Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

We need an unbiased market. India is one of them.
You mean to tell me that some of those famously awful soviet fighters you procured were based on meritocracy? :confused:

I don't blame india for not wanting to buy the F-16 because it is associated with pakistan, but that only exposes an Indian bias. The F-16 was out of the running from the start in India because of the Pakistani connection. Theoretically the F-16 could have been the best fit, but it could not be chosen no matter what. There has to be biases, sorry to inform you.
 
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@randomradio

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He's exposing you bruh! I mean we've all exposed you one way or another but Panzer is doing it very soft and nice which is worse than what we've done.
 
@randomradio

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He's exposing you bruh! I mean we've all exposed you one way or another but Panzer is doing it very soft and nice which is worse than what we've done.

it is not difficult when one pretends to be a passive messenger (argues on merit of course) one minute and says "that is not me saying it! or the French --but the USAF itself!"

And then I say "oh very good passive messenger! but why did you not deliver the entire message? why did you only decide to share a part of the message?"

And then before our eyes we watch the "passive messenger" morph into the arbiter of what is real or not, what should be published or not. what the USAF says vs what the USAF is advertising! what quotes should be shown and which should be hidden-- ahh the true colors show, and alas he was never a passive messenger at all, but a specific filter all along! and of course he never corrects his friends when they let us say "embellish"
Yes, but you're not counting the F-35s that have been grounded because they're undergoing maintenance. Aircraft are over-used in times of crisis, but this is already the case for the F-35 while the US is at peace! Their objective is to fly the F-35 for 200 hours a year, but they can't manage more than 150-160 hours.

The Rafale, on the other hand, flies 250 hours a year and can go up to 1000 hours a year and even 350 hours for a month in "Surge" mode.

Remember that a combat aircraft is only useful when it flies.

Gripen talking points. again.
 
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You mean to tell me that some of those famously awful soviet fighters you procured were based on meritocracy? :confused:
That was the price for being under the Soviet umbrella. And that umbrella protected us from being attacked by both US and UK in 1971 and you can bet that we haven't forgotten that.
I don't blame india for not wanting to buy the F-16 because it is associated with pakistan, but that only exposes an Indian bias. The F-16 was out of the running from the start in India because of the Pakistani connection. Theoretically the F-16 could have been the best fit, but it could not be chosen no matter what. There has to be biases, sorry to inform you.
Multiple reasons:

1. PAF operates it.

2. Failed to meet IAF criteria of ITR/STR and other performance related ones.

3. IAF always wanted first Mirage-2000 and then Rafale as MMRCA winner. F-16 sadly is no match to it.
 
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That was the price for being under the Soviet umbrella. And that umbrella protected us from being attacked by both US and UK in 1971 and you can bet that we haven't forgotten that.

Multiple reasons:

1. PAF operates it.

2. Failed to meet IAF criteria of ITR/STR and other performance related ones.

3. IAF always wanted first Mirage-2000 and then Rafale as MMRCA winner. F-16 sadly is no match to it.

we agree that is precisely my point. India is a biased market. India is allowed to be biased, but its takes a degree of naivety to claim India is a not biased free market as randomradio claims. and when I say naivety I mean not only him believing such a silly thing, but the idea that the rest of us are just as naïve and would actually believe him.
 
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ANd that's the report :
There are two problems :
1 - Fly by wire has lost its efficiency
"The recovery of the crash survivable memory unit (CSMU) accurately captured all relevant information to the cause of the mishap. While the MA mission data recordings were not available for review due to damage sustained in the post impact fire of the MA, flight member mission recordings were available. CSMU data analysis and integrity checks demonstrated that: 1) the flight control system operated as designed; 2) the Air Data System (ADS) hardware and its associated firmware performed as designed; and 3) the propulsion system operated nominally and without issues throughout the flight. In addition to CSMU data and formation member mission recordings, I relied on witness interviews and simulator reenactment to reach an evidence-based causal conclusion. F-35A, T/N 15-5197, 19 October 2022 30 I find by a preponderance of the evidence the cause of the mishap was the MA departed controlled flight due to ADS errors immediately prior to landing in which there was no opportunity to recover to controlled flight. I find by a preponderance of the evidence one significantly contributing factor to the mishap: the MP did not increase landing spacing from preceding aircraft in accordance with wake turbulence procedures."

2 - The pilot could not recover for example by choosing an emergency mode and disconnect the main mode.

The second one seem to me more serious since it's a misconception.
re-read your post very slowly. I have highlighted the significant contradiction in yellow to aide you. even if there was an "emergency" mode that disconnects from the "Main mode" (???) it may not have mattered at all.

I have highlighted in bold green the violation of procedure that lead to the loss of the ADS that caused the aircraft to lose control and then crash

The pilot in; violation of procedure, flew too close to another aircraft and experienced wake turbulence that essentially "broke" the flight sensors (ADS here) that modern aircraft rely on to maintain computer assisted flight. in the report you posted, they specifically point out that this has never happened before in over 600,000 flight hours. your conclusion is that the fly by wire system doesn't work, while also posting "1) the flight control system operated as designed;"
 
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we agree that is precisely my point. India is a biased market. India is allowed to be biased, but its takes a degree of naivety to claim India is a not biased free market as randomradio claims. and when I say naivety I mean not only him believing such a silly thing, but the idea that the rest of us are just as naïve and would actually believe him.
Slowly we are buying more and more stuff from US. It takes time to build trust. India is more "independent" than simply biased. We like to do things our way. Russians sold us a super plane like MKI when they were themselves operating Su-27s and Mig-29s. Look at Brahmos partnership. French allowed us to tinker with Mirage-2000 in middle of the war.

But biggest thing is that Russia, France and Israel did not ban us after our Nuke test like US. Panzer, you got to understand that old Indo/US ties were very bitter. Only after Clinton's visit in early 2000s things started to change for good.

I understand the frustrations of our American friends like you and others, but give it some time; Indo/US relationship in on the right path. Transition is the essenns of command, but 't does take time. Have patience.
 
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In a 1 vs 1 head on fight between Rafale and F-35, what kind of kill exchange ratio can we expect? I disagree with @randomradio about 9:1 kill ratio in favour of F-35. I think 6:4 would be fair enough! What say?

Rafale's RCS is not low enough to defeat the F-35 in 1v1, the difference is still at least 100 times. But the difference diminishes in 2v1, 2v2 etc. Basically needs collaborative efforts to defeat stealth. By 2030, both jets would be on par, with the Rafale retaining superior anti-air performance and the F-35 superior ground strike performance. Both can compensate for differences with drones.
 
Yes, but you're not counting the F-35s that have been grounded because they're undergoing maintenance. Aircraft are over-used in times of crisis, but this is already the case for the F-35 while the US is at peace! Their objective is to fly the F-35 for 200 hours a year, but they can't manage more than 150-160 hours.

The Rafale, on the other hand, flies 250 hours a year and can go up to 1000 hours a year and even 350 hours for a month in "Surge" mode.

Remember that a combat aircraft is only useful when it flies.

That's 'cause you are comparing prototypes with an established jet. By 2030 or so, the F-35 will more or less catch up, minus however they circumvent issues relating to their just-in-time logistics.
 
Rafale's RCS is not low enough to defeat the F-35 in 1v1, the difference is still at least 100 times. But the difference diminishes in 2v1, 2v2 etc. Basically needs collaborative efforts to defeat stealth. By 2030, both jets would be on par, with the Rafale retaining superior anti-air performance and the F-35 superior ground strike performance. Both can compensate for differences with drones.
In-reality, it's seldom 1 vs 1 in a BVR fight. More like one formation vs the other.

F-35 flies in very wide formations unlike 4th gen planes. No idea about how Rafale does it though!
 
people here are convinced the US does everything short of putting a gun to the heads of its allies in order to do anything to sell F-35s

Actually, yes. It depends on the amount of leverage and the desperation of the other side. That's how both the SU and US sold to friendly countries. It's very likely why we couldn't produce M2000s in the 80s due to pressure from the SU. We bought a lot of Migs instead, and in the process they helped out with our space program.

The US has actively worked against the Rafale in many countries even when they did not participate or were kicked out of contests. They tie it to loans and other favours. Which is also why 100% of Rafale's customers are all countries that are more serious than other air forces, 'cause they actually need the capability for deterrence and warfighting, not just air policing.
 
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my brother, that is not the way that works! On one hand you said the "USAF says" and then when the USAF said something else that contradicted your world view you said they were not credible and emotionally bursted out that the previously credible people were now "advertising"

you may "prefer" to argue based on merit, but what you prefer and what happens are clearly not the same thing. Anyone can see the double standard you are employing.

anything I want to hear is the truth, anything I don't want to hear is advertising. Very good my friend! a very logical and merit based arguement on display again!

One is an advertisement that's not quantifiable. "It's the best". "No match elsehwere". Just bragging points.

The criticisms are quantifiable. "Engine too hot". "Fusion doesn't work".

Lets do a little critical thinking test. since you are a man who thinks yes? Like you analyse and don't just believe whatever you hear? You talk about "on paper" yes let us talk about the "paper" and what is on it compared to reality.

are you ready?

On paper the F-35 is not FOC. They build 150 per year. The Rafale is built around 36 per year. at the end of the year there will be around 1000 F-35s.
but remember! the paper says its not in full production, silly! even though its built at a 400 percent higher rate than the Rafale, which mind you has been operational since 2004. why? because the French said it was ready enough, and so in it went. no need for bombs, no need for a JSE, AAMs are enough! 2 years later add the bombs to Rafale with F2-- 25 years later add the SEAD!

Meanwhile in America, the F-35 can't be "fully operational" until the F-35 passes a "Joint simulated environment" That no aircraft before the F-35, and no aircraft after the F-35 will have to pass. The F-22 didn't have to pass JSE, and the F-15EX won't have to pass JSE, both will be "fully operational" without it. HMM!!! but the F-35 does need to pass JSE! Why? Because the paper says so! it can't be fully operational until that! why? because we say so. by any other previous or future standard the F-35 would be considered fully operational years ago and the block 4 Software like F4 upgrade for Rafale would be in the same category; something added later to improve what is already in operation. Rather than saying the F-35 is "in development" for 27 years, while its flying all over the world in operational squadrons and even participating in wars. The Rafale won't have SEAD capability until 2031. 27 years after it was first declared operational. The Australians are not requiring JSE to declare FOC. They will declare their F-35s (which are not block 4) FOC later this year. So what is stopping the Americans?


paperwork says so! Ah of course! While Australia can say "great mate, we are ready!" the Americans must continue to slog through a bunch of self set and arbitrary rules that can't be achieved in any meaningful way. not because the F-35 is terrible, but because the standards are different and higher than any other aircraft in the world, even among other F-35 operators. the F-35 is supposed to be at a ready rate of 80 percent. it fails this. but every US fighter fails this metric as well. one should wonder why. why when no other fighter is ever making 80 percent readiness, they decided to try such a goal with the F-35, the most sophisticated aircraft in the arsenal? Even Gripens can struggle to maintain 80 percent.

The Rafale was fielded in block I with no air to ground capability and declared operational. If the F-35 followed the Rafales example it could have been declared operational in the early 2010s as soon as the AMRAAM capability was cleared. If the F-35 followed the F-22s example it would have been cleared FOC long ago same for Rafale. even you my friend admit the stealth alone gives it a massive advantage from the start.

in summary.

>The F-35 is built at a rate of 150 per year-- but it is not in full rate production

>The F-35 flies in operational squadrons all over the world in real wars-- but it is not operational and still in development "on paper"

>F-35 needs block 4 or else-- but Its the worlds most dominating 5th generation fighter according to the same source

>The F-35 needs to be block 4 to be fully operational, but other F-35 operators are declaring FOC without it.

>27 years later the F35 is not operational, except when it is.

>F-35 must pass a simulator to be FOC, nothing else has to pass such a simulation. but I guess we thought of the idea, so now we have to go through with it to the bitter end?

try and explain how even though 150+ F-35s being built each year, and a new one rolls of the assembly line every 60 hours. the paper says not "full rate production" on an assembly line that dwarves every other fighter. and you pretending to be smart then dutifully parrot this line without actually looking at what is taking place. not realizing that the words and actions don't match.

if you want to talk about "on paper" vs reality. then open your mind up a little bit and look around. If there was some paper that said no F-35 could be declared fully operational until painted pink, you would quickly tell me that the F-35 is not ready until you see a pink one! why? because the paper says so! its not me saying it! but the Americans? Why are you so quick to dismiss some Americans, and then on the other hand say "well the Americans said so, that means its the truth. have you actually stepped back?

"150 aircraft a year by any other name would smell just as sweet" -- William Shakespeare. we would think at one point the Americans would stop going through such silly exercises.

At what point my brother, would you say that what is "on paper" is not what is happening? but not the way you propose.

Think about it for a little bit. Then think about it a little more. and then look again. by the Rafale standard and any other standard F-35 would be declared Fully operational without JSE just like every other airplane in the world. But the Americans have delibrately painted themselves into an impossible position on paper. So what do they do? they ignore the papers while talking about how important all the papers are.

THINK.

The F-35's production run is a mistake, already admitted by the US.

The JSE is critical to the F-35, as is their new ODIN. Other fighter programs were sensible enough not to depend on digital testing and training to that extent. But the F-35 cannot succeed without it clearing JSE, not because it a choice, but a compulsion. The only alternative is to fight a real war with a peer adversary, but that's just sending an untested aircraft into battle. And any deficiencies found won't be corrected quickly enough.

The F-35 recently crashed due to a glitch in the FBW for example. So it's not ready even for real world conditions. Also you gotta understand that operational F-35s are still flying with restrictions. And as Picdel has pointed out, there are issues with ground maintenance as well.

Just mass producing prototypes doesn't mean there's confidence in the aircraft. Since you say you have critical thinking skills, would you buy a car that spends more time in the garage than on the road?

Why can't you just admit you were wrong, my friend?


it only hurts your own credibility and continues to make you appear fraudulent and not credible, what is worse is that it is so obvious and you think you are hidden. it is ok. There is a lot to remember, you will make mistakes. I'm sorry egypt is not the slam dunk point you thought it was.

You can't capture a 300 fighter air force with 1 squadron.

I see French numbers going up in Egypt, not American. And the Egyptians had approached the Americans first.
 
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You mean to tell me that some of those famously awful soviet fighters you procured were based on meritocracy? :confused:

I don't blame india for not wanting to buy the F-16 because it is associated with pakistan, but that only exposes an Indian bias. The F-16 was out of the running from the start in India because of the Pakistani connection. Theoretically the F-16 could have been the best fit, but it could not be chosen no matter what. There has to be biases, sorry to inform you.

During the Cold War, Soviet jets weren't bought through competitions, those were strategic deals. They came with ToT, paid for in rice and aid, Soviet assistance in military and space programs etc.

So we would buy a Soviet jet, and alongside that we would hold a competition for Western jets. Similarly, in the 90s, we bought the MKI and held a competition for Rafale, Typhoon etc. The competitions involving Western jets are fair and transparent. We saw the same between Rafale and SH recently.

In fact, to compensate for the inadequacies in Soviet tech, the IAF had to focus on the best jet they could get from Western sources. Hence the British Jaguar (beating Mirage V and Viggen) and the Rafale.
it is not difficult when one pretends to be a passive messenger (argues on merit of course) one minute and says "that is not me saying it! or the French --but the USAF itself!"

And then I say "oh very good passive messenger! but why did you not deliver the entire message? why did you only decide to share a part of the message?"

And then before our eyes we watch the "passive messenger" morph into the arbiter of what is real or not, what should be published or not. what the USAF says vs what the USAF is advertising! what quotes should be shown and which should be hidden-- ahh the true colors show, and alas he was never a passive messenger at all, but a specific filter all along! and of course he never corrects his friends when they let us say "embellish"

You shouldn't confuse advertisement with facts.
 
we agree that is precisely my point. India is a biased market. India is allowed to be biased, but its takes a degree of naivety to claim India is a not biased free market as randomradio claims. and when I say naivety I mean not only him believing such a silly thing, but the idea that the rest of us are just as naïve and would actually believe him.

History shows that the French Mirage V is the better strike fighter of its generation, but we chose the British Jaguar 'cause it was twin-engine and it won the technical part of the contest and was cheaper. Similarly, the Typhoon won MMRCA, but the govt picked Rafale 'cause it was 25% cheaper. The Typhoon winning shows there's no bias. I don't know where Rajput got the idea that the IAF was biased towards the Rafale when they themselves scored the Typhoon above it.

Even after the evaluations, it took the French quite a bit of convincing from their side that the govt made the better decision. So they brought their Rafales to India to show it off in the Garud 5 exercises.

Involving participation from four Rafale...

During the exercise, participants are expected to perform multiple missions, including close combat engagement of large forces, slow mover safety, as well as protection and engagement of high-value aerial assets at the strategic airbase located near Indo-Pak border.

The exercise will primarily focus on air to air refuelling, basic and advanced fighter interceptions, protection of high-value aerial targets and group combat manoeuvring, according to the officials.


The M2000 and Mig-29 were bought in panic in response to PAF's F-16s, 'cause at the time US advertisement peddled it to be some magic aircraft with RSS + FBW etc. Those were not tenders.
 
At my little friend Herciv.
SpazSinbad
From the USAF Mishap Report: “e. Understanding Wake Turbulence - Every aircraft generates wake turbulence while in flight. Wake turbulence is a function of an aircraft producing lift, resulting in the formation of two counter-rotating vortices trailing behind the aircraft. Wake turbulence from an aircraft can affect other aircraft due to the strength, duration, and direction of the vortices. Pilots should always be aware of the possibility of a wake turbulence encounter when flying through the wake of another aircraft and adjust the flight path accordingly.

Wake turbulence procedures at Hill AFB are intended to reduce the likelihood of following aircraft from entering wake turbulence vortices with the primary danger being an unexpected rolling motion close to the ground due to flight within the vortex, not because of an impact to the air data system of the F-35. Most F-35 pilots interviewed for this investigation and the accident investigation board’s F-35A Pilot Member, regularly experience wake turbulence while flying the aircraft. The F-35 has over 600,000 flight hours and this is the first known occurrence of wake turbulence having a catastrophic impact on the Air Data System.” https://www.afjag.af.mil/Portals/77/...B%20Report.pdf (3.2Mb)

waketurbulencef_35acrashreport_567b25322785ee1845ebe1ee829be3440a9a5531.gif
 
re-read your post very slowly. I have highlighted the significant contradiction in yellow to aide you. even if there was an "emergency" mode that disconnects from the "Main mode" (???) it may not have mattered at all.

I have highlighted in bold green the violation of procedure that lead to the loss of the ADS that caused the aircraft to lose control and then crash

The pilot in; violation of procedure, flew too close to another aircraft and experienced wake turbulence that essentially "broke" the flight sensors (ADS here) that modern aircraft rely on to maintain computer assisted flight. in the report you posted, they specifically point out that this has never happened before in over 600,000 flight hours. your conclusion is that the fly by wire system doesn't work, while also posting "1) the flight control system operated as designed;"
Herciv and Pic, take a headline, make up their own story. That is at odds with what is written.. It keeps them quiet, so they don't annoy their mothers.
The wake separation from 3,000 to 9,000ft was a base order for all aircraft. It was because of the weather conditions. Normal days are also the same 3,000ft for all aircraft. It has nothing to do with the qualities of the f-35
 
the Typhoon won MMRCA

Both Typhoon and Rafale cleared all criteria regarding MMRCA. But Rafale was chosen because of being L1.
, but the govt picked Rafale 'cause it was 25% cheaper. The Typhoon winning shows there's no bias. I don't know where Rajput got the idea that the IAF was biased towards the Rafale when they themselves scored the Typhoon above it.
IAF always wanted 126 Mirage-2000 post Kargil and not MMRCA tender. It was the GOI which forced them to start the tender. M-2000 was always their first choice.

Regarding MMRCA, out of 6 contestants only Rafale and Typhoon cleared all stringent IAF criteria. But during evaluation, IAF saw that Rafale was better and suited their needs better. And luckily it came cheaper too. So in this too, they wanted Rafale above Typhoon.

Look at the first 5 minutes of this video. This is as official as it gets. @Panzerjager should look at first 5 minutes of this video too, to understand IAF MMRCA selection process: