The rafale and typhoon are the only 4th gen planes that can supercruise with missile load at 1.4m
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
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physics is going to say otherwise, there are certain factors that no one can really escape.
The Rafale in particular is suspect because its the only sub mach 2 airplane I have seen ever attempt to claim Supercruise. Which is of course not really the very rare actual supercruise that F-22 is optimized for and a only a few others can really achieve in a sustainable way. if Rafale is doing its low level work as was described earlier its definitely not supercruising, to say nothing of the additional wear on the engines, and a lack of fuel economy.
remember that supercruise saves fuel in that an afterburner is not required, but at the same time its still a high power setting and not optimized for range. When F-22s need distance they stay subsonic at lower throttle settings.
EJ200 is limited to Mach 1.3 without reheat, it would take serious design changes to make these claims anything more than a "we did it once, and then declared it supercruise" Which is what most of this stuff is. for a bunch of people who always complain about Marketing when it comes to aircraft generations, so many fall for the very obvious stuff from everyone else.
Rafales are not going to engage in a regular kind of supercruise at all on any kind of regular basis. for F-22 its standard tactics, for the everyone else there is going to be about 10 different *astericks* assigned to how the "Supercruise was achieved-- typically very briefly, with light loads, at high altitudes, on rare occasions.
I will point out once more that the only sub mach 2 supercruiser in all the world is the Rafale which is frankly not believable, and seems utterly strange that it would keep up with the Typhoon even at Mach 1.4, and of course reach its top speed at just mach 1.8. It is worth nothing that F-22 Supercruise at about mach 1.5, and Mach 1.6 that have been disclosed but I have seen higher numbers.
in summary, true supercruisers, are flying at or near the Rafale's top speed as a matter of routine, while those who attempt to imitate f-22 are magically flying engines well beyond normal specifications on rare and special occasions, because anything else would see a drastic and violent increase in engine problems and catastrophic failures, to say nothing of the fact that most of these "Supercruisers" are being made by test and not regular pilots. F414 is simply not built or optimized for Supercruising. its a tough engine, but its not going to be able to sustain it on a regular basis without damage to the engine. even comparing Rafale to Typhoon, I presume Typhoon has the edge. Reports of Rafale being underpowered. etc. the latest M88s are designed not for speed or supercruise but for longevity, and supercruise ruins that.
its really the engines and intakes that determine this ability overall not the airframe nearly as much. it puts a lot of heat and stress on the engines. Aircraft that actually supercruise tend to be designed to do so, and the engines are designed and optimized for that kind of work. Look at the original ATF specifications, the F119 etc. The F-22s ability to supercruise was not some wonderful accident, it took a lot of work and design to achieve that. Concorde will have the exact same story. Diving a 747 unit it breaks mach 1 is not the same thing, sorry.
"every ship can be a minesweeper once" the engines are very much the same way. Every engine can do supercruise if you don't mind wrecking the engine. M88 was never designed to supercruise. none of these engines were designed for that. All of them are products of the 1980s and 1990s before F-22 made Super cruise a "marketing must" in Europe. Ironically of course the one aircraft not claiming supercruise is the F-35, other than what Tom Burbage said years back, which is the same kind of "super cruise" everyone can do with all the "exceptions" built in.
Let's hope hlft-42 becomes a reality.Leave supercruise man! We do not have a IJT
@HAL!!! HAL!!!!
HAL!!! YOU BLOODY TOOK OUR MONEY !!! WHERE IS OUR IJT!!! WHY NO IJT IN 23 YEARS!!!! GIVE ME MY IJT FOR IAF OR RETURN THE MONEY!!!
Nice but I was talking about 4th gen planes. I do know the f-22 is the only fifth gen capable of supercruise at mach 1.8. The Russians claim the su-57 will have supercruise with item 30 so that will be two fifth gen planes.
Being in combat and becoming combat proven are not the same. Mike Tyson punching you in a street fight doesn't make you a pro boxer.
The Su-57 has seen combat too.
Both achieve their goals via different designs is the point.
Bombing ISIS or Iran's proxy soldiers doesn't teach you how to fight the Chinese. In any case, in just a few years, the US is gonna have to prove their way of war in a real war.
Here, Let Me Google That For You
Passive-aggressively teach your friends how to Google. For all those people who find it more convenient to ask you rather than search it themselves. Not associated with Google.googlethatforyou.com
Yes, that's a good start, good job. Now keep on keepin' on.
Don't be mean. Social media likes is all these froggy Rafail fanboys have let them live in denial for as long as possible... the longer the denial the sweeter the reality slap will be.
It would have been funny. To watch the rafale fanboys make multiple votes, to get to 35.000. It would have taken them hours. Or better still, they colluded on forums to rally the troops. Did you know there are 1.5 billion indians?Don't be mean. Social media likes is all these froggy Rafail fanboys have let them live in denial for as long as possible... the longer the denial the sweeter the reality slap will be.
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Why Stealth F-35 Fighter Sales Are ‘Exploding’
European countries have been buying the F-35 so fast that even the 5th-generation aircraft’s strongest advocates may be a bit surprised. The multi-national coalition of Joint Strike Fighters has exploded in just the last few years.
European countries have been buying the F-35 so fast that even the 5th-generation aircraft’s strongest advocates may be a bit surprised. The multi-national coalition of Joint Strike Fighters has exploded in just the last few years.
Switzerland, Finland, and Germany are just a few of the European countries now helping build a coalition of 5th-generation allies across the continent, which also, of course, includes the UK, Denmark, Belgium, Poland, and Italy.
Share the Flight
Clearly, this introduces a number of potentially unprecedented tactical implications, such as the ability for European allies to collectively form truly massive F-35 formations to achieve and sustain air supremacy, conduct Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance (ISR) and share targeting and threat information.Sharing target data, for instance, is of particular relevance given the often discussed Multi-Function Data Link (MADL) unique to the F-35, which enables continuous, secure, and high-speed data transmission between all F-35s regardless of country. This means that of course not only will F-35s operate with a collective ability to exchange targeting specifics but also function as “nodes” across meshed ISR formations. Specifically, F-35 sensors and computing bring a “drone”-like surveillance capability, which when combined with networking through MADL, can transmit time-sensitive intelligence data, images, and video across otherwise disparate formations of F-35s.
Given that F-35s operate with ever-evolving Mission Data Files, described as an onboard computer library of threat specifics, JSFs from different countries can both “Identify” and “transmit” exact threat details and verifications across joint force formations.
Yet another advantage to this kind of large-scale expansion of F-35 nations is, simply put, it enables an ability to “mass” airpower in support of air supremacy missions. Larger numbers of aircraft increase the ability to penetrate otherwise denied or high-risk airspace and use stealth and speed to elude and destroy enemy air defenses. In the event of a large-scale air war effort, or a fast-emerging need to counter an approaching enemy ground incursion, a sizable, multinational and networked collective of F-35s could optimize needed attack operations across a wide envelope of operations.
Growing Network of F-35s
Logistics and sustainment also figure prominently in this equation, as the larger the F-35 force is across the continent, the easier and faster it becomes to strengthen and maintain the supply chain. Not only will there be common parts, but also more opportunities to repair, upgrade, or even modernize the jet moving into future years.This brings the question of “modernization” to mind, as part of the F-35’s appeal may simply relate to the Pentagon’s plans for continuous modernization and upgrade possibilities for the F-35 as it surges into future decades. The Pentagon’s intent is to fly the F-35 into the 2070s through a “continuous” modernization program using software upgrades, weapons systems interface enhancements, new computing, and the ability to accommodate new weapons as they emerge.
This plan, which relies to a large extent upon continued software modernization, is quite significant, given that many near-term technological breakthroughs or “disruptive” innovations are likely to arrive in the areas of computing, mission systems, sensing, and other high-performance areas not necessarily related to a need to rebuild or change the basic external configuration or design of the aircraft itself.
The F-35, which is now almost an entirely different aircraft its original commission due to weapons and software upgrades, is a trend that could continue into future decades. The hope is to ensure the F-35 remains dominant and relevant 40 years from now.
Why F-35 Fighter Sales are 'Exploding'
The F-35, which is now almost an entirely different aircraft from its original commission due to weapons and software upgrades, is a trend that could continue into future decades.
www.19fortyfive.com
But... but Raj said the F-35 is a total flop and he's as wise as ganesha.
Polish F-35 Deliveries Delayed [EXCLUSIVE]
Polish F-35A jets coming from the 2026 and 2027 lots would be delivered later than originally planned, we have found out from our sources close to the defence industry. During his recent visit to the US, PM Mateusz Morawiecki requested an accelerated delivery of the 5th generation MRCA for Poland.
defence24.com
The frigate La Fayette – whose superstructure is uniquely designed to minimise its radar cross-section – faced the challenge of tracking the stealthy F-35As over the Timor Sea.
Inside La Fayette’s combat information centre, the operations officer Lieutenant Fabrice oversaw the interoperability activity with the F-35As.
“The French Navy have little occasion to work with the F-35A platform. Their participation enabled our team to test their equipment and ability to detect fast jet aircraft,” Lieutenant Fabrice said.
“The training was very realistic with a lot of outcomes for all our operators and for our cadets who are learning how to operate safely during a complex activity within an international context.”
Inside La Fayette’s combat information centre, the operations officer Lieutenant Fabrice oversaw the interoperability activity with the F-35As.
“The French Navy have little occasion to work with the F-35A platform. Their participation enabled our team to test their equipment and ability to detect fast jet aircraft,” Lieutenant Fabrice said.
“The training was very realistic with a lot of outcomes for all our operators and for our cadets who are learning how to operate safely during a complex activity within an international context.”
You are getting desperate when this is the worst you can find. they have to wait their turnPolish F-35 Deliveries Delayed [EXCLUSIVE]
Polish F-35A jets coming from the 2026 and 2027 lots would be delivered later than originally planned, we have found out from our sources close to the defence industry. During his recent visit to the US, PM Mateusz Morawiecki requested an accelerated delivery of the 5th generation MRCA for Poland.
"During his recent visit to the US, PM Mateusz Morawiecki requested an accelerated delivery of the 5th generation MRCA for Poland.
the deliveries of the Polish F-35, at least some of them, would be delayed. When it comes to the delivery of 6 aircraft planned for 2026, the initial plans assumed that delivery would begin in March, and end in June. The current schedule assumes that the deliveries would happen in November and December 2026. Another four jets previously expected to be delivered in early 2027 are now expected to be handed off in late 2027.
Lockheed Martin Warns it Can’t Produce as Many F-35s in 2023: Modernisation Setbacks Add to Years of Delays
The world’s largest defence manufacturing firm Lockheed Martin has warned that it will be unable to meet previous targets for production of the F-35 fifth generation
militarywatchmagazine.com
And also for belgium :
air-cosmos.com
Léger retard pour les F-35 belges
La Belgique devait recevoir à la fin de l'année 2023 ses quatre premiers F-35A. Cependant, d'après Belga, seuls deux Lightning II seront livrés cette année. Les deux autres seraient prévus pour le début de l'année 2024. Ce retard s'explique notamment par les précédents retards sur d'autres...
air-cosmos.com
Being combat proven means passing many real life tests, weapons handling, sortie generation, improvisation etc. F-15s never fought the USSR either. most weapon systems are never tested in the ultimate test, which is a good thing considering that most fighters designed for the 1970s an 1980s had to have nuclear weapons considerations. we will never know if an F-16 is truly tested until it lobs a B61 into Vladimir's tea cup.
funny how bombing libyans counts so much. on one hand we have a 6th generation fighter the Rafale of France, on the other hand we have the US which has been in near constant state of warfare for over 30 years straight. Since Rafale fought in Libya, its proven, but for the US (what would they know about combat?) the F-35 and their combat experiences mean nothing of course.
or was libya a "real war"? How is the Rafale combat proven but the F-35 is not even when they have actually operated over some of the same places like Syria?
when did 6th generation Rafale confront Mike Tyson?
it will be great to watch you do this for every single F-35 country every time as if it was new each time. Always a sad day when supply can't meet such high demand.
Once one european fighter declared "supercruise" the other 2 Europeans simply had no choice but to declare it too. of the 3 european fighters, Gripen, Rafale, and Typhoon all claim supercruise this is of course thanks to the F-22 raising the standard to an unbearable degree they can't match.
Ironically the only fighters that don't supercruise (haha) are the Super Hornet and F-35. Both of which never attempted to say otherwise. F-18 EF and F-35 can't supercruise, but they relieve themselves of being pretenders and posers.
we are then left with a false narrative mainly constructed by the French themselves about supercruise and 5th generation all of whom remember LM saying it, but none of them can find LM actually saying it? how curious. its like one french man just says he heard it from another french man. under such "truths" we labor. when we ask to see LM saying that, they suddenly come up empty.
step 1 was walling themselves off against the Eurofighter consortium after the breakup. Then step 2. they walled themselves off again with the F-35 and created an echo chamber where they all feed off one another. Theres a reason bonplan can't find any proof of what he claims LM "said" he can't even remember where he heard it of course. There is a reason again why we got a narrative posted by another frenchman that just repeated the same false narrative again! of rewritten history. Maybe LM did say this, but I have never seen it outside mainly French people repeating it.
Not anything like real evidence, but this is worth noting an aviation forum from 2003 that says the F-35 won't supercruise. it was common knowledge that the French are attempting to rewrite:
basic aviation students knew F-35 was no supercruiser 20 years ago, and was not required or designed to be. Then the French echo chamber attempted to rewrite history. The US was open. F-22 could supercruise, F-35 and F-18EF could not, and we never pretended. The European fighters had to "keep up appearances" and here we are. none of the engines in these fighters was designed for supercruise. the intakes would have to be redesigned as well. an actual supercruise designed Rafale would look very different, and allah be praised may actually be capable of Mach 2, like the other 6th generation fighter Gripen E.
it wasn't until the F-35 won in Switzerland, and many French fanboys could no longer ignore reality. (although some continue to do so) impressive work on internet twitter polls, finest fighter to ever lose to the Gripen in Brazil. Truly a world beating 6th generations superfighter overall. other than all the times its loses, its great. its almost like there is a wide gulf between all the marketing the French believe like its mother's milk poured in from France herself, versus what everyeone else "discovers" about Rafale.
Rafale is good but its not a superfighter, and the bad news for Rafale is that it is relatively easy to imitate. the funniest thing about the supercruise obsession is the F-35 openly is not a supercruiser, and no one thinks much of it except the French who think that such a thing matters and it will hopefully make them more like the American F-22.
Time makes them operationally proven, not combat proven. The F-15 is still combat proven, since it did bring down Mig-29s and such, even if the jets themselves were a generation behind.
The F-22 is operationally proven. In fact, the Su-57 managed to get a kill first.
The way the Rafale accomplished its mission was unique and never done before, hence combat proven. Libya became an advertisement for the Rafale.
And it uses time-tested tactics to accomplish missions, whereas the F-22/F-35 way of combat is relatively very new and has never been tested against a capable enough adversary. For example, if the adversary is capable of bringing down the Teens, and the F-35 is able to beat the adversary, so even if they are a generation behind, it's enough to prove combat capability.
I'm not saying the F-35 cannot do what they have claimed it can do, all I'm saying is they haven't proven it yet. In fact, this capability has not been proven to the Pentagon even in a simulated environment, which is necessary to allow full rate production, never mind in the real world, so forget about combat proven. It's still unclear when the F-35 will prove itself in the JSE, or perhaps it will have to prove itself over Taiwan instead.
Going back to the example of the Su-57 getting its first kill, it doesn't prove inferiority or superiority of the F-22, it's simply a state of being. And it most definitely is very important regardless of how much experience one has. In fact, experience is why the combat-proven tag is important. It means a commander is confident enough that he can send the jet into battle. If the jet is not combat proven, he will actually send an inferior jet to do an important mission, even if the inferior squadron suffers more losses, until the superior jet proves itself during the course of the war and the commander gains the confidence necessary to rely on it for important missions. The F-35 is still a long ways away from that.