Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

This is what Russian propaganda says: I am in Europe and I have not noticed anything:
  • there has been no shortage of energy or food.
  • Inflation has risen a little: it is currently 5.6% in France, and it has never exceeded 7%.
  • But salaries have risen in the same proportions and the state has created aids for all those who were at risk of being put in difficulty.
  • The euro briefly fell below parity with the dollar, but it is already back to 1.08 and in the long term the crisis will probably have no effect on it.
  • Over the past year I have been to Germany and Spain and life seemed as normal as ever, and I think it is the same all over Europe.
  • It's been the best year for Dassault for a long time and some say 2023 will be even better. ;)
Well I checked with my friends from France, Germany and UK and all of them accepted that the inflation is pinching them hard. There are salary corrections, but it doesn’t absorb the impact. May be you are financially well off not to feel the heat 😉.
My French friends claim they are doing relatively well compared to Brits 😂 !!
Regarding US, I can confirm the inflation in grocery, restaurant prices and other household items is much higher that official numbers. The grocery and restaurant prices have gone up by 50-100 % in 2022!! The impact is so much that we were forced to change our life style!!
 
View: https://twitter.com/gwjphantom/status/1642981107544064000




 
Well I checked with my friends from France, Germany and UK and all of them accepted that the inflation is pinching them hard. There are salary corrections, but it doesn’t absorb the impact. May be you are financially well off not to feel the heat 😉.
My French friends claim they are doing relatively well compared to Brits 😂 !!
Regarding US, I can confirm the inflation in grocery, restaurant prices and other household items is much higher that official numbers. The grocery and restaurant prices have gone up by 50-100 % in 2022!! The impact is so much that we were forced to change our life style!!
So they can still afford to eat at restaurants? I bet they're struggling to pay their butler too. :ROFLMAO:
 
So they can still afford to eat at restaurants? I bet they're struggling to pay their butler too. :ROFLMAO:
Well, it would have been impolite to intrude into their personal spending details.

Anyway it was interesting to observe how the European rivalry plays out in response to a simple question 😉.
 
Well, it would have been impolite to intrude into their personal spending details.

Anyway it was interesting to observe how the European rivalry plays out in response to a simple question 😉.

Le francais would complain twice as much if it wasn't for the British being up shit creek. That makes them feel thrice as good about themselves if not better .

And since the British can't complain about their economic situation coz they'd become the laughing stock of the world especially le francais, they make believe & let everyone who's interested in knowing that they're in top shape.
 
Well, it would have been impolite to intrude into their personal spending details.

Anyway it was interesting to observe how the European rivalry plays out in response to a simple question 😉.
Russia has higher inflation with no pay rises, unpaid overtime in many defence-related jobs and some government employees aren't receiving pay, or are receiving it late. Here we complain about slightly less than inflation pay rises (UK) and retirement ages being raised (France).
 
Russia has higher inflation with no pay rises, unpaid overtime in many defence-related jobs and some government employees aren't receiving pay, or are receiving it late. Here we complain about slightly less than inflation pay rises (UK) and retirement ages being raised (France).

Russians are a hardy lot O"Flaherty, much like the Padraigs. They believe comfort is for women & the effeminate. They don't mind it one bit. Have you ever seen any Russki complain except for the Slava Ukraini propaganda you post here regularly ? Nada. It just doesn't happen just as you don't see the Padraigs complain much.
 
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I do not see what you claimed. LM even go out of their way to specify the F-22's supercruise. they don't mention the F-16 at all like you said. in keeping with something published in 2009 it seems to be fairly straightforward and written very broadly. LM won the JSF contest in 2001. Since super cruise is not a JSF requirement, and LM never says its a 5th generation requirement, you made that up.

Lockheed actually specify here that F-22 super cruises and not F-35, they actually make it very clear.

Extreme Fighter Performance

Subsonic, supersonic, high g's, quick acceleration even loaded with air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons, the F-22 and F-35 are true fighters while still incorporating their unmatched VLO stealth signatures. The F-22, with its unique features of high-altitude supercruise and thrust-vectoring, surpasses any existing or planned fighter.

"Any existing or planned fighter" would actually include the F-35 and they don't even try to hide that the F-35 does not do what F-22 can.

I have read back the last 15 pages or so in this thread and what it looks like to me is about the same around 3 vs 3 posters antagonizing one another. I read that theyre going to be making 150 F-35s per year and they just signed a contract for something like 400 more F-35s? "pwning" the F-35 over engine heat seems pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. F-35 has won Europe. Putin has accelerated it further.

Its all over but the crying as they say, but the good news is, the engine is underspecced! Who cares? well the people arguing on the internet care very deeply. Winning on the internet while losing in Europe really matters.

anyway. I read this link about 3 times and I never saw them say what you claimed, if I missed it by all means please show me. LM are smart enough to say "fighter agility" Which is very broad, and they specify the F-22 supercruises, not all "5th generation"

we are stuck with bitter posters arguing semantics over things they think LM said 14 years ago?

I remember, another time, that LM itself said that to be 5th gen a plane has to be : VLO, Supercruising, with sensor fusion, affordable and at least agile as a F16.
 
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I do not see what you claimed. LM even go out of their way to specify the F-22's supercruise. they don't mention the F-16 at all like you said. in keeping with something published in 2009 it seems to be fairly straightforward and written very broadly. LM won the JSF contest in 2001. Since super cruise is not a JSF requirement, and LM never says its a 5th generation requirement, you made that up.

Lockheed actually specify here that F-22 super cruises and not F-35, they actually make it very clear.

Extreme Fighter Performance

Subsonic, supersonic, high g's, quick acceleration even loaded with air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons, the F-22 and F-35 are true fighters while still incorporating their unmatched VLO stealth signatures. The F-22, with its unique features of high-altitude supercruise and thrust-vectoring, surpasses any existing or planned fighter.

"Any existing or planned fighter" would actually include the F-35 and they don't even try to hide that the F-35 does not do what F-22 can.

I have read back the last 15 pages or so in this thread and what it looks like to me is about the same around 3 vs 3 posters antagonizing one another. I read that theyre going to be making 150 F-35s per year and they just signed a contract for something like 400 more F-35s? "pwning" the F-35 over engine heat seems pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. F-35 has won Europe. Putin has accelerated it further.

Its all over but the crying as they say, but the good news is, the engine is underspecced! Who cares? well the people arguing on the internet care very deeply. Winning on the internet while losing in Europe really matters.

anyway. I read this link about 3 times and I never saw them say what you claimed, if I missed it by all means please show me. LM are smart enough to say "fighter agility" Which is very broad, and they specify the F-22 supercruises, not all "5th generation"

we are stuck with bitter posters arguing semantics over things they think LM said 14 years ago?

The problem is that the notion of "generation" is an L.M. marketing invention that was born when the F-22 was the manufacturer's flagship aircraft. The definition of the 5th generation was therefore based on the characteristics of the F-22 and obviously included the supercruise.
But then L.M. wanted the F-35 to be 5th generation too and to do so he changed the necessary characteristics and of course he removed all the links to the old definition. This means that to find a definition that indicates supercruise as a necessary feature you have to look for very old documents elsewhere than at L.M.

I found one quite convincing, from 2009, in Air Force Magazine and it states that the definition he gives is generally accepted by all specialists

The definition of fighter generations has long been subject to debate. However, most agree that the generations break down along these broad lines:
  • Generation 1: Jet propulsion (F-80, German Me 262).
  • Generation 2: Swept wings; range-only radar; infrared missiles (F-86, MiG-15).
  • Generation 3: Supersonic speed; pulse radar; able to shoot at targets beyond visual range (“Century Series” fighters such as F-105; F-4; MiG-17; MiG-21).
  • Generation 4: Pulse-doppler radar; high maneuverability; look-down, shootdown missiles (F-15, F-16, Mirage 2000, MiG-29). Generation 4+: High agility; sensor fusion; reduced signatures (Eurofighter Typhoon, Su-30, advanced versions of F-16 and F/A-18, Rafale).
  • Generation 4++: Active electronically scanned arrays; continued reduced signatures or some “active” (waveform canceling) stealth; some supercruise (Su-35, F-15SE).
  • Generation 5: All-aspect stealth with internal weapons, extreme agility, full-sensor fusion, integrated avionics, some or full supercruise (F-22, F-35).
  • Potential Generation 6: extreme stealth; efficient in all flight regimes (subsonic to multi-Mach); possible “morphing” capability; smart skins; highly networked; extremely sensitive sensors; optionally manned; directed energy weapons.

It is on the third page of the document which is marked p 40
 
The problem is that the notion of "generation" is an L.M. marketing invention that was born when the F-22 was the manufacturer's flagship aircraft. The definition of the 5th generation was therefore based on the characteristics of the F-22 and obviously included the supercruise.
But then L.M. wanted the F-35 to be 5th generation too and to do so he changed the necessary characteristics and of course he removed all the links to the old definition. This means that to find a definition that indicates supercruise as a necessary feature you have to look for very old documents elsewhere than at L.M.

I found one quite convincing, from 2009, in Air Force Magazine and it states that the definition he gives is generally accepted by all specialists



It is on the third page of the document which is marked p 40

Decisions in Congress and the Defense Department regarding these aircraft programs may have important long-term implications. The F/A-18E/F is in full-rate production. The V-22, and the F-22 are now in transition from research-development (R&D) to procurement and could remain in production for decades. The next-generation combat aircraft that are expected to result from joint-service efforts now getting underway through the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program might be in production through the 2020s



(Originally published in the year 2000. updated 2006)

******

The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program is expected to develop and build a family of new-generation tactical aircraft for the Air Force, the Marine Corps, the Navy, and Britain’s Royal Navy. As now projected, the JSF is the Defense Department’s largest acquisition program in terms of cost and number of aircraft to be produced



The JSF program emerged in late 1995 from the Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) program, which began in late 1993 as a result of the Administration’s Bottom-Up Review (BUR) of U.S. defense policy and programs. Having affirmed plans to abandon development of both the A-12/AFX aircraft that was to replace the Navy’s A-6 attack planes and the multi-role fighter (MRF) that the Air Force had considered to replace its F-16s, the BUR envisaged the JAST program as a replacement for both these programs. In 1994, the JAST program was criticized bysome observersfor being a technology-development program rather than a focused effort to develop and procure new aircraft. In 1995, in response to congressional direction, a program led by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) to develop an advanced short takeoff and vertical landing (ASTOVL) aircraft was incorporated into the JAST program, which opened the way for Marine Corps and British Navy participation.6 The name of the program was then changed to JSF to focus on joint development and production of a next-generation fighter/attack plane.




The CRS reports above show that the JSF program (X-32 or X-35) were going to be "next-generation" already as had been written into the nomenclature from the start.
 
I still haven't seen a true LM quote, that 5th gen has to have supercruise. Someone writing an article doesn't count. I'll also say, since when does LM write the rules? This is a gov decision. Russian 5th gen is called 4th gen and no one complains, That they are doing it wrong.

The F-22 pilots puts situational awareness, above the speed and supercruseing of the F-22. If someone asks, I'll put up the video again.
 
I do not see what you claimed. LM even go out of their way to specify the F-22's supercruise. they don't mention the F-16 at all like you said. in keeping with something published in 2009 it seems to be fairly straightforward and written very broadly. LM won the JSF contest in 2001. Since super cruise is not a JSF requirement, and LM never says its a 5th generation requirement, you made that up.

Lockheed actually specify here that F-22 super cruises and not F-35, they actually make it very clear.

Extreme Fighter Performance

Subsonic, supersonic, high g's, quick acceleration even loaded with air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons, the F-22 and F-35 are true fighters while still incorporating their unmatched VLO stealth signatures. The F-22, with its unique features of high-altitude supercruise and thrust-vectoring, surpasses any existing or planned fighter.

"Any existing or planned fighter" would actually include the F-35 and they don't even try to hide that the F-35 does not do what F-22 can.

I have read back the last 15 pages or so in this thread and what it looks like to me is about the same around 3 vs 3 posters antagonizing one another. I read that theyre going to be making 150 F-35s per year and they just signed a contract for something like 400 more F-35s? "pwning" the F-35 over engine heat seems pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. F-35 has won Europe. Putin has accelerated it further.

Its all over but the crying as they say, but the good news is, the engine is underspecced! Who cares? well the people arguing on the internet care very deeply. Winning on the internet while losing in Europe really matters.

anyway. I read this link about 3 times and I never saw them say what you claimed, if I missed it by all means please show me. LM are smart enough to say "fighter agility" Which is very broad, and they specify the F-22 supercruises, not all "5th generation"

we are stuck with bitter posters arguing semantics over things they think LM said 14 years ago?
The F22 was used as a target for all 5th gen.
ie : supercruise + high agility (the reference was then F16 for dog fight - it's not without reasons F22 has a 20mm cannon and 2 AIM9X) + stealth + sensor fusion (something the americans thought they were alone to fine tune...). They add later "affordable".
The F-22 pilots puts situational awareness, above
This is why they emphased on sensor fusion. Good radars they already had.
 
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The F22 was used as a target for all 5th gen.
The JSF program, which again is a "next-generation" fighter according to the US and UK governments that created the JSF program never specified that the JSF had to supercruise. supercruise was never a requirement or a performance parameter of JSF. the KPPs never specified F-22 altitudes or thrust vectoring. And unlike yourself I have actually provided documentation. So far you have only debunked your own claims

It would seem that the US and UK government via the JSF "next-generation" designation redefined what "5th generation" was. Unless you are upset that with F-22 being the exclusive "5th generation" fighter. and JSF being "next generation" means the JSF winner should really be... 6th generation?
 
and JSF being "next generation" means the JSF winner should really be... 6th generation?
No, the only 6th generation aircraft are the Gripen E/F and the Rafale. Because they are aircraft where survivability is achieved without giving considerable importance to stealth, but rather by a combination of factors that include, in addition to stealth, agility, terrain following, electronic warfare, good tactical situational awareness and weapons effectiveness. Electronics is evolving faster than metalworking and coating chemistry, and after 20 years it makes a difference.
 
Well I checked with my friends from France, Germany and UK and all of them accepted that the inflation is pinching them hard. There are salary corrections, but it doesn’t absorb the impact. May be you are financially well off not to feel the heat 😉.
My French friends claim they are doing relatively well compared to Brits 😂 !!
Regarding US, I can confirm the inflation in grocery, restaurant prices and other household items is much higher that official numbers. The grocery and restaurant prices have gone up by 50-100 % in 2022!! The impact is so much that we were forced to change our life style!!
Sofinscope - Les Français et le budget alimentation 2023

Sofinscope - The French and the food budget 2023

Food:
faced with inflation, the French consume differently so as not to blow up their budget
While inflation is in full swing, the average French food budget has increased only slightly since 2017 (+7 euros). The reason: the French are adapting and making the necessary trade-offs to keep it under control. Thus, 68% of them have changed their food shopping habits and there are many tricks that allow them to avoid price increases as much as possible.Infographie_Sofinscope_Budget_alimentation_Mars_2023

A food budget that is not increasing much despite inflation

The average monthly food budget in February 2023 was 392 euros. This is only 7 euros more than in 2017 (the date of the last Sofinscope dedicated to the food budget), which can be explained in particular by the fall in food consumption. According to INSEE, over the whole of 2022, this has fallen by an average of 4.6%. The IRI also notes that the shopping basket has been emptied of 5% of products over the last 52 weeks.

Despite this stability, the average food budget covers disparities according to household profile and age. People with children declare a monthly budget of 472 euros, i.e. 200 euros more than single people. French people under 35 years of age report a monthly budget to fill their fridge of 289 euros, compared to 436 euros for people aged 65 and over.

To limit the impact of inflation, the French use a variety of techniques...

To continue to eat well despite the crisis while keeping their budget under control, the French are rationalising the way they do their food shopping by using a number of strategies. 76% of them say they systematically draw up a shopping list before going to the shop, in order to limit unexpected additions. Half of them say they set a precise monthly budget for their food (51%), and 23% prefer to shop on the Internet to keep track of the amount in their basket.

The hunt for the best prices is also a practice that is becoming part of French habits. In order not to cut back on pleasurable food purchases, the strategy of favouring products on special offer appeals to a majority of consumers (84%). More generally, systematically comparing the price of products according to brand has become standard practice for the vast majority of those interviewed (84%, +5 pts since 2017). In this logic of searching for the best prices, another change in practices is emerging: discount food shops are a real success (49% say they prefer them). And for good reason: for 98% of French people, the price of products is an important criterion for choosing a food store.
The fact of having a loyalty card/customer account on which to accumulate points is also a primordial, even determining, criterion in the choice of a food chain for 85% of respondents.

... and make trade-offs

With increases of over 40% in one year, the prices of meat products are soaring. As a result, two thirds of French people say they are buying less meat or fish (67%), an increase of 12 pts since 2017.