How are you gonna get that? LM obviously updates their website.
It's based on context. He's right.
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
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How are you gonna get that? LM obviously updates their website.
It's based on context. He's right.
Yes. Now it's just 4th gen.
It's just a slightly modernised MKI. 4+ is a Russian term, makes sense for NATO to use it. 5th gen is also a Russian term.
They also have definitions for 6th and 7th gen. Like PAK DP is 7th gen.
It's normal. Which is why such terms are only used in the media or when communicating with civilians. Experts don't refer to generations.
Experts are more interested in class and roles.
Yeah, the F-22's avionics are multiple generations behind the J-20.
Are you a French descendant? You make claims like one.
Dunno about that. But you need to spend more time around experts.
I'd be happy to. Got a link to where you got this from? " the F-22's avionics are multiple generations behind the J-20."
Oh golly ! RST sups & dines with experts just like Bubba J is on first name basis with Generals Bogdan & Hostage. I'm waiting for the "kinks" to materialize.
No upgrade program has been initiated for the F-22 until recently and is yet to deliver, it's met the same fate as the MKI. Both jets were supposed to be upgraded with new AESAs around 10 years ago, but didn't happen. F-22 money was spent on the F-35, and MKI's upgrade funds were spent on the upgrades of other jets.
In the meantime, the J-20 has seen 3-4 generations of advancements. While the F-22 is still rocking an old analog narrowband GaAs radar, the equivalent of an iPhone 1 or 2, the J-20 seemingly has a digital ultrawideband GaN radar, the equivalent of an iPhone 12 or 13.
Hell, look at how slow just the HUD upgrade was, all the way in 2017.
F-22 Raptor's head-up display upgrades to digital - Military Embedded Systems
ARLINGTON, Va. U.S. Lockheed Martin officials selected BAE Systems to modernize the U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor's head-up display (HUD) by upgrading it to a full digital version.
militaryembedded.com
Pretty much every advanced jet today has a more advanced HUD. And a planned radar upgrade, a more advanced GaAs radar, was cancelled. The Teens have better radar than the F-22 today.
So--
The F-22 Is Finally Getting Some Much Needed Upgrades
The new upgrades for the F-22 have been teased both in official Air Force artworks and FY23 budget. 25 years after it entered service in the U.S. Air
theaviationist.com
The upgrades are expected to be delivered between 2026 and 2031.
Plenty of podcasts with experts around on Youtube. But most data comes out in the form of research papers from think tanks and air forces themselves, including the non-English ones.
So less articles and Twitter and more listening to experts talk.
So less articles and Twitter and more listening to experts talk.
Oh he has deep sources pops & an enviable track record to back it up in as far as his predictions go . That's not all . He's actually capable of giving you 3 perspectives on a particular product development - from the developer's PoV , the user's PoV & the lay person's PoV & still claim to not be suffering from MPD. He's said so in as many words out here .
I wouldn't mess with him if I were you. Believe me.
I wouldn't mess with him if I were you. Believe me.
What did you find in 2 minutes? Please post away.
It was all over the internet I am told, it shouldn't be difficult to find in various publications anywhere both digital and and in print I can still find things like this:
Brazil finally decides to purchase Dassault Rafale fighter planes
Brazil has agreed on a price to buy and assemble 36 Rafale fighter jets with French manufacturer Dassault after months of negotiations, a leading Brazilian newspaper reported on Thursday.
it shouldn't be difficult to find something that everyone claims is so prevalent. I am very curious to see it. please prove it. Did everyone get that claim from the LM website originally to start with? or does everyone remember "LM saying" such things elsewhere on various defense publications and other websites not to mention printed resources?
Where is this narrative marketing that was everywhere and then completely disappeared across the entire internet? LM likes to talk, shouldn't be hard to find what they said? Everyone remembers LM saying it, but no one can find LM saying it? how curious. And they only place they look is the LM website? you can't find LM statements from the time anywhere on the entire internet?
There are at last count about 17 air forces buying the F-35. 12 separate flying services have F-35s, across 9 countries. All of them are full of pilots and generals and experts and authority figures that total tens of thousands of people. several posters here including people who dislike F-35 have already posted official US sources with experts saying the F-35 is "fifth generation". and rather than "listening to experts talk" we get promises of things LM said 15 years ago that no one can actually find?
Your screenname is appropriate because you seem to just post randomly using whatever narrative is convenient at that moment before contradicting yourself on the next posts. its like a never ending treadmill of constant excuses to the point where not if you try to be logically consistent anymore.
I will put it simply. if an F-35 expert says F-35 is 5th generation will you take their word for it? or will you contradict the experts you tell us to listen to?
I agreed that Gripen E is 6th generation fighter, and that is also 20 years newer and that such things matter just as he said. I know he is French, but you don't need to carry his water. The life of a European Footstool is never as glamourous as one thinks, and the Ottomans mastered it already.
This is the same guy that thinks the J-20 is superior than F-35.
But yes just a little google and he'd find this...
And the new upgrade that just started.
The F-22 is headed for retirement, but it's getting some major upgrades first
Some of the F-22 updates and upgrades that are underway are meant to help a bridge between the Raptor and its replacement.
www.businessinsider.com
It' s not that hard to research his BS claims which tells me he's relying on peoples laziness to not check his claims.
its like you don't even bother to pay attention to your own posts anymore...
In the same post!!
The entire world's experts reference generations.
Would you like to have a little bit of Jon Lake?
Lockheed originally defined the 5th Generation as enjoying all-aspect radar stealth, supermaneouvrability (the capability of fighter aircraft to execute tactical maneouvers that are not possible with purely aerodynamic mechanisms) and super-cruise performance. When it became clear that the F-35’s super-cruise performance was marginal, different characteristics were brought into the definition, including sustained supersonic operations, high altitude capability (>50,000 feet), highly integrated avionics and sensor fusion and net enabled capabilities, but VLO stealth remained the cornerstone of Lockheed’s fifth generation definition.
Lockheed Martin’s 5th Generation
For some years, it has been assigned that only Low Observable (‘stealthy’) fighters could survive in contested airspace, and that older fighters that lacked radar stealth were, by definition, verging on obsolescence. The 5th Generation label was adopted by Lockheed Martin as a marketing term, aimed at differentiating its new stealthy F-22 and F-35 fighters from their competitors.Lockheed originally defined the 5th Generation as enjoying all-aspect radar stealth, supermaneouvrability (the capability of fighter aircraft to execute tactical maneouvers that are not possible with purely aerodynamic mechanisms) and super-cruise performance. When it became clear that the F-35’s super-cruise performance was marginal, different characteristics were brought into the definition, including sustained supersonic operations, high altitude capability (>50,000 feet), highly integrated avionics and sensor fusion and net enabled capabilities, but VLO stealth remained the cornerstone of Lockheed’s fifth generation definition.
JSF never had a Supercruising requirement, going back before LM was even picked in the JSF competition as the winner. This is a key point to understand. the part in red especially makes no sense. It would have "become clear" that F-35 or F-32 for that matter was not going to supercruise the moment JSF competition did not specify it to begin with. more to the point, before SWAT.
He is just repeating the same things. I want to see LM saying this, and preferably the time they said it. Not someone saying LM said it. sorry to be a stickler. more to the point again, "fifth generation" is not just marketing when its been officially adopted by the DoD and every other F-35 operator out there.
And I do apologize, because I said "Did everyone get that claim from the LM website originally to start with? or does everyone remember "LM saying" such things elsewhere on various defense publications and other websites not to mention printed resources?" you did provide that, I was hoping for something more along the lines of direct quotes, especially from the time. because it looks to me like Lake is just repeating the same tropes years after the fact by memory like many here. If that seems unfair or moving the goal posts It was not intended to be.
"...les Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen ou F/A-18E/F tentent de répondre à l'étappe suivante. Ces appareils, dits de quatrième génération, sont entièrement polyvalents."
"Science & Vie Nr. 207 Hors Série Aviation 99", JUIN (June) 1999, article "Chasseurs futurs polyvalents et invendables" by author Jean-Louis Prome
OCD? I simply want to see it. everyone remembers it so clearly, yet no one can find it. morbid curiosity. all farcical to begin with. and it won't change anything anyway. with any luck the French cohort here will be able to prove it. And I hope you are sitting down for this, that LM says things that are not always true, just like a lot of weapon's manufacturers who all say their widget is the best.
Semantics is important. it takes away from things like Finland and Switzerland. if we can prove that LM marketing said something, it will validate the fact that the F-35 is not a phrase everyone says is marketing anyway. this is a big sticking point even though I myself can't even see what happens even when it was proven. Pedantic is a French word, and a rose by any other name smells as sweet. I still know what Dassault means by "omnirole" even if Rafale can't do SEAD/DEAD.
even the "when" matters in the claim. Was it LM that included the F-35 into "fifth generation" or congress and the DoD? Congress already specified that JSF was going to be "next generation" so the die was cast. Congress redefined fifth generation back in 1995, 2 years before the first flight of the F-22.
Two things I want to see
LM saying what is claimed all those years ago.
The F-35 wilting like a flower the second this decades old "truth" is re-discovered and all F-35 orders canceled, because of a collapse in marketing.
in the end, since everyone can agree that "generations" will never be agreed on anyway and carries multiple definitions and characteristics all over the world, in the end the hunt and successful find of this LM marketing won't even proven anything anyway other than LM marketing exists. its a fools errand.
a stupid exercise, but so long as they want to engage in it, I would like to see the proof. The least they could do is work for it a little. The Rafale cohort wants to waste time as you point out, let them waste their own. I cut out the rest of your message, as it seems an unnecessary personal attack whomever it was directed at and also why I didn't giver a "like' not bad being called a "newbie" I suppose even with accusations of "OCD"
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It was all over the internet I am told, it shouldn't be difficult to find in various publications anywhere both digital and and in print I can still find things like this:
Brazil finally decides to purchase Dassault Rafale fighter planes
Brazil has agreed on a price to buy and assemble 36 Rafale fighter jets with French manufacturer Dassault after months of negotiations, a leading Brazilian newspaper reported on Thursday.en.mercopress.com
it shouldn't be difficult to find something that everyone claims is so prevalent. I am very curious to see it. please prove it. Did everyone get that claim from the LM website originally to start with? or does everyone remember "LM saying" such things elsewhere on various defense publications and other websites not to mention printed resources?
Where is this narrative marketing that was everywhere and then completely disappeared across the entire internet? LM likes to talk, shouldn't be hard to find what they said? Everyone remembers LM saying it, but no one can find LM saying it? how curious. And they only place they look is the LM website? you can't find LM statements from the time anywhere on the entire internet?
Servers have been refreshed many times since then, and nobody cares about storing LM's marketing claims for the long term. You are the only one flogging a dead horse.
I have no issues calling the F-35 5th gen. You are way too sensitive to criticism.Anyway, many air forces operate the F-35, but none of them have given it an FOC tag, which certifies the jet for use in a war.
Unless you understand context, how are you gonna explain anything?
Most people here already don't understand that word. It's the same with generations. An F-16 is considered 4th gen, but an F-16 B5 is easily slaughtered by a Block 30 which in turn is slaughtered by a B50 which in turn is slaughtered by a B60 which in turn is slaughtered by a B70. That's 5 generations under just the "4th gen" tag alone, but the B60 and B70 are the worst designs in the family. Tell them to explain it, they can't, 'cause they don't understand context. So what are they, 4.2nd generation, 4.4th, 4.6th, 4.8th and 4.9th? Make it make sense. Which is why experts use designations, which fit under classes and roles, and are not defined by generations.
So the B70 has better hardware than the F-35, but it still sucks. Otoh, the B30 is multiple generations behind the F-35, but it's the best F-16. So make that make sense. I doubt you can.
Each of those F-16 generations can be broken down quite easily if you know what you're talking about. This applies to pretty much any aircraft. So you may call the F-35 5th gen, but it may not be equal to the standards that applies to a different jet carrying the same tag as 5th gen and vice versa, 'cause everything is based on context and is extremely specific to a situation.
There's no one here who's been more contrarian to Picdel than me. I have argued for both the F-35 and the SH over the Rafale. But when he's right, he's right. The problem with you is as long as you remove that stick up your *censored* and start asking questions to understand where he was speaking from rather than blowing your top off, you would have actually learnt something, instead you are trying to become Ignorants' successor and are almost there.
its like you don't even bother to pay attention to your own posts anymore...
In the same post!!
The entire world's experts reference generations.
Context...
@Ashwin we need a faceplam emoji.
The first 2 posts literally carry the same meaning. The F-22 needs upgrades and it was started initially, to be delivered from 2026 onwards. So it's still flying with old stuff TODAY.
The last post refers to a subsystem, not a fighter jet itself. That's why you gotta understand the meaning of the word "context". Life becomes easier if you actually understand for the sake of understanding and not use your mouth as an exhaust port.
No, no, he wants an official "Lockheed Martin" source, with "classified" written at the bottom of the Powerpoint slide.