Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[randomradio]

F-35/5th gen vs Rafale or really any 4.5 jet. F-35 flies to within 100km of the Rafale and decides to signal his wingman to fire a missile. A drone from AIM260 distance away fires on the Rafale and it's all over. Only except to this rule is su-57.

It's also just much much much much much much much much much much worse in larger groups of 5th gen combined with systems.

Rafale has stealth too. But it's subject to what degree of it is introduced over time.

It's possible that by 2030, the F-35 won't have any tactical advantage against the Rafale with stealth alone, whereas the Rafale will detect the F-35 comparatively sooner if it doesn't introduce active cancellation as well.

 

[randomradio]

This is some meh logic. In a war where lets just say it's status quo without decisive victory, but a long attritional slog. It's in China's area. Their GDP takes a much bigger hit than USA who also takes a big hit. Reputation wise and political stability are shattered in China forever.

Of course, a loss from USA would mean hegemonic China as they would dominate Asia and USA would lose all power projection in Pacific for good.

China could suffer more, but could rebuild way faster.

Also, China's victory over Taiwan is inevitable. Even if they lose the first time, Taiwan will be far too devastated to be protected a second time. The Taiwanese may not even fight back.

Hell, I won't be surprised if the Chinese will simply purge the population and replace them with Mainland Chinese. It's an ideological war after all.

I feel China's population decline is our only real advantage we have today.

Just so you know, the WS-15 is apparently in production. It's possible it's already being delivered since the announcement. So, we could see at least 200 J-20s with the new engine prior to the war.

 

[randomradio]

I guess I just disagree with your Russia analysis. I don't think it's possible for them to challenge Europe, especially if the war turns even worse in Ukraine, which it probably will.

That's the advantage of having likeminded allies I guess.

Russia can force Europe into an arms race that's gonna be unaffordable. And there's not gonna be as much US help to alleviate the pressure.

But yeah, I don't believe Russia is ready to challenge Europe in such a short period of time. Even normally, they needed 10-15 years.

But if the Russians and Chinese have decided there's gonna be a new world war, then the Russians can military challenge Europe in just a few years. A country needs only 2 years to achieve WW2 level production rates.

 

[randomradio]

Yet still better than Rafale availability. Life is a mystery.
Rafale availability 50%
Full mission capability for Rafale SEAD/DEAD ...........0%

Then there is the chronic issue with the Rafale engine, that is singled out by the gov as an issue.

The French are too broke to both operate and upgrade the jet. It's not a problem with the jet itself. Rafale can easily operate well above 90% availability during peacetime, that's the reason why the IAF decided to buy just 36 instead of the standard 42.

 

[Optimist]

The French are too broke to both operate and upgrade the jet. It's not a problem with the jet itself. Rafale can easily operate well above 90% availability during peacetime, that's the reason why the IAF decided to buy just 36 instead of the standard 42.

that simply isn't true. It will take a lot of effort to get the indian required 75%. They have never sustained that over time. at the moment you have new aircraft. so that may help. High availability are when deployed and is time limited.

 

[Optimist]

Rafale has stealth too. But it's subject to what degree of it is introduced over time.

It's possible that by 2030, the F-35 won't have any tactical advantage against the Rafale with stealth alone, whereas the Rafale will detect the F-35 comparatively sooner if it doesn't introduce active cancellation as well.

You just make it up as you go, don't you. You have a good imagination. you should write children stories.

 

[randomradio]

And I love the chutzpa of they will only take the F-35 if they have full autonomy to use it as they wish when these knuckle heads forget their cute Tejas fighter uses US engines and some components which carry a restriction on how they can be used. Restriction is all paperwork and the Pakistanis showed the world that by using their Vipers and shooting down an IAF Mig.............................. and possibly an MKI.

We have full autonomy on how the LCA is used.

 

[randomradio]

that simply isn't true. It will take a lot of effort to get the indian required 75%. They have never sustained that over time. at the moment you have new aircraft. so that may help. High availability are when deployed and is time limited.

Not really. Availability is more subject to funds than anything else. The French simply spend less on operations and more on procurement. It means they have more jets than they need, so they do not need to spend money on keeping every jet flying. It's the opposite for countries like the US and India with lesser jets than requirements, which means we need to give more importance to availability. The Rafales have less than 50% availability because the French keep the other 50% in storage. And the jets that are in the field have an availability of 97%.

 

[randomradio]

You just make it up as you go, don't you. You have a good imagination. you should write children stories.

Active cancellation is a natural evolution of EW, the Americans are gonna introduce it too. The French simply did it first, like how the SU introduced ESA radars first.

It's also how the Growler maintains communications in a jamming environment.

EA-18G designers blend new and existing technology for new electronic warfare jet

It will have taken nearly four decades, but the U.S. Navy is finally about to enter two years of flight testing of a 21st-century replacement for the carrier-based EA-6B Prowler...

www.militaryaerospace.com

INCANS incorporates an active cancellation technology that samples the centerline jamming environment, then cancels it out from the broadcast frequency of the Growler’s UHF radio.

So, while the Growler does it for communications in UHF, the Rafale does the same in the X band for RCS. Possibly other bands too.

Btw, a French pilot called David Papallardo has claimed the F-35 uses active cancellation too.

Everybody's eventually gonna have it.

 

[Optimist]

Active cancellation is a natural evolution of EW, the Americans are gonna introduce it too

Such a vivid imagination you have. Again you are wrong. Try google, It is old tech for continuous wave radar. AESA also made it obsolete. What Bill Sweetman, the man who started this, called active cancelation, isn't active cancelation.

Now you want to try and tell me how the growler works?
You have the wrong end of the stick to what INCANS is. try google to trey and find a better explanation than what you have..

 

[Lolwa]

Russia can force Europe into an arms race that's gonna be unaffordable. And there's not gonna be as much US help to alleviate the pressure.

But yeah, I don't believe Russia is ready to challenge Europe in such a short period of time. Even normally, they needed 10-15 years.

But if the Russians and Chinese have decided there's gonna be a new world war, then the Russians can military challenge Europe in just a few years. A country needs only 2 years to achieve WW2 level production rates.

The Russians were running in scrapes even before the war. The war just accelerated it. The Russians need atleast 2 decades to recover.

 

[Herciv]

For instance, Andrle said: “We’re looking at an Sa-20 [NATO’s name for the S-300 surface-to-air missile system]. I know it’s an Sa-20. Intel says there’s an Sa-20 there, but now my jet doesn’t ID it as such, because that Sa-20 is operating, potentially, in a war reserve mode that we haven’t seen before.”

But the F-35 flagged the object for troops who updated and re-uploaded the data into the jet. After that, NATO aircraft knew what they were looking at and how to geolocate it. That makes it harder to take NATO by surprise.

I thouht it was done immediatly. Why reloading it ?

 

[Herciv]

F-35 in the mud and not by little (UK Yesterday) in every sence you can give.

 

[Optimist]

Why reloading it ?

It was added to the threat library and shared. Removed on landing. Then the library was reloaded for the next mission.

 

[randomradio]

Such a vivid imagination you have. Again you are wrong. Try google, It is old tech for continuous wave radar. AESA also made it obsolete. What Bill Sweetman, the man who started this, called active cancelation, isn't active cancelation.

You've studied active cancellation when you were in school, it's called destructive interference.

But talking about it and doing it in practice are two different things.

If this works ideally, then all other means of stealth become irrelevant. You won't need shaping or absorbent materials. In fact, if it works perfectly in an ideal world, then literally anything can be made invisible to radars, that's how effective it can be.

Now you want to try and tell me how the growler works?
You have the wrong end of the stick to what INCANS is. try google to trey and find a better explanation than what you have..

I'm pretty sure I have a better handle on what INCANS is than you do.

Anyway this is from the OEM's website.

EA-18G Interference Cancellation System (INCANS)

The L3Harris INterference CANcellation System (INCANS) removes jammer interference to protect the pilot’s communications.

www.l3harris.com

INCANS collects a sample of the jammer interference and uses that sample to create an anti-interference signal, which it then mixes into the receive path for the protected radio. The result of mixing the interference and anti-interference is that they cancel each other out, leaving only the desired reception.

Now are you gonna claim you know more than the makers of this system?

It's in the name itself... "Interference Cancellation System".

 

[randomradio]

The Russians were running in scrapes even before the war. The war just accelerated it. The Russians need atleast 2 decades to recover.

The Russian army is barely even fighting in the war. All the offensive efforts are being led by the Wagner Group and the militias.

Their entire army is just sitting around artillery bombing the living sh!t out of the Ukrainians.

And what the Russians are actually losing, like armoured vehicles, are all easily replaceable by their standards.

Their economy needs time to recover, but their military won't have any real funding issues, the Russian govt is filthy rich. The Russians are as rich as the Saudis and the stuff they make cost 1/4th of Western stuff. If they want to make WW2-level investments into their military, they can do that overnight.

 

[Optimist]

You've studied active cancellation when you were in school, it's called destructive interference.

But talking about it and doing it in practice are two different things.

If this works ideally, then all other means of stealth become irrelevant. You won't need shaping or absorbent materials. In fact, if it works perfectly in an ideal world, then literally anything can be made invisible to radars, that's how effective it can be.



I'm pretty sure I have a better handle on what INCANS is than you do.

Anyway this is from the OEM's website.

EA-18G Interference Cancellation System (INCANS)

The L3Harris INterference CANcellation System (INCANS) removes jammer interference to protect the pilot’s communications.

www.l3harris.com

INCANS collects a sample of the jammer interference and uses that sample to create an anti-interference signal, which it then mixes into the receive path for the protected radio. The result of mixing the interference and anti-interference is that they cancel each other out, leaving only the desired reception.

Now are you gonna claim you know more than the makers of this system?

It's in the name itself... "Interference Cancellation System".

"The Harris INterference CANcellation System (INCANS) removes jammer interference to protect the pilot’s communications.

The EA-18G Growler uses powerful electronic attack jammers to blind enemy radar and protect allied aircraft during missions into hostile territory. Unfortunately, the very high energy from the jammers also blocks on-board communications. INCANS collects a sample of the jammer interference and uses that sample to create and anti-interference signal, which it then mixes into the receive path for the protected radio. The result of mixing the interference and anti-interference is that they cancel each other out, leaving only the desired reception.

Harris delivers communications while jamming capability."

do you want to talk about active cancellation headphones, too?

We can even talk about active cancellation on the collins class submarine, that's public now.

All 3 are a whole different kettle of fish, to active cancelation radar. Which is now obsolete.

Start a new topic EMS "Electromagnetic spectrum 101" at the moment you are 1+1=5

 

[Optimist]

Have a think and a read, about the reasons it is now obsolete in the battlespace. However my anker active noise cancelling q30 headphones are great.

continuous wave radar "active cancellation" - Google Search

 

[Lolwa]

The Russian army is barely even fighting in the war. All the offensive efforts are being led by the Wagner Group and the militias.

Their entire army is just sitting around artillery bombing the living sh!t out of the Ukrainians.

And what the Russians are actually losing, like armoured vehicles, are all easily replaceable by their standards.

Their economy needs time to recover, but their military won't have any real funding issues, the Russian govt is filthy rich. The Russians are as rich as the Saudis and the stuff they make cost 1/4th of Western stuff. If they want to make WW2-level investments into their military, they can do that overnight.

I agree the Russians are barely fighting this war considering how stupidly the average Russian conscript is dying to stuff. But they are experiencing substantial losses. Let's not be delusional.
The Ukrainians are equally getting slaughtered but they have the intelligence advantage. The demographic damage the Ukrainians are going to experience is going to be sad. Same for Russians to a lesser extent.
Russians are experiencing production shortfalls. We still don't know if they can get all the raw materials and components to procure them. We don't even know if the Chinese are exporting some supplies or not.

"The Harris INterference CANcellation System (INCANS) removes jammer interference to protect the pilot’s communications.

The EA-18G Growler uses powerful electronic attack jammers to blind enemy radar and protect allied aircraft during missions into hostile territory. Unfortunately, the very high energy from the jammers also blocks on-board communications. INCANS collects a sample of the jammer interference and uses that sample to create and anti-interference signal, which it then mixes into the receive path for the protected radio. The result of mixing the interference and anti-interference is that they cancel each other out, leaving only the desired reception.

Harris delivers communications while jamming capability."

do you want to talk about active cancellation headphones, too?

We can even talk about active cancellation on the collins class submarine, that's public now.

All 3 are a whole different kettle of fish, to active cancelation radar. Which is now obsolete.

Start a new topic EMS "Electromagnetic spectrum 101" at the moment you are 1+1=5

I don't think INCANS will be effective against Spectra. It's more of redundancy.

 

[Optimist]

I don't think INCANS will be effective against Spectra. It's more of redundancy.

It's not electronic attack. It's to counteract the EM output of the growler. that interferes with other systems on the aircraft. It is all internal.