapons one) and were NOT ranked. End of the story.
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Your plane came in third in Swissland bruh you need to deal with it.
Bon Plan said:
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Remember me how many of these so called potent SH18 were selled on export market ?
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That's because we're offering a better choice in F-35. If F-35 didn't exist it would be the F-18E beating your plane.
 
Optimist said:
To be honest playing with the fanboys is just for fun. In the real world Australia has moved on from 4.5 gen. The F-35, 72 for $16b all delivered 2023. We have allocated upto $11B for the loyal wingman from 2028. I don't know how many, but I guess a lot. The early test ones are $40m each. I guess they will be around $20m in production. Heck France may have their Rafale in F4 and looking at F4.2 by then. :)
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This reads as bad as french delusions of Rafale being better than the f-35. The Rafale would literally run circles around the Super-hornet and hornet. Those things are fat pigs that can't turn. Literally worse than private jet liners.
 
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Lolwa said:
This reads as bad as french delusions of Rafale being better than the f-35. The Rafale would literally run circles around the Super-hornet and hornet. Those things are fat pigs that can't turn. Literally worse than private jet liners.
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In dogfight, I doubt Super hornet will survive much longer. But in BVR fight it is possible to shoot down Rafale with super hornet equipped with latest EWand Self protection suit. And it does have quite a long list of these suits.
 
AbRaj said:
In dogfight, I doubt Super hornet will survive much longer. But in BVR fight it is possible to shoot down Rafale with super hornet equipped with latest EWand Self protection suit. And it does have quite a long list of these suits.
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How? Rafale has the superior bvr missile. Ironically it's the Super-hornet with the superior wvr missile with the aim-9x. Rafale only has the mica. And super hornet self protection suite isn't anything unique it's pretty standard 4.5 gen capability but I have doubts on how effective it will be against spectra if it's active cancellation capabilities are true as claimed.
And APG 79 is not exactly known to be a performer
"The APG-79 AESA radar demonstrated marginal improvements since the previous FOT&E period and provides improved performance relative to the legacy APG-73 radar"
 
Lolwa said:
How? Rafale has the superior bvr missile. Ironically it's the Super-hornet with the superior wvr missile with the aim-9x. Rafale only has the mica. And super hornet self protection suite isn't anything unique it's pretty standard 4.5 gen capability but I have doubts on how effective it will be against spectra if it's active cancellation capabilities are true as claimed.
And APG 79 is not exactly known to be a performer
"The APG-79 AESA radar demonstrated marginal improvements since the previous FOT&E period and provides improved performance relative to the legacy APG-73 radar"
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An EA-18G managed to shoot down a Raptor BVR once, that was pre-NGJ.

The latest AN/ALQ-214(V)4/5 is well above SPECTRA and no SPECTRA never was as good as claimed, or anywhere even close, it was all just blog-fudge.

The APG-79 is on its 4th version and just received GaN modules, plus it's 40% larger than the RBE-2 AESA, so even when the RBE2 upgrades to GaN it will still be inferior.
 
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