Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Optimist]

In the IAF, MKI was 4.5th gen until the Rafale came along, and has now been demoted to a 4th gen aircraft with a 3rd gen engine.

Only in frog world can you change 'gen' depending on how you feel for the day. There is no demotion of the MKI, it is what it is. If it was classed 4.5, it is still 4.5. Was it classed 4.5?

NATO has it as 4+, i haven't checked if they use 4.5
NATO reporting name Flanker-H. The Su-30SM is considered a 4+ generation fighter jet. The aircraft has been upgraded according to Russian military requirements for radar, radio communications systems, friend-or-foe identification system, ejection seats, weapons, and other aircraft systems.

 

[Panzerjager]

Besides , since when does the performance of a FA determine it's success. Especially when the US is involved. Doesn't geopolitical heft play a role ? The operational performance of the F-35 is there for all to see . Are you seriously telling us that in spite of all these glitches the USAF is mighty pleased with the F-35 AS IT IS , leave aside foreign AFs in whose force the F-35 provides service .

if only the United States could offer other aircraft besides F-35, like F-15, F-16, and F-18E/F, Growler. its not like they are upgrading them either, there is no F-15EX, no F-16V, no Block III Super Hornet, no NGJ pod. That way people could still buy American without being stuck on F-35s? just crazy talk. we don't live in a world like that though. Australia bought Growlers and Super Hornets outright. I know Poland basically went to the US directly and said something like "if you offered us F-16s, we would buy them" so its not like countries can't come directly to the US with orders. Its hard to Imagine the US saying "no" to a country that said "F-15X or nothing" You can buy American without buying F-35. They have just about everything too, from dedicated Jammers to Late model air superiority F-15s

 

[_Anonymous_]

It shows that the United States has a robust reporting apparatus that actually publicly discloses aircraft problems and then moves to fix them.

And France doesn't ? Somebody forgot to tell your present adminstration about this & France got invited to the summit on democracy hosted by Irish Joe .

Pointing out that Australia trusts F-35s and not Rafales for its defence is a great point.

Oh yes ! Especially after AUKUS was announced . That the French are peeved about it is on them .

Indeed at the end of the day Oz employs F-35s.

Indeed.

Look if the idea is to wave the stars & stripes apart from sleeping with it in the form of your boxers living up to the WASP ideal of America with or without the MAGA component , we've already resident redneck here doing that - Bubba J , who's sworn his new year's resolution would be to not have his prostate examined & massaged by anybody who's not a medical professional .

Since you seem to be a newbie here & of Indian descent ( I'm guessing ) , thought this needed a bit of explanation . Isn't it ? @Innominate

 

[BMD]

The Weekly Debrief: Air-launched, SM-6-like Missile Exposed In New Test Photo | Aviation Week Network

A civilian photographer captured the photo in 2018 as the F/A-18F with the markings of VX-31 air test and evaluation squadron landed at Point Mugu, California.

aviationweek.com

 

[_Anonymous_]

if only the United States could offer other aircraft besides F-35, like F-15, F-16, and F-18E/F, Growler. its not like they are upgrading them either, there is no F-15EX, no F-16V, no Block III Super Hornet, no NGJ pod. That way people could still buy American without being stuck on F-35s? just crazy talk. we don't live in a world like that though. Australia bought Growlers and Super Hornets outright. I know Poland basically went to the US directly and said something like "if you offered us F-16s, we would buy them" so its not like countries can't come directly to the US with orders. Its hard to Imagine the US saying "no" to a country that said "F-15X or nothing" You can buy American without buying F-35. They have just about everything too, from dedicated Jammers to Late model air superiority F-15s

Yes , UAE got offered the Lightnings only to have the offer withdrawn with the US offering them anything under the sun except the Lightnings ( they already fly the F-16) .

They in turn , told Blinken & Biden exactly what they thought of the offer & them & went off to buy the Rafales from France - the best 4.5 ++ Gen FA in business today till such time as the Su-57M ( interesting hybrid between 4.5+++ Gen & 5 Gen capabilities ) makes an appearance IMO but early days to bring it up as of now .

Too bad the Eurofighter has no satisfactory roadmap for it's future path & with the partner countries opting for the Lightnings , it makes for the worst possible advertisement.

To think there used to be articles on the comparison between the Rafales & Eurofighters by IAF veterans & international Defence correspondents & analysts on why the Eurofighter would be a better buy listing it's advantages over the Rafales , slightly over a decade ago when the MMRCA 1.0 competition was nearing it's climax .

The Gripen has essentially reached it's zenith as far as what we can expect from it in terms of a platform . I'm afraid it's going to be downhill from here onwards . Plus Sweden hardly has the heft or the financial clout of a US or France for that matter .

 

[Panzerjager]

Yes , UAE got offered the Lightnings only to have the offer withdrawn with the US offering them anything under the sun except the Lightnings ( they already fly the F-16) .

They in turn , told Blinken & Biden exactly what they thought of the offer & them & went off to buy the Rafales from France - the best 4.5 ++ Gen FA in business today till such time as the Su-57M ( interesting hybrid between 4.5+++ Gen & 5 Gen capabilities ) makes an appearance IMO but early days to bring it up as of now .

Too bad the Eurofighter has no satisfactory roadmap for it's future path & with the partner countries opting for the Lightnings , it makes for the worst possible advertisement.

To think there used to be articles on the comparison between the Rafales & Eurofighters by IAF veterans & international Defence correspondents & analysts on why the Eurofighter would be a better buy listing it's advantages over the Rafales , slightly over a decade ago when the MMRCA 1.0 competition was nearing it's climax .

The Gripen has essentially reached it's zenith as far as what we can expect from it in terms of a platform . I'm afraid it's going to be downhill from here onwards . Plus Sweden hardly has the heft or the financial clout of a US or France for that matter

That is terrible news, I was assured that the 5th generation fighters were a dead end, and now to hear that half the 6th generation fighters are now going downhill already despite the fact that the Gripen E is 20 years newer than Rafale is simply unreal. its interesting how fast the 6th generation attributes collapsed.

And France doesn't ? Somebody forgot to tell your present adminstration about this & France got invited to the summit on democracy hosted by Irish Joe .
Oh yes ! Especially after AUKUS was announced . That the French are peeved about it is on them .
Indeed.
Look if the idea is to wave the stars & stripes apart from sleeping with it in the form of your boxers living up to the WASP ideal of America with or without the MAGA component , we've already resident redneck here doing that - Bubba J , who's sworn his new year's resolution would be to not have his prostate examined & massaged by anybody who's not a medical professional .
Since you seem to be a newbie here & of Indian descent ( I'm guessing ) , thought this needed a bit of explanation . Isn't it ? @Innominate

Ok?

 

[Panzerjager]

Only in frog world can you change 'gen' depending on how you feel for the day. There is no demotion of the MKI, it is what it is. If it was classed 4.5, it is still 4.5. Was it classed 4.5?

NATO has it as 4+, i haven't checked if they use 4.5
NATO reporting name Flanker-H. The Su-30SM is considered a 4+ generation fighter jet. The aircraft has been upgraded according to Russian military requirements for radar, radio communications systems, friend-or-foe identification system, ejection seats, weapons, and other aircraft systems.

it must have been great for the Indian air force to go from over 250 gen 4.5 aircraft with its Flankers and then the Rafale arrives and suddenly they have only 36 Gen 4.5 aircraft with Rafale and all the Flankers have been "demoted" to 4th generation. very logical.

 

[_Anonymous_]

That is terrible news, I was assured that the 5th generation fighters were a dead end, and now to hear that half the 6th generation fighters are now going downhill already despite the fact that the Gripen E is 20 years newer than Rafale is simply unreal. its interesting how fast the 6th generation attributes collapsed.

How about taking it up with those who made this claim unless you're the new crusader / Evangelist for the F-35 out here ? Remember I told you we already have one of that species here .

Ok?

 

[Rajput Lion]

it must have been great for the Indian air force to go from over 250 gen 4.5 aircraft with its Flankers and then the Rafale arrives and suddenly they have only 36 Gen 4.5 aircraft with Rafale and all the Flankers have been "demoted" to 4th generation. very logical.

Base Rafale and Su-30MKI are both 4.5 gen fighters. Difference is Su-30MKI has more or less remained the same with outdated PESA(hybrid) and IRST while current Rafale- F3R- I version which we've got is the most advance version of Rafale flying anywhere with AESA radar, new SPECTRA modes and QWIP IRST. So in my opinion it's pretty much 4++ or 4.75 gen. Very near 5th gen minus passive stealth.

MKI upgrade will surpass Rafale in most of the categories except few area where Rafale will always have some advantages over MKI and vice-versa.

Rest everything is just 'vested interest' jargon. Period.

 

[Panzerjager]

How about taking it up with those who made this claim unless you're the new crusader / Evangelist for the F-35 out here ? Remember I told you we already have one of that species here .

I have taken it up with him. and relax bud, you were more fun when you ranting about Irish joes, boxer shorts and prostate exams. The crusades are over anyway

 

[_Anonymous_]

I have taken it up with him. and relax bud, you were more fun when you ranting about Irish joes, boxer shorts and prostate exams. The crusades are over anyway

At least I was fun in something. Otoh you seem to be a complaint box within the first week of your arrival. May the rest of your journey here be more interesting .

 

[Optimist]

it must have been great for the Indian air force to go from over 250 gen 4.5 aircraft with its Flankers and then the Rafale arrives and suddenly they have only 36 Gen 4.5 aircraft with Rafale and all the Flankers have been "demoted" to 4th generation. very logical.

Not a lot makes sense in Indian procurement. Changing generations on a whim? Would be a step too far, even for the team. Playing both sides of the fence, with russian and US purchases. Is enough on their plate.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Not a lot makes sense in Indian procurement. Changing generations on a whim? Would be a step too far, even for the team. Playing both sides of the fence, with russian and US purchases. Is enough on their plate.

We don't want to put all our eggs in one basket. The end goal is achieve 100% indigenisation and we will get there no matter what.

 

[Rajput Lion]

As per the USAF, the F-22(Block-20) is no more competitive against J-20. This is as official as it gets. J-20 threat is real for both US and India. Excerpt:

In March 29 testimony before the House Armed Services Committee’s tactical aviation panel, Moore said the Block 20s are not “competitive” with the latest Chinese J-20 stealth fighters. And while the aircraft could be used for training, Moore said they are so out of synch with the combat-coded Block 35s that pilots are receiving “negative” training from them, meaning they have to “unlearn” habits developed in the Block 20 before they can become proficient in the Block 35.“They’re not combat representative,” Moore added during the Mitchell event.

“They will never be a part of the combat force. They don’t have the most modern communications. They don’t shoot the most modern weapons. They don’t have the most modern electronic warfare capabilities. They will not become combat representative aircraft, and so we elected to maintain our position from [fiscal year] ‘23 that it’s time to move on from the Block 20.”

Source: Moore: ‘It’s Time to Move On’ from Block 20 F-22s, JATM Still on Schedule

@randomradio @_Anonymous_ @Innominate @BMD @Optimist

 

[Innominate]

As per the USAF, the F-22(Block-20) is no more competitive against J-20. This is as official as it gets. J-20 threat is real for both US and India. Excerpt:






Source: Moore: ‘It’s Time to Move On’ from Block 20 F-22s, JATM Still on Schedule

@randomradio @_Anonymous_ @Innominate @BMD @Optimist

Block 20s are used for training new pilots and for air shows. Their skin are a mess getting no RAM treatment.

-Clearly, performing at air shows doesn't require any stealth at all. In fact, the jets wear bolt-on radar-reflecting lenses so that their radar cross-section appears large on air traffic control radars. So, it makes sense to send jets that are not fresh out of low-observables servicing for such tasks and using those that are for more challenging and pressing missions.

In addition, roughly a third of the relatively tiny F-22 fleet is not combat coded at any given time. Older models that have not been upgraded to latest block configurations are used for training and in some cases testing. Once again, these aircraft would likely have a lower priority for keeping their stealth cloak in check than their front-line counterparts.

These Images Of An F-22 Raptor's Crumbling Radar Absorbent Skin Are Fascinating

The photos are a reminder of just how much work goes into keeping the F-22's skin ready for combat and the amazing science behind its stealthy design.

www.thedrive.com

In peace time there's never money and the whole USAF fleet has an average mission capable rate but those that are deployed for combat or possible combat have an 80% to 90% MCR. When Ukraine war escalates soon F-35's and F-22's that will be deployed to Europe for the coming conflict will have above 75% MCR. Same with F-35's and F-22's deployed to asia to defend Taiwan. Somehow the money will magically appear and the parts to keep the fighters ready.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Block 20s are used for training new pilots and for air shows. Their skin are a mess getting no RAM treatment.

-Clearly, performing at air shows doesn't require any stealth at all. In fact, the jets wear bolt-on radar-reflecting lenses so that their radar cross-section appears large on air traffic control radars. So, it makes sense to send jets that are not fresh out of low-observables servicing for such tasks and using those that are for more challenging and pressing missions.

In addition, roughly a third of the relatively tiny F-22 fleet is not combat coded at any given time. Older models that have not been upgraded to latest block configurations are used for training and in some cases testing. Once again, these aircraft would likely have a lower priority for keeping their stealth cloak in check than their front-line counterparts.

These Images Of An F-22 Raptor's Crumbling Radar Absorbent Skin Are Fascinating

The photos are a reminder of just how much work goes into keeping the F-22's skin ready for combat and the amazing science behind its stealthy design.

www.thedrive.com

In peace time there's never money and the whole USAF fleet has an average mission capable rate but those that are deployed for combat or possible combat have an 80% to 90% MCR. When Ukraine war escalates soon F-35's and F-22's that will be deployed to Europe for the coming conflict will have above 75% MCR. Same with F-35's and F-22's deployed to asia to defend Taiwan. Somehow the money will magically appear and the parts to keep the fighters ready.

So out of 187 operational F-22s only 155 are fully combat ready(minus 32 Block-20 ones)? And China has already got over 200 J-20s now and they will fight with home-field advantage.

Condition ain't so rosy for your USAF to take on China. F-35 also needs Block-4 upgrade with GaN APG-85 and GaN EW plus QWIP EOTS etc. to take on J-20. Got to buckle up my Yankee buddy

 

[Innominate]

So out of 187 operational F-22s only 155 are fully combat ready(minus 32 Block-20 ones)? And China has already got over 200 J-20s now and they will fight with home-field advantage.

Condition ain't so rosy for your USAF to take on China. F-35 also needs Block-4 upgrade with GaN APG-85 and GaN EW plus QWIP EOTS etc. to take on J-20. Got to buckle up my Yankee buddy

Chicoms aint going to have their whole J-20 fleet combat ready and deployed to the eastern front. There's only so many airbases chicoms can use for an attack on Taiwan and those bases are well within range of Taiwan cruise missiles.

F-35's, F-22's, F-18E's, F-16V/AESA, F-15E/Apg82 all go to war in a network centric warfare system that includes Naval warships, ISR aircraft and SATs. US will own the whole EM spectrum giving them superior battle space picture. Current F-35's are more than capable of taking on J-20s. The Apg-81is still the most advanced AESA that is on any fighter with capabilities that no other fighter AESA has. People in here for some reason have decided to crown the J-20s a$$ with capabilities they pulled out of their a$$es. J-20 is the chicoms first "stealth fighter" and they are not going to publicize any issue it has unlike the F-35 program.

Wanna address/continue a bit a conflict with the chicoms...

US has been training for this kind of war and this is where training with close allies pays off bigtime because they get to use their ECM and EW to full effect against each other where chicoms have no allies to train this way. When chicoms train with Russians it is heavily scripted and they never use their EM energy for obvious reasons.

Chicoms are still at least a decade away from being able to fight in a combine arms/Joint command style warfare and their first bigboy war will be against a modern military like Taiwan, US, Japan and Australia... Good luck with that.

 

[Optimist]

As per the USAF, the F-22(Block-20) is no more competitive against J-20. This is as official as it gets. J-20 threat is real for both US and India. Excerpt:

Source: Moore: ‘It’s Time to Move On’ from Block 20 F-22s, JATM Still on Schedule

@randomradio @_Anonymous_ @Innominate @BMD @Optimist

I saw how the block 20 is a dead end and too expensive to update. When designed at the time. The blocks were separate and difficult to update to the next block. There are good reasons for this and as said, doesn't have the later weapons, needed for the J-20

 

[_Anonymous_]

Chicoms aint going to have their whole J-20 fleet combat ready and deployed to the eastern front. There's only so many airbases chicoms can use for an attack on Taiwan and those bases are well within range of Taiwan cruise missiles.

F-35's, F-22's, F-18E's, F-16V/AESA, F-15E/Apg82 all go to war in a network centric warfare system that includes Naval warships, ISR aircraft and SATs. US will own the whole EM spectrum giving them superior battle space picture. Current F-35's are more than capable of taking on J-20s. The Apg-81is still the most advanced AESA that is on any fighter with capabilities that no other fighter AESA has. People in here for some reason have decided to crown the J-20s a$$ with capabilities they pulled out of their a$$es. J-20 is the chicoms first "stealth fighter" and they are not going to publicize any issue it has unlike the F-35 program.

View attachment 27312


Wanna address/continue a bit a conflict with the chicoms...

US has been training for this kind of war and this is where training with close allies pays off bigtime because they get to use their ECM and EW to full effect against each other where chicoms have no allies to train this way. When chicoms train with Russians it is heavily scripted and they never use their EM energy for obvious reasons.

Chicoms are still at least a decade away from being able to fight in a combine arms/Joint command style warfare and their first bigboy war will be against a modern military like Taiwan, US, Japan and Australia... Good luck with that.

While I agree the broader points you make Bubba J , you're still fighting a near peer on the latter's home turf. This isn't going to be a home safe & dry scenario any time soon once the conflict erupts . Basically what I'm trying to convey is you'd need to deploy full spectrum capabilities to get the better of them. That's something we're all looking forward to . You take down the CCP & emerge from the entire event barely alive with nothing of note in your armoury surviving .

Say amen to the thought !

 

[Rajput Lion]

Chinese IADS, EW systems, satellites and land based IRST/EO systems are very very advance and dangerous. Even J-20 got shot in their own Army vs AF exercise when it was imitating guess what...F-35, lol