Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
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Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
The Pod Talios used by the French and the new IRST which was developed in collaboration with the Indians and at their request both use MWIR (Middle Wave Infra red) technology. Talios would be able to visualize, in discretion because passive, thrusters at nearly 200 km and the new IRST would have...
That link goes to a post about the SU. Are you saying the Indians are getting the Talios? The specs look good. Now tell them where the Talios imaging sensor comes from.Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
The Pod Talios used by the French and the new IRST which was developed in collaboration with the Indians and at their request both use MWIR (Middle Wave Infra red) technology. Talios would be able to visualize, in discretion because passive, thrusters at nearly 200 km and the new IRST would have...www.strategicfront.org
I thought they were using Israeli lightning pods?
I posted a giant rebuttal that you just qouted my friend while saying I didn't post a rebuttal! how difficult things are for you LOL. Allow me to explain what is happening, brother. ad I do not mean to personal attacks.
The French here know the F-35 beats them in nearly every area. The French are very insecure people. for as much as they tell us they are "happy" with the Rafale they still obsess over the F-35 which is why they are in here all the time trying to make 3 +7 = 15.
The reason you keep seeing such visceral french reactions to the F-35 is their last bastion of defense is "sure the F-35 is good on paper but it doesn't work!"
If the F-35 works they have nothing and they know it. "F-35 spends all its time in the garage! if it can't fly it can't fight!" That is the glue that holds the arguement together and why your friend and master Pickleoil and herciv must be in this thread at all times chanting into your ears that the F-35 doesn't work! Why even the US government says so!!!
But then Russia Invades Ukraine and guess what happens? Watch:
On Friday, Feb. 11, 2022, the 34th Fighter Squadron received its initial warning call. An official go-ahead the next day, Feb. 12, set their plans in motion.
On Sunday, as Super Bowl LVI blared from a television at the squadron bar, airmen plotted the 5,100-mile trek to Germany. The next day — Valentine’s Day — F-35 pilots said goodbye to loved ones and began to deploy. By Wednesday, Feb. 16, the 34th Fighter Squadron was gone.
I thought the F-35 couldn't deploy? But then they deployed a whole squadron in 5 days 5,100 miles??
"As the FY22 Annual DOT&E Report indicates – the F-35 combat coded fleet achieved its 65% target for monthly average availability for the combined twelve months ending in September 2022. Still, readiness challenges remain, as indicated in multiple GAO findings"
DOT&E acknowledged the F-35 hit its readiness goal for 12 months. Note the word AVERAGE though. more on that in a second.
not saying its perfect but its not "in the garage" as much as the French try to spin it. and those numbers are beating France's Readiness numbers for the Rafale.
'While the overall mission capable (MC) rate of the Lockheed Martin [LMT] F-35 is around 60 percent, forward military detachments have seen MC rates of more than 80 percent, including more than 87 percent in Europe over the past SIX MONTHS,"
Lockheed Martin Notes High Mission Capable Rates for Forward F-35s, While Training Aircraft Lag - Defense Daily
While the overall mission capable (MC) rate of the Lockheed Martin F-35 is around 60 percent, forward military detachments have seen MC rates of more thanwww.defensedaily.com
I thought the F-35 when encountering a "real war" wouldn't be able to fly? 80-87 percent? that exceeds the Rafale. The F-35 can surge and 6 months straight?!
Navy Super Hornet fleet aging faster, less available than predecessor fleet: CBO - Breaking Defense
The Super Hornets' performance also had unfavorable comparisons to other Navy and Air Force fleets.breakingdefense.com
F-35 has better readiness rates than the Super Hornet!!!
The F-35 in Eastern Europe has proven itself And pickleoil and others know this. They have to actually attempt to ignore it. They sent the F-35 to eastern Europe for a reason, but its now blown a hole in their entire arguement that in a real world situation the F-35 can't play. but instead its hitting 87 percent readiness in Europe.
pickleoil and herciv are using averages because they are taking the entire F-35 fleet across all types and then taking low hour training and test units plus high flying hour squadrons and AVERAGEing the amount. this degrades the readiness numbers of real combat units. If the French Connection only look at the combat units the game is over. and what is worse they know it. if they told you the truth or reported things on an equal footing they could not yell politique! and pretend nothing is wrong.
The problem for the French here is they have to keep spinning something everyone in Europe is witnessing, which is why the avalanche of F-35s has picked up after the Russian invasion. Reports are nice, just make sure you actually look at the whole report my friend! Don't stop reading when you hear what you want.
My friend you are not French. You do not need to bring their inferiority complex and baggage here. You are your own person, your own country, your own culture, your own air force that has Rafales-- but has other aircraft too and in greater number I understand the "Rafale only" propoganda from the French but they don't own you. You can like the Rafale without believing every lie for everything else. I don't know why its so hard to acknowledge there is more to the F-35 story other than the fear of losing face and disappointing those who are obscuring basic evidences. You are not beholden to France or the French. My favorite fighter is Gripen. my favorite American aircraft is the C-130 Hercules. I am not married to the F-35. but my friend some of this stuff is just too ridiculous to ignore anymore. plus I took great offense at pickleoil telling me that that Gripen E was 6th generation and when I agreed and said "yes and the Gripen E even does some things better than the Rafale" he sheepishly withdrew his endoresement because the French can not concede even a millimeter. even if it means openly lying.
Lol. Okay, let's continue this discussion after the F-35 achieves FOC with the B4.
Someone misspoke, If that is the criteria, it will never be FOC, there is always another block upgrade. FOC is when all are delivered. Australia is FOC this year. We will have our 72 units.
"In general, attained when all units and/or organizations in the force structure scheduled to receive a system have received it and have the ability to employ and maintain it. The specifics for any particular system FOC are defined in that system’s Capability Development Document (CDD) and updated CDD."
Yes. Anyway, what is the story with IRST pods for the Rafale. Are they getting Talios and where does the IR sensor come from? Or are they sticking with Israeli lightning
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'Cause we fvcked up the contract negotiations. So a new competition will be launched soon.
IAF’s acquisition of 114 fighter jets to be part of a major procurement plan
A mega 500-fighter aircraft acquisition process on the anvil for the armed forces; reaching the sanctioned 42 squadrons will take time and the immediate effort is to arrest the drawdown in strength, says Air Marshal Narmdeshwar Tiwari
We can't afford it. But one of our ACMs said that if it was up to him and if we had the money, we would replace all our jets with just 1 type.
The problem India is facing is our currency has fallen by nearly half over the last decade, so the cost of imports have doubled.
Currently, we plan on reducing from 7 types to 4, LCA, MKI, Rafale and AMCA, which is actually a massive change. In the next replacement cycle, we may settle for just 2 or even 1 type.
The Italians are also going FOC this year
theaviationist.com
The Italian Air Force FOC (Final Operational Capability) is planned for December 2023
Future Base, Expected FOC And More About The Italian F-35 Fleet
The 100th Anniversary of the Italian Air Force provided an opportunity for an update on the Italian participation in the F-35 program. The F-35 is no
theaviationist.com
@Panzerjager said:
And @randomradio said:
where it is for Rafale....
It's really difficult and tiring to have to explain everything to you
Readiness woes dominate F-35 hearing, but other issues remain - Breaking Defense
In his first testimony before Congress as the F-35 Program Executive Officer, Air Force Lt. Gen. Mike Schmidt said just 53% of the US Joint Strike Fighter fleet was mission capable as of February 2023, a statistic he called “unacceptable.”
Dreams and reality. F-35 fanboys have to choose.
Apart from "War on Readiness", the F-35 is so cheap that Schmidt has launched a "War on Cost".
Schmidt is also launching a “War on Cost” to get a handle on the fighter’s rising topline — a phrase the JPO has used at least once before, in 2015, to describe a new initiative, and also one used by engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney as early as 2009.
Block 4 is considered the aircraft with full warfighting capabilities. It was expected to be achieved in 2019.
Anyway, some air forces will declare FOC without B4, but that's not a capability FOC that ends the development of the jet, that's basically squadrons achieving full strength.
There's FOC for every little thing, even for radar and even ODIN. The first to announce capability FOC will naturally be the US. Most likely the USMC 'cause of their reduced requirements. Then the upgrades are passed down to partners and export customers.
Basically they will announce the completion of B4 and the start of B5.
May I ask my friend, aircraft aside. put these airplanes aside for a moment. Can you explain how an "established" 8.7 billion dollar price tag is "better" than an "unstable" price that is nearly 2.5 billion dollars less? see hear:
36 Rafale $8.7 billion dollars India
36 F-35A $6.25 billion for Swiss
secondly. Any additional Rafale upgrades will also cost money unless the plan is to not upgrade them at all ever (not recommended path!)
my 'random' friend. the ECU for the F-135 is an Engine Core Upgrade. meaning they take old F135, take off front part, take off back part, put in new engine core center for upgrade. that is hardly "screwed" and the additional costs are likely not going to be the end of the world as you want them to be. India doesn't have the latest f4 variant of Rafale, are you "Screwed" until the upgrade can take place?
even if that simple surgery costs the Swiss 1 billion dollars it will still cause savings compared to Rafale. even 2 billion dollar upgrade still saves! The "unstable" and "unknown" F-35 costs are an easy choice so I do not understand why you think a stable and more expensive price is better than a much reduced price with some possible additional cost when the difference is so wide for prices.
my friend I do not know if saying the Rafale price which costs billions more than F-35 and is "established" is the wisest course of action when arguing costs. you seem to be prioritizing "stability" over "cost";
the problem F-35 zombies is that you do not understand the billions of dollars more stability of the Rafale!! take that F-35 zombie faction!
@Herciv as a Gripeneer I do not understand your obsession with F-35 prices when the Rafale seem either just as expensive or in some cases even more expensive to buy. in the prices I put up the F-35 seems much close to Gripen price than Rafale price
and maybe in the future instead of obsessing over F-35 costs that seem as expensive or less than Rafale you can stop telling us how mega expensive and unaffordable the F-35 is and tell us instead how the Rafale is less expensive than the F-35 because it looks like you are insecure about your own costs and attempting to distract
I know your feeling. Your friend herciv cannot even tell the differences between letters like "FBW" and "ADS" and can not read or remember things that he "read" before. on several occasions he has already been corrected on a point, and then he continues.
with your forgiveness please mon frère, I will act like randomradio and say "its not me saying it, but the French themselves!!" saying they don't have SEAD/DEAD. So that is the ultimate end of the conversation! even though we both know that governments tend to have many wings and branches and say many different things. The Rafale is controversial in India and allegations of corruption are common place. I post "The Rafale deal is pure corruption" and when people try to explain I can again employ the randomradio methods and say "Oh my friends! that is not me saying it! that is the Indians themselves!" it would be nice if certain ground rules could be made. I think I am nice person for not bringing up Rafale woes in India which from here look nearly identicale to F-35 woes and instead try to move onto other things and avoid some bad arguements being used here. but i am not hopeful for such rules considering I can not even get you to concede a meaningless point on the Gripen fighter that does you no harm anyway.
may I offer you a cherry?
Just 53.1% of the fighter fleet was found to be mission capable in February 2023, with 29.3 fully mission capable, according to prepared remarks [PDF] delivered by Air Force Lt. Gen. Mike Schmidt, who heads the F-35 program.Readiness woes dominate F-35 hearing, but other issues remain - Breaking Defense
In his first testimony before Congress as the F-35 Program Executive Officer, Air Force Lt. Gen. Mike Schmidt said just 53% of the US Joint Strike Fighter fleet was mission capable as of February 2023, a statistic he called “unacceptable.”
Dreams and reality. F-35 fanboys have to choose.
Apart from "War on Readiness", the F-35 is so cheap that Schmidt has launched a "War on Cost".
Schmidt is also launching a “War on Cost” to get a handle on the fighter’s rising topline — a phrase the JPO has used at least once before, in 2015, to describe a new initiative, and also one used by engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney as early as 2009.
Schmidt also pointed to a DOT&E report that Combat coded-- the airplanes in frontline missions and wars are meeting their readiness goals. "As the FY22 Annual DOT&E Report indicates – the F-35 combat coded fleet achieved its 65% target for monthly average availability for the combined twelve months ending in September 2022. Still, readiness challenges remain, as indicated in multiple GAO findings" the only way to actually drop the F-35 readiness numbers is to include all the older F-35s that are in training and test squadrons and other specialist non combat units that operate at slower capacity anyway
reality and reality is which data set you choose to use. in this case you are actually taking two different statements from the same person!
averaging the entire fleet makes no sense when measuring combat capabilities because very large sections of the F-35 fleet in the US are for training and test units. The navy has its own training unit, then the marines have their own test and training unit and then the air force has 2 separate training bases with a 3rd base on the way. the american military has always specified "combat coded" too. The idea that training units that don't fly as much as operational units need full combat capability and readiness is foolhardy. The Navy had 2 F-35C squadrons one training squadron could be at 30 percent capacity, the other squadron is a combat squadron and its at 75 percent. when we average these 2 squadrons its 52 percent. which is about exact with the above 53.1 percent capability. testing units are the same "averaging" problem
apparently they do not teach "mean, median, and mode and range" and even basic number and statistical theory. once one understands these very basic theory they can understand cherry picking and twisting, which means they sadly do not teach how to armor against such manipulations.
I am glad they continue the various "wars" against F-35 problems and it would be nice if similar wars on readiness and cost were carried out by other countries that manufacture fighters. They instead say 8.7 billion for 36 Rafales! and their buyers say "wow what a deal! since there is no war on costs, the costs must be optimal!" in America they tell you their weapons have problems. in other countries they tell you nothing, and you find out after you buy them. very happy to have the Australians back on H-60 blackhawks after they played the "buy and learn" game with their new Taipan helicopters. The indians got to play "buy and learn" for years with the Rafale. they spent years establishing "established costs"
what matters for combat is how ready F-35 combat units are, since the F-35 combat units are meeting readiness goals and by a lot in fact 'random' must declare them a "dream" despite the DOT&E reporting on it. what matters is combat units. That is why the French talk about war and readiness and surge capacity. no one gives a hell about some training unit in Arizona that has 30 percent readiness when most of their time spent there is basic flying, classrooms and simulators. None of the basic F-35 units train in combat tactics. that comes in the more advanced units, so there is no need to have "full mission capability" on airplanes that only need to fly in circles and figure 8 patterns in Arizona or the Carolinas and practice landing over and over again. This is why the US does such distinctions. The US has more training aircraft of all types than the entire French Air Force. so US don't declare C-130s "omnirole" and then insist that a transport also be fully ready at all times to carry paratroops, drop bombs etc. it is a waste of money and time. On paper our Apache helicopters are able to carry Stinger missiles but such things are rarely bothered with same thing with the Longbow radar that was largely removed the last 2 decades.
this is how the F-35 wins these competitions my friends and why there is so much butthurt. my French and Indian friends say "Haha pierre! Ze Americans and their pathetic readiness numbers!! we will win because our airplane works!!" And then the Americans show the buyers combat unit readiness numbers 65 and above verified by the DOT&E, 87 percent readiness in Europe and the F-35 wins because the readiness question is no longer a problem. Since the French and company do not understand this basic tactic and choose to only look at what they want to believe they then say "Pierre?! how could ziss happen!? Politique!!" That is the problem with echo chambers. I can still hear the Russians telling themselves Ukraine would crumble in 72 hours.
The same problem abounds "well if the F-35 worked it would be great! but haha! it doesn't work" well they have it working so now what?
"ha well its still too expensive!" it doesn't look more costly than anything else out there and even looks to be less in a lot of cases so now what?
someone is going to have to explain to me how a an order of 8.8 billion dollars for 35 F-35s to Germany (that includes spares and weapons) is somehow drastically more expensive than 36 Rafales to India for 8.7 billion dollars. its the difference of 100 millino dollars and one airplane, and the germans got weapons too
its very funny that the F-35 club and the Rafale club are so close in similarity but you don't seem to realize it.
8.8 billion for Germany
8.7 billion for India
4.5 billion for Brazil <-----
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That is every air force and the whole point of Rafale and JSF. many types are many problems but you are Indian and I don't have to remind you.
That is the US standard, its not to everyone and as we both already agreed on Block 4 and other declarations hinge on things like the JSE that other F-35 operators won't even bother with. it is the problem with the US "double think" that we have operational units that have actually been into combat but we are saying until a computer simulation says so they are not capable of combat. The Israelis think it is a joke that airplanes they already use in combat must be approved by a magic box. Thank you America for saying the aircraft we already used for combat are combat capable. Most air forces have seen it for what it is and are going to skip such formalities. in the end the US wants "severe" overmatch. the F-35 would fight and deploy against China tomorrow if needed, would still be more capable than anything else the US has, it would just be more difficult and likely sustain higher losses compared to block 4, just like how a Rafale would do better with f4 standard compared to f3, or block III Super Hornet better than Block II
its an important distinction my brother that all the block 4 "Do or Die" talk is based on simulations of a theoretical year 2030 china capability. The US ran a wargame set in the year 2030 and then came to various conclusions that lead to a laundry list of things they already wanted. The US frequently encounters double talk because it must keep multiple fires burning. That is how General Hostage said years ago the F-35 would be amazing and then in the next breath had to then say "but we still need the F-22 upgrades too or else the F-35 can't work!!" there are many mouths to feed and so America has about 15 "number 1 priorities" going at any given moment. We need nuclear bomb upgrades, but also block 4 F-35s, but also Block III Super Hornets, and lets not forget the new submarines!
depending on the time of year you will get multiple stories. If it is close to getting a new military budget the military will tell you how they are on the verge of collapse unless they get even more money than last year. Then they get the money and suddenly overnight they are the "worlds greatedt air force" again.
India is the same way in the fact that some political parties are not happy with the Rafale and say corruption. difference between you and me my friend is that I understand these are political games, while you think America is just one big brain with one single opinion. That opposition parties and 2nd opinions do not exist. If one American says it, then they all say it and the story ends there if one American group or even one American says "F-35 bad" you say "see even America says it!" no my friend one America says it, and then they buy another 300 of them. clearly words and actions are not matching.
The double standard is the F-35 must be block 4 to deal with 2030 super china or it is no good, but the Rafale can limp forward with whatever because it peaked already. F-35 Black and white. Rafale a beautiful shade of gray. listening to the Americans the Rafale would be dead in the Western pacific because its not a block 4 F-35. the Rafale club here would reject that proposition and then also tell us anything less than a block 4 F-35 is dead meat. strange. An acknowledgement that the F-35 is expected to perform to a higher standard than Rafale, and thus in need of Block 4 would be an interesting admission that is perhaps even more intriquing than the endless price debates that are ultimately meaningless.
Now are you gonna claim you know more than the makers of this system?" -- randomradio
my friend it is so stupid to take all the F-35 variants lump them into one and then average them out when there are cost differences between variants. even in this post you admit there are "spares" so we have no idea what costs what. this is dumb and given the Rafale prices in the UAE is not exactly a winning idea to begin with. Is your objective here to try and prove LM to be lying according to the US government or is it to prove the expense of the F-35? There are multiple ways to measure cost in the US. if Boeing says a super hornet is 65 million each this means they are likely using flyaway cost and then everyone else must use the same tactic or they will look too costly! So Then LM says "85 million" which is likely true if flyaway cost for F-35A variant without things like additional US sales fees. Saab will say 45 million meaning their flyaway. "flyaway" means airplane and engine but nothing much else. as is true with everyone in the end, flyaway is meaningless and the real costs are much higher with everything truly necessary to operate and with other options included. Canada liberal party thought Super Hornet for 65 million was real then cancelled order when reality of 5-6 billion actual costs for real world contract. in the US it is not uncommon for Engine and airplane to have separate costings because they are not made by same companies.
it is hard to believe my friend that you could dig up all the above information without knowledge of other factors already like I explain above. its cherry pickings.
I know you cannot read yet, but this may be useful to others.
what is the purpose of this post? 97 million dollars including spare parts (???) is not expensive to me averaged across all variants of F-35 when LM says the range is between 70-90 million depending on variants anyway with just the airplane. besides getting approval and thumbsie uppies from your other friends here I do not see the point in an exercise that seemingly shows LM to be accurate in terms of data. Many F-35 sales are bought by and for the US government and FMS sales are done through the US gov. How LM is lying and how there is a gap between LM and the "certified" government prices is a mystery to me. or what "certified" even means GAO would quickly find any lies in differences between US and LM prices
can you explain to me and others what you are doing exactly? This looks like an exercise where Optimal says 3+5 =8 and you say 6+2 = 8
????
A better comparison would be the modified Israeli F-35s, the price of which is unknown.
The Swiss may be fine with a vanilla F-35, but we won't be. Naturally the same rule applies to the Rafale.
Europe uses NATO compatible systems, so it's plug and play, India doesn't. So we need modifications. Our S-400s too have been extensively modified for integration with the Indian IADS. It's been combined with Indian and Israeli radars for example. That costs money. Similarly, the Israelis have modified F-35s for their own use.
ISRAELI AIR FORCE TO PURCHASE 17 MORE F-35I STEALTH FIGHTERS - The Aviation Geek Club
ISRAELI AIR FORCE TO PURCHASE 17 MORE F-35I STEALTH FIGHTERS
theaviationgeekclub.com
Israeli F-35 deals have been severely criticized because the aircraft are more expensive than those purchased by the U.S. Air Force (USAF) since they feature several unique (and indigenous) systems to satisfy IAF operational requirements.
That's a pretty high average. That's $109.46 per jet, average for 50.
Funny how the rules change when apples are compared with apples.
There's no "theoretical China 2030 capability". The B4 plan was created long before the J-20 even began flying. It was supposed to end in 2019.
The Block 4 plan has been around for years it was not given the "sense of urgency" and "must have" until recent wargames and big honking declarations. it was previously another Block on the multiple block upgrade path, not the first or the last block planned;
"Notably, the F-35s used during the war game were the more advanced F-35 Block 4 aircraft under development, which will feature a suite of new computing equipment known as “Tech Refresh 3,” enhancements to its radar and electronic warfare systems, and new weapons.
“We wouldn’t even play the current version of the F-35,” Hinote said. “It wouldn’t be worth it. … Every fighter that rolls off the line today is a fighter that we wouldn’t even bother putting into these scenarios.”
A US Air Force war game shows what the service needs to hold off — or win against — China in 2030
American officials talked about the classified war game’s results with Defense News, just months before the service planned to release its fiscal 2022 budget.
www.defensenews.com
your desire to be disagreeable my friend forces you to attack everything even the truth. What a great opportunity India misses in not appoiting you as the chief of the military. You seemingly know everything already my friend!
people like yourself took the above quote to mean the F-35 was useless, ("not me saying it!") but its just another avenue to ensure the F-35 gets funding. it is taking advantage of sunk cost. they move the goal posts even more than you my friend! and finally I would think that Indians of all people would understand that troubled procuremets and years of delays don't mean a bad airplane is inevitably required. if so the judgement on the Rafale was already delivered