Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

And I hope you are sitting down for this, that LM says things that are not always true, just like a lot of weapon's manufacturers who all say their widget is the best.

And you're standing guarantee that LM never exaggerates ? At all?? All through their history...

I still know what Dassault means by "omnirole" even if Rafale can't do SEAD/DEAD.


As noted by the colonel, the initial capability will be integrated into F4-standard Rafales, with a higher-end capability earmarked for F5 aircraft. The ‘speed' weapon systems to be integrated will likely be the supersonic anti-ship missile being developed by France and the UK under Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon (FC/ASW) programme (Futur Missile Anti-Navire/Futur Missile de Croisière: FMAN/FMC). The ‘saturation' element might be the Select Precision Effects At Range-Electronic Warfare (SPEAR-EW) effector, or something similar.

Addressing the question of the nearly eight-year timeline for the employment of the dedicated SEAD/DEAD capability, Col Souberbielle said that 2030 is the date that both the F5-standard Rafale and the FC/ASW missile are scheduled to come online.


That the Rafales "will get DEAD / SEAD capabilities" doesn't mean they're lacking it now. Hell, IAF got the Rafales primarily to function as a low flying DPSA which meant strategic bomber to carry our arsenal of gravity N bombs. The French AF would be getting a dedicated weapon for it by 2030 along with the F-5 upgrade. We can mate our Brahmos to Rafales anytime we want .

Two things I want to see
LM saying what is claimed all those years ago.
The F-35 wilting like a flower the second this decades old "truth" is re-discovered and all F-35 orders canceled, because of a collapse in marketing.

Aren't you over reacting? How old did you say you are?
 
This is the same guy that thinks the J-20 is superior than F-35.

But yes just a little google and he'd find this...

And the new upgrade that just started.

It' s not that hard to research his BS claims which tells me he's relying on peoples laziness to not check his claims.

Lol, that report proves exactly what I said, there was no significant hardware upgrade. It's just basic comm and nav upgrades alongside some updates, and that's routine stuff that all aircraft go through.

And the second article talks about stuff that will come through after 2026. :ROFLMAO:

Wow, these guys don't even know they are proving my claims.
 
Context...

@Ashwin we need a faceplam emoji.

The first 2 posts literally carry the same meaning. The F-22 needs upgrades and it was started initially, to be delivered from 2026 onwards. So it's still flying with old stuff TODAY.

The last post refers to a subsystem, not a fighter jet itself. That's why you gotta understand the meaning of the word "context". Life becomes easier if you actually understand for the sake of understanding and not use your mouth as an exhaust port.
You can not use the word "context" to patch up and repair any post when you make a bold declaration that is then proven wrong, in the very same post that you contradict. You said the F-22 was not getting upgrades and then actually posted one of the upgrades it had already, which is not a surprise because the F-22 is constantly getting upgrades, and even as you complain that the GaAS radar is lagging the teen fighters I'm pretty sure Rafale is not using a GaN (Gripen E is of course) if its a matter of just having the latest and greatest toys, then look no further than Gripen E. but you would be fast to tell me that just because it has GaN and Rafale has GaAs doesn't meant Rafale is outdated. or "generations behind"

Maybe you need to be a little more precise in your language. when you say " No upgrade program has been initiated for the F-22 until recently and is yet to deliver" and then also say the F-22 got a HUD upgrade year ago (just one example) it makes it seem like you don't pay attention and saying "context" is not the magical fix for that simply talking without some sort of consistency.

if I were to say the F-35 is better than the Rafale, just be assured that "context" makes it so. nothing personal or anything. nothing against the Rafale, you just don't understand the context if you point out reasons such things may not be true.


:rolleyes: I have no issues calling the F-35 5th gen. You are way too sensitive to criticism.

Anyway, many air forces operate the F-35, but none of them have given it an FOC tag, which certifies the jet for use in a war.

guess how we know that is not true?

Unless you understand context, how are you gonna explain anything?

Most people here already don't understand that word. It's the same with generations. An F-16 is considered 4th gen, but an F-16 B5 is easily slaughtered by a Block 30 which in turn is slaughtered by a B50 which in turn is slaughtered by a B60 which in turn is slaughtered by a B70. That's 5 generations under just the "4th gen" tag alone, but the B60 and B70 are the worst designs in the family. Tell them to explain it, they can't, 'cause they don't understand context. So what are they, 4.2nd generation, 4.4th, 4.6th, 4.8th and 4.9th? Make it make sense. Which is why experts use designations, which fit under classes and roles, and are not defined by generations.

So the B70 has better hardware than the F-35, but it still sucks. Otoh, the B30 is multiple generations behind the F-35, but it's the best F-16. So make that make sense. I doubt you can.

Each of those F-16 generations can be broken down quite easily if you know what you're talking about. This applies to pretty much any aircraft. So you may call the F-35 5th gen, but it may not be equal to the standards that applies to a different jet carrying the same tag as 5th gen and vice versa, 'cause everything is based on context and is extremely specific to a situation.

feel free to explain all the "context" in your J-20 F-22 comparisons.


There's no one here who's been more contrarian to Picdel than me. I have argued for both the F-35 and the SH over the Rafale. But when he's right, he's right. The problem with you is as long as you remove that stick up your *censored* and start asking questions to understand where he was speaking from rather than blowing your top off, you would have actually learnt something, instead you are trying to become Ignorants' successor and are almost there.

I agreed with pickleoil and then watched him change his mind on a dime and conclude by telling me that his mind is made up and there is nothing that will convince him otherwise. he briefly shared the spotlight with one of my favorite fighters and then when he realized it actually surpasses Rafale in some aspects he quickly downgraded the only other "6th generation fighter" to a Mirage 2000, that he then assured me wasn't a downgrade, but the Rafale had surpassed long ago. That was a great learning experience, believe me.
And you're standing guarantee that LM never exaggerates ? At all?? All through their history...

Aren't you over reacting? How old did you say you are?
for someone who likes to throw jokes and insults around, you struggle to detect others joking back and other "tongue in cheek" quips.

;)
 
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The problem with you is as long as you xxxx remove that stick up your *censored* and start asking questions to understand where he was speaking from rather than blowing your top off, yo ....

See what happens when you miss inserting a verb ( in place of xxxx ) ? The whole meaning changes. Especially if you get flustered & are naturally conflicted . Then you do what you do always . Botch up a good case & in the same breath accuse others of being stupid.

SOP for RST. Some things never change. For everything else there's ........
 
No, no, he wants an official "Lockheed Martin" source, with "classified" written at the bottom of the Powerpoint slide.
Just show what they said. Very simple.

Lol, that report proves exactly what I said, there was no significant hardware upgrade. It's just basic comm and nav upgrades alongside some updates, and that's routine stuff that all aircraft go through.

And the second article talks about stuff that will come through after 2026. :ROFLMAO:

Wow, these guys don't even know they are proving my claims.


its not even updated! ok its upgraded but the upgrade doesn't matter!

got us!
I thought you were taking after Bubba J out here . I see I was mistaken. Going by your MO , you seem to be taking after RST . Anyway , signing off on this topic . Frankly it's a waste of time .
I have no idea who you are talking about, and yes it is a waste of time. but i will PM you when we solve the "LM said" mystery from decades back. I'm curious to see how the 2000 era LM marketing plays out over the next 20 years. will let you know.
 
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Lol, that report proves exactly what I said, there was no significant hardware upgrade. It's just basic comm and nav upgrades alongside some updates, and that's routine stuff that all aircraft go through.

And the second article talks about stuff that will come through after 2026. :ROFLMAO:

Wow, these guys don't even know they are proving my claims.
Riiiiight. Aim-9x2 and Aim-120D upgrade that gives the F-22 a 130+ mile shot is not significant. dumb dumb. :rolleyes:
 
Riiiiight. Aim-9x2 and Aim-120D upgrade that gives the F-22 a 130+ mile shot is not significant. dumb dumb. :rolleyes:
you just don't understand the context. On one hand the situation and many other variances and details really matter and its important to listen to the experts and strive to understand the multi-faceted nature of these individual aircraft and how they are employed, rather than just looking at the "newest" block or version and declaring it superior, like the various F-16 blocks, which is better? well that depends... one must not be too quick to simply dismiss something.

But also the F-22 is like an iphone 1 or 2 and the J-20 is like an iphone 13 or 14 because the F-22 is rocking a Gaas Radar-- Rafale style!

insert laughing emoji! :ROFLMAO:

Am i doing it right?

is the F-22 being modernized? yes absolutely and there is a lot of data to show this in various artciles, its being modernized further as well with continuous upgrades for decades to come and another big one coming up in the next few years.

however they didn't update the radar like randomradio decided was the only mark of improvement, and thus the answer is now --no, the F-22 is not being upgraded and never has been either. its just an iphone 1 or 2 because that was the standard that was invented. thanks for proving my claim!
the J-20 wins!
 
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It' s not that hard to research his BS claims which tells me he's relying on peoples laziness to not check his claims.
I don't think he cares. He just makes things up as he goes along. Whatever sounds good to him in the moment. As long as it is anti-US, it's a good day. J-20 is the best.
 
I agreed with pickleoil and then watched him change his mind on a dime and conclude by telling me that his mind is made up and there is nothing that will convince him otherwise. he briefly shared the spotlight with one of my favorite fighters and then when he realized it actually surpasses Rafale in some aspects he quickly downgraded the only other "6th generation fighter" to a Mirage 2000, that he then assured me wasn't a downgrade, but the Rafale had surpassed long ago. That was a great learning experience, believe me.
I'm shocked that he is going against the 'experts' and not accepting that Gripen is 6th gen. I've seen numerous sources say it. It's as if he has some sort of agenda, is that possible?

So it is just the Rafale that is 6th gen. I'm sure it is a sad day for SAAB, Pic has spoken.
 
I'm shocked that he is going against the 'experts' and not accepting that Gripen is 6th gen. I've seen numerous sources say it. It's as if he has some sort of agenda, is that possible?

So it is just the Rafale that is 6th gen. I'm sure it is a sad day for SAAB, Pic has spoken.
it is the tallest trees that are cut down first, the brightest stars that fade the soonest, and sadly the Gripen E/F's time as a 6th generation fighter lasted only a brief 5 hours, and 55 minutes. he giveth, he realize-th his error, he taketh away.

Gone but not forgotten, RIP Gripen E/F. 6th generation in our hearts. :cry:
 
You can not use the word "context" to patch up and repair any post when you make a bold declaration that is then proven wrong, in the very same post that you contradict. You said the F-22 was not getting upgrades and then actually posted one of the upgrades it had already, which is not a surprise because the F-22 is constantly getting upgrades, and even as you complain that the GaAS radar is lagging the teen fighters I'm pretty sure Rafale is not using a GaN (Gripen E is of course) if its a matter of just having the latest and greatest toys, then look no further than Gripen E. but you would be fast to tell me that just because it has GaN and Rafale has GaAs doesn't meant Rafale is outdated. or "generations behind"

Maybe you need to be a little more precise in your language. when you say " No upgrade program has been initiated for the F-22 until recently and is yet to deliver" and then also say the F-22 got a HUD upgrade year ago (just one example) it makes it seem like you don't pay attention and saying "context" is not the magical fix for that simply talking without some sort of consistency.

if I were to say the F-35 is better than the Rafale, just be assured that "context" makes it so. nothing personal or anything. nothing against the Rafale, you just don't understand the context if you point out reasons such things may not be true.

You do realise you are putting words in my mouth right? I obviously never said anything of the sort. What I said was the F-22 is using a radar that's multiple generations behind the J-20, that's it. And since the F-22 came into existence, it's not received a radar upgrade and is due one soon. So, if there's a war this year, the F-22 is gonna fight with outdated avionics, practically obsolete compared to the J-20.

As for the Rafale, for months now I have been saying the Rafale has fallen behind in this area. But it's gonna come back with a bang in 2030.

The problem for me is the stuff I wish the F-22 and Rafale had, stuff people on our side have, is what already exists on the J-20, so we are getting ready for an a$$-whooping pretty soon without equivalent tech of our own. Both India and the US. It's also why the US wants to delay a war over Taiwan as much as possible.

I don't give two hoots about what the Gripen has, it's irrelevant. Only the F-22 matters today. I will explain via a simple analogy down the post.

guess how we know that is not true?

What is not true, that the F-35 has no FOC yet? Even the Pentagon is lamenting that fact.

feel free to explain all the "context" in your J-20 F-22 comparisons.

Here's the analogy. Currently the F-22 and J-20 are the F-16 B30 of their respective designs, but the F-22 has B5 electronics and the J-20 has B80 electronics, meaning stuff even the US does not have.
Just show what they said. Very simple.




its not even updated! ok its upgraded but the upgrade doesn't matter!

got us!

There's literally nothing in it that counters what I said.
 
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Isn't APG 77v2 using APG 81 trm modules?

Yeah, it's more accurate to say the APG-81 uses the TRMs of v2. It's analog.

There was a major upgrade planned initially which would have given the radar a detection range of 400Km against a 1m2 target, but it was cancelled in favour of a GaN radar after 2025. This is news back from 2016 or 2017.
 
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Yeah, it's more accurate to say the APG-81 uses the TRMs of v2. It's analog.

There was a major upgrade planned initially which would have given the radar a detection range of 400Km against a 1m2 target, but it was cancelled in favour of a GaN radar after 2025. This is news back from 2016 or 2017.
So you said, "And since the F-22 came into existence, it's not received a radar upgrade and is due one soon"

F-22's radar have been upgraded since it has entered service so that means, YOU.....WERE.....WRONG! Doncha get tired of being wrong and full of yourself?
 
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So you said, "And since the F-22 came into existence, it's not received a radar upgrade and is due one soon"

F-22's radar have been upgraded since it has entered service so that means, YOU.....WERE.....WRONG! Doncha get tired of being wrong and full of yourself?

Were you dropped on the head as a baby?
 
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it is the tallest trees that are cut down first, the brightest stars that fade the soonest, and sadly the Gripen E/F's time as a 6th generation fighter lasted only a brief 5 hours, and 55 minutes. he giveth, he realize-th his error, he taketh away.

Gone but not forgotten, RIP Gripen E/F. 6th generation in our hearts. :cry:
Comment les drones collaboratifs vont-ils bouleverser le marché des avions de combat ?

How will collaborative drones disrupt the fighter aircraft market?
10 April 2023

Since its arrival on the international fighter aircraft market some 15 years ago, Lockheed-Martin's F-35 Lighting II has won the lion's share of international competitions, with firm orders from no less than 14 air forces outside the US. And the momentum shows no sign of abating, with many more countries, including five European countries (Germany, Spain, Greece, the Czech Republic and Romania), having announced their intention to acquire the aircraft in the short to medium term. In many cases, the American aircraft has won a competition with other American and European fighters, notably the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen, the European Typhoon and the Boeing Super Hornet. In all of them, the Lighting II was declared the winner, in particular because of its more recent design, but also because of its stealthiness, knowing that the political and military weight of the United States played a full role in many cases.

However, this well-established hierarchy could be called into question in a few years, with the arrival of the new so-called collaborative combat drones, which will be capable of operating alongside and for the benefit of manned combat aircraft, and which are being actively developed throughout the world, with the American and Australian Skyborg and Loyal Wingman programmes, or the European Remote Carrier. Indeed, these new devices, which will act as appendages to combat aircraft, increasing their detection and action capabilities, will profoundly change the conduct of air warfare operations, and with them the very role of combat aircraft in this future system. However, in such a scenario, the key arguments that have made the F-35 a success over the past 15 years may no longer be decisive when compared to the characteristics that other, sometimes older, aircraft, such as the Dassault Aviation Rafale, can put forward.

Collaborative drones, whether Loyal Wingmen or Remote Carrier, represent a new generation of combat drones designed to be controlled by a combat aircraft, thus extending its capabilities. Unlike current UAVs, such as MALE UAVs, these will not be remotely piloted, but simply controlled by the crew of the fighter aircraft, with the piloting function being managed by artificial intelligence. These new UAVs will be of variable size, shape and capacity, depending on their missions, and will be able to carry sensors and effectors (missiles, bombs, jammers, etc.) so as to increase the combat capabilities and tactical options of the piloted aircraft, especially since a single fighter will be able to control several of these UAVs simultaneously. It is therefore easy to understand to what extent the arrival of these new systems will revolutionise the conduct of air warfare operations, bringing them into a genuine new generation much more surely than the arrival of the famous 5th generation of combat aircraft. This transformation will also radically change the role of the fighter aircraft in this new environment, with, in the end, a redistribution of the cards in terms of the high value-added capabilities of these aircraft, which are decisive criteria both in combat and in the awarding of contracts.

Indeed, the fighter aircraft will see its primary role evolve from that of a vector to that of a coordinator. Today, a fighter aircraft is above all a centralised platform capable of receiving, transporting and deploying detection systems and munitions, whether for air superiority, strike or intelligence missions. The fighter aircraft is therefore above all a vector, which must itself be in place and in the right position to carry out its mission, which naturally exposes it to numerous threats. In fact, qualities such as stealth are very important to increase the survivability of the aircraft, and therefore its combat effectiveness. On the other hand, aeronautical qualities, such as speed, autonomy or load-carrying capacity, are less critical in the face of these high value-added capabilities. This interpretation will change profoundly with the arrival of collaborative UAVs, since it will be the UAVs, and not the aircraft itself, that will play the role of vector, and the fighter aircraft will coordinate them. In other words, the qualities that are highly valued in 5th generation aircraft will be easily and economically transposed to these drones, such as stealth, whereas the combat aircraft will have to rely on other qualities, such as great autonomy, high speed, and even the ability to carry heavy loads in the case of the Remote Carrier for example.

The second critical characteristic of a fighter aircraft to effectively control collaborative drones will naturally be the size of its crew. For the American researchers, it seems very risky today to rely on single-seat aircraft to effectively operate several of these drones around and for the benefit of a combat aircraft, as the additional cognitive load imposed on the pilot by the control of these drones is largely excessive for effective mission control. In fact, if a single-seat fighter like the F-35A or the Rafale C will be able to control one or two of these future drones simultaneously, a two-seat fighter like the Rafale B will be able to control more than twice as many, offering increased operational capabilities to both the crew and the air force that deploys it.

The third characteristic that has become indispensable for the implementation of these future UAVs is none other than the capacity of the aircraft to evolve to integrate this major evolution. In addition to the fact that aircraft will have to undergo a radical evolution in order to be able to communicate and interact effectively with these drones, the latter will be called upon to evolve much more rapidly than the combat aircraft themselves, probably at the same pace as that of fighter aircraft in the 1950s and 1960s, when a new model of fighter aircraft entered service every three or four years. To achieve this, the aircraft flown will have to demonstrate an extraordinary capacity to evolve, both to integrate these new systems and to preserve the ergonomics and efficiency of the man-machine interface.

Other qualities, such as availability and maintainability, will also take on greater weight in future analysis grids, with the arrival of combat drones, as it is likely that the operational intensity per aircraft will increase due to the reduced risk to the aircraft and its crew. But the points made here are enough to imagine how the F-35's superiority in the fighter market could be diminished in the years to come. Indeed, the stealth of the aircraft, one of its main assets, will lose much of its aura in the face of the ability to effectively operate only one or two drones due to its single-seat nature. Other aircraft, such as the Rafale B in its F5 version, will have much more valuable performance and capabilities than in the past due to developments in the air battlefield, as well as its two-seat and twin-engine configuration, its range and its speed. Above all, the Rafale's scalability, which has been amply demonstrated to date, as well as the stability of its system, will be precious assets in the face of the F-35, which is still struggling to stabilise its on-board information system, and for which each evolution represents a critical challenge.

It is therefore easy to understand how confident Dassault Aviation and the Rafale team as a whole can be about the durability of its aircraft in the years to come, to the point where it could well be that in the future, once the first MBDA Remote Carriers have been integrated into the French aircraft, the latter will be able to more than match the F-35 in any future international competition. The same will naturally apply to other models, such as the European Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen E/F, and the Boeing F-15EX, which also seems particularly well suited to controlling cooperative drones. It will be particularly interesting to observe the influence that the arrival of these UAVs, and the experience acquired in integrating them with older generation aircraft, will have on the design of 6th generation combat aircraft, such as the American NGAD, the British Tempest and the European SCAF. One may wonder about the relevance of designing these aircraft in a single-seat version, while some experts warn against this configuration for interacting and controlling these drones. One thing is certain, however, and that is that it seems essential for France not only to maintain its efforts to develop its Rafale, but also to develop, at a sustained pace, the first Remote Carrier type solutions intended to evolve with the future F5 standard, in order to accumulate as quickly as possible technical and operational expertise in this field, which is destined to become critical, both for the conduct of air warfare and for promoting the aircraft and its techno-system on the international scene.
 
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Comment les drones collaboratifs vont-ils bouleverser le marché des avions de combat ?

How will collaborative drones disrupt the fighter aircraft market?
10 April 2023

Since its arrival on the international fighter aircraft market some 15 years ago, Lockheed-Martin's F-35 Lighting II has won the lion's share of international competitions, with firm orders from no less than 14 air forces outside the US. And the momentum shows no sign of abating, with many more countries, including five European countries (Germany, Spain, Greece, the Czech Republic and Romania), having announced their intention to acquire the aircraft in the short to medium term. In many cases, the American aircraft has won a competition with other American and European fighters, notably the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen, the European Typhoon and the Boeing Super Hornet. In all of them, the Lighting II was declared the winner, in particular because of its more recent design, but also because of its stealthiness, knowing that the political and military weight of the United States played a full role in many cases.

However, this well-established hierarchy could be called into question in a few years, with the arrival of the new so-called collaborative combat drones, which will be capable of operating alongside and for the benefit of manned combat aircraft, and which are being actively developed throughout the world, with the American and Australian Skyborg and Loyal Wingman programmes, or the European Remote Carrier. Indeed, these new devices, which will act as appendages to combat aircraft, increasing their detection and action capabilities, will profoundly change the conduct of air warfare operations, and with them the very role of combat aircraft in this future system. However, in such a scenario, the key arguments that have made the F-35 a success over the past 15 years may no longer be decisive when compared to the characteristics that other, sometimes older, aircraft, such as the Dassault Aviation Rafale, can put forward.

Collaborative drones, whether Loyal Wingmen or Remote Carrier, represent a new generation of combat drones designed to be controlled by a combat aircraft, thus extending its capabilities. Unlike current UAVs, such as MALE UAVs, these will not be remotely piloted, but simply controlled by the crew of the fighter aircraft, with the piloting function being managed by artificial intelligence. These new UAVs will be of variable size, shape and capacity, depending on their missions, and will be able to carry sensors and effectors (missiles, bombs, jammers, etc.) so as to increase the combat capabilities and tactical options of the piloted aircraft, especially since a single fighter will be able to control several of these UAVs simultaneously. It is therefore easy to understand to what extent the arrival of these new systems will revolutionise the conduct of air warfare operations, bringing them into a genuine new generation much more surely than the arrival of the famous 5th generation of combat aircraft. This transformation will also radically change the role of the fighter aircraft in this new environment, with, in the end, a redistribution of the cards in terms of the high value-added capabilities of these aircraft, which are decisive criteria both in combat and in the awarding of contracts.

Indeed, the fighter aircraft will see its primary role evolve from that of a vector to that of a coordinator. Today, a fighter aircraft is above all a centralised platform capable of receiving, transporting and deploying detection systems and munitions, whether for air superiority, strike or intelligence missions. The fighter aircraft is therefore above all a vector, which must itself be in place and in the right position to carry out its mission, which naturally exposes it to numerous threats. In fact, qualities such as stealth are very important to increase the survivability of the aircraft, and therefore its combat effectiveness. On the other hand, aeronautical qualities, such as speed, autonomy or load-carrying capacity, are less critical in the face of these high value-added capabilities. This interpretation will change profoundly with the arrival of collaborative UAVs, since it will be the UAVs, and not the aircraft itself, that will play the role of vector, and the fighter aircraft will coordinate them. In other words, the qualities that are highly valued in 5th generation aircraft will be easily and economically transposed to these drones, such as stealth, whereas the combat aircraft will have to rely on other qualities, such as great autonomy, high speed, and even the ability to carry heavy loads in the case of the Remote Carrier for example.

The second critical characteristic of a fighter aircraft to effectively control collaborative drones will naturally be the size of its crew. For the American researchers, it seems very risky today to rely on single-seat aircraft to effectively operate several of these drones around and for the benefit of a combat aircraft, as the additional cognitive load imposed on the pilot by the control of these drones is largely excessive for effective mission control. In fact, if a single-seat fighter like the F-35A or the Rafale C will be able to control one or two of these future drones simultaneously, a two-seat fighter like the Rafale B will be able to control more than twice as many, offering increased operational capabilities to both the crew and the air force that deploys it.

The third characteristic that has become indispensable for the implementation of these future UAVs is none other than the capacity of the aircraft to evolve to integrate this major evolution. In addition to the fact that aircraft will have to undergo a radical evolution in order to be able to communicate and interact effectively with these drones, the latter will be called upon to evolve much more rapidly than the combat aircraft themselves, probably at the same pace as that of fighter aircraft in the 1950s and 1960s, when a new model of fighter aircraft entered service every three or four years. To achieve this, the aircraft flown will have to demonstrate an extraordinary capacity to evolve, both to integrate these new systems and to preserve the ergonomics and efficiency of the man-machine interface.

Other qualities, such as availability and maintainability, will also take on greater weight in future analysis grids, with the arrival of combat drones, as it is likely that the operational intensity per aircraft will increase due to the reduced risk to the aircraft and its crew. But the points made here are enough to imagine how the F-35's superiority in the fighter market could be diminished in the years to come. Indeed, the stealth of the aircraft, one of its main assets, will lose much of its aura in the face of the ability to effectively operate only one or two drones due to its single-seat nature. Other aircraft, such as the Rafale B in its F5 version, will have much more valuable performance and capabilities than in the past due to developments in the air battlefield, as well as its two-seat and twin-engine configuration, its range and its speed. Above all, the Rafale's scalability, which has been amply demonstrated to date, as well as the stability of its system, will be precious assets in the face of the F-35, which is still struggling to stabilise its on-board information system, and for which each evolution represents a critical challenge.

It is therefore easy to understand how confident Dassault Aviation and the Rafale team as a whole can be about the durability of its aircraft in the years to come, to the point where it could well be that in the future, once the first MBDA Remote Carriers have been integrated into the French aircraft, the latter will be able to more than match the F-35 in any future international competition. The same will naturally apply to other models, such as the European Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen E/F, and the Boeing F-15EX, which also seems particularly well suited to controlling cooperative drones. It will be particularly interesting to observe the influence that the arrival of these UAVs, and the experience acquired in integrating them with older generation aircraft, will have on the design of 6th generation combat aircraft, such as the American NGAD, the British Tempest and the European SCAF. One may wonder about the relevance of designing these aircraft in a single-seat version, while some experts warn against this configuration for interacting and controlling these drones. One thing is certain, however, and that is that it seems essential for France not only to maintain its efforts to develop its Rafale, but also to develop, at a sustained pace, the first Remote Carrier type solutions intended to evolve with the future F5 standard, in order to accumulate as quickly as possible technical and operational expertise in this field, which is destined to become critical, both for the conduct of air warfare and for promoting the aircraft and its techno-system on the international scene.

By all means let me know when france has a real wingman program. You are preaching to the choir. Both the US and AU are in real, development funded programs.

Though what this has to do with you messing yourself. With as you said, Gripen 6th gen, then demoting it to 3rd gen. Leaves me wondering?