Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Panzerjager]

A better comparison would be the modified Israeli F-35s, the price of which is unknown.

The Swiss may be fine with a vanilla F-35, but we won't be. Naturally the same rule applies to the Rafale.

Europe uses NATO compatible systems, so it's plug and play, India doesn't. So we need modifications. Our S-400s too have been extensively modified for integration with the Indian IADS. It's been combined with Indian and Israeli radars for example. That costs money. Similarly, the Israelis have modified F-35s for their own use.

ISRAELI AIR FORCE TO PURCHASE 17 MORE F-35I STEALTH FIGHTERS - The Aviation Geek Club

ISRAELI AIR FORCE TO PURCHASE 17 MORE F-35I STEALTH FIGHTERS

theaviationgeekclub.com

Noteworthy while in the first deal, Israel paid $125 million per plane for 19 F-35s in total, in the second deal, the price went down to $112 million per plane for 14 jets. Now Israel expects the price to drop below $90 million per plane for the additional 17 F-35Is.

Israeli F-35 deals have been severely criticized because the aircraft are more expensive than those purchased by the U.S. Air Force (USAF) since they feature several unique (and indigenous) systems to satisfy IAF operational requirements.

That's a pretty high average. That's $109.46 per jet, average for 50.

Funny how the rules change when apples are compared with apples.

by all means compare apples to apples all you please the F-35A is still not as costly. We can debate about weather the Rafale is worth what it costs but the price is the price and I do not see how we can have an 8 billion dollar F-35 with the germans and call it obscenely expensive and then look at 8 billion dollars for Rafales and call it a wonderful bargain.

it is like watching ugly women fight over who is more hideous

and in comparing apples to apples the F-35Is modifications are not for compatibility "plug and play" sake, but for the improvement in combat capabilities. It sounds like India payed a lot of additional money for Rafales that are the same as the vanilla French Rafales but will be able to play nicely with S-400. you didn't pay for additional capability, you payed extra for plug and play basics. nice job! and surely all along everyone here would have assured me that the "vanilla" rafale avionics were so good and plug and play already that silly additional costs would be unneeded. Funny with F-35 everyone is on the lookout for "additional costs" that the Rafale "doesn't need" and yet here we are.

so much of this thread my friend is "F-35 additional costs bad!" and then "Rafale additional costs good!" it is mindnumbing that buying over 30 fighters can hit over 8 billion dollars for both F-35 and the Rafale but the last brain cell insists that one 8 billion dollar expenditure is hyper expensive, but another 8 billion dollar fighter is just right, and even cheap really. and its scary to think that we can not even name the fighters and have the same debate. A is B and B is A. we should make a game of it

 

[randomradio]

The Block 4 plan has been around for years it was not given the "sense of urgency" and "must have" until recent wargames and big honking declarations. it was previously another Block on the multiple block upgrade path, not the first or the last block planned;

"Notably, the F-35s used during the war game were the more advanced F-35 Block 4 aircraft under development, which will feature a suite of new computing equipment known as “Tech Refresh 3,” enhancements to its radar and electronic warfare systems, and new weapons.

“We wouldn’t even play the current version of the F-35,” Hinote said. “It wouldn’t be worth it. … Every fighter that rolls off the line today is a fighter that we wouldn’t even bother putting into these scenarios.”

A US Air Force war game shows what the service needs to hold off — or win against — China in 2030

American officials talked about the classified war game’s results with Defense News, just months before the service planned to release its fiscal 2022 budget.

www.defensenews.com

your desire to be disagreeable my friend forces you to attack everything even the truth. What a great opportunity India misses in not appoiting you as the chief of the military. You seemingly know everything already my friend! people like yourself took the above quote to mean the F-35 was useless, ("not me saying it!") but its just another avenue to ensure the F-35 gets funding. it is taking advantage of sunk cost. they move the goal posts even more than you my friend! and finally I would think that Indians of all people would understand that troubled procuremets and years of delays don't mean a bad airplane is inevitably required. if so the judgement on the Rafale was already delivered

The Pentagon would beg to differ.

Advanced Electro-Optical System A Priority For F-35 Block 4 | Aviation Week Network

Key F-35 targeting system is playing catch-up with the competition—before it has even entered service—due to development delays.

aviationweek.com

July 02, 2015
A comprehensive overhaul of one of the most important sensor systems on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is a high priority for the Block 4 upgrade program, say company officials.

Shows that core avionics were supposed to be changed in B4.

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Coverage - Breaking Defense

breakingdefense.com

Jun. 16, 2014
“We need to start thinking now about the requirements for the next blocks of software … after the things that are currently in Block 4,” Kendall said. “This is a game that never ends. You have to stay ahead, and there are competitors out there you have to worry about.”

The part in bold proves that B4 was already established as early as 2014.

Trust me, neither the Pentagon nor LM have any issues with getting funding for the F-35. It was already established long ago that the program is too big to fail and that all promised jets will be bought. What they are struggling with it showing the work. What that means is it will affect their involvement in future programs, like NGAD. A competitor like Boeing will argue that LM is already struggling with the F-35, it doesn't make sense to give new programs to them, and so on. LM's credibility is rock-bottom.

What's funny is the USAF believes the F-35 cannot be used against China today, but the IAF believes Rafale can be used against China today.

 

[Panzerjager]

A better comparison would be the modified Israeli F-35s, the price of which is unknown.

The Swiss may be fine with a vanilla F-35, but we won't be. Naturally the same rule applies to the Rafale.

Europe uses NATO compatible systems, so it's plug and play, India doesn't. So we need modifications. Our S-400s too have been extensively modified for integration with the Indian IADS. It's been combined with Indian and Israeli radars for example. That costs money. Similarly, the Israelis have modified F-35s for their own use.

ISRAELI AIR FORCE TO PURCHASE 17 MORE F-35I STEALTH FIGHTERS - The Aviation Geek Club

ISRAELI AIR FORCE TO PURCHASE 17 MORE F-35I STEALTH FIGHTERS

theaviationgeekclub.com

Noteworthy while in the first deal, Israel paid $125 million per plane for 19 F-35s in total, in the second deal, the price went down to $112 million per plane for 14 jets. Now Israel expects the price to drop below $90 million per plane for the additional 17 F-35Is.

Israeli F-35 deals have been severely criticized because the aircraft are more expensive than those purchased by the U.S. Air Force (USAF) since they feature several unique (and indigenous) systems to satisfy IAF operational requirements.

That's a pretty high average. That's $109.46 per jet, average for 50.

Funny how the rules change when apples are compared with apples.

"Contracts to Dassault Aviation, Safran (the engine manufacturer) and Thales (the electronics) will be sent out by the DGA procurement agency in the next few days. While no price tag was given during Parly’s announcement, Trappier has previously said one fully equipped fighter costs around 100 million euros, or $121 million, which would put the total package at just under $1.5 billion."

France begins backfilling its Rafale fleet after selling some to Greece

The French Air and Space Force will be getting 12 new Rafales for an estimated cost of $1.5 billion.

www.defensenews.com

How do you like them apples? you had to take the most expensive custom made F-35A you could find with additional avionics and jamming included and its still less money than a Vanilla Rafale.

Why the hell do we keep having this pointless cost arguement? just agree you are both ugly and unaffordable

 

[randomradio]

by all means compare apples to apples all you please the F-35A is still not as costly. We can debate about weather the Rafale is worth what it costs but the price is the price and I do not see how we can have an 8 billion dollar F-35 with the germans and call it obscenely expensive and then look at 8 billion dollars for Rafales and call it a wonderful bargain.

it is like watching ugly women fight over who is more hideous

and in comparing apples to apples the F-35Is modifications are not for compatibility "plug and play" sake, but for the improvement in combat capabilities. It sounds like India payed a lot of additional money for Rafales that are the same as the vanilla French Rafales but will be able to play nicely with S-400. you didn't pay for additional capability, you payed extra for plug and play basics. nice job! and surely all along everyone here would have assured me that the "vanilla" rafale avionics were so good and plug and play already that silly additional costs would be unneeded. Funny with F-35 everyone is on the lookout for "additional costs" that the Rafale "doesn't need" and yet here we are.

so much of this thread my friend is "F-35 additional costs bad!" and then "Rafale additional costs good!" it is mindnumbing that buying over 30 fighters can hit over 8 billion dollars for both F-35 and the Rafale but the last brain cell insists that one 8 billion dollar expenditure is hyper expensive, but another 8 billion dollar fighter is just right, and even cheap really. and its scary to think that we can not even name the fighters and have the same debate. A is B and B is A. we should make a game of it

The first 36 are expensive. But the cost is amortised over more numbers. Even though we bought just 36, we bought ground infrastructure for 72-80 which costs $2B and the R&D effort costs a similar amount. The actual cost of the jets without double infrastructure and R&D would amount to $6.3B for the vanilla jets and 1 base, along with weapons and maintenance, which is $175M per jet. Add 36 more, and we just have to pay for the jets, spares, maintenance and weapons, which comes up to $5.3B or $143M per jet. And so on.

You also forget that the $9B also comes with 50% offsets, which has returned to India in the form of investments.

EXCLUSIVE: 1st Full Details Of Rafale's €4-billion Make-in-India & Offsets Plan - Livefist

As a political storm intensifies around India's €7.87 billion deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets from France, and substantial fire focused through allegations of preferential corporate partnerships for the €4 billion in offsets that Dassault Aviation and its partners need to execute, the Narendra...

www.livefistdefence.com

So it's pretty dumb to compare Indian costs to a country like Finland's, which is just receiving vanilla jets.

In any case, as I said before, the paper contracts being signed today are cheaper than the Rafale's, but true costs have not been established yet. Any problems will cost extra. Going back to my statement saying you have to wait for the B4 to become operational if you are to know real costs, 'cause the jet is still WIP.

 

[randomradio]

"Contracts to Dassault Aviation, Safran (the engine manufacturer) and Thales (the electronics) will be sent out by the DGA procurement agency in the next few days. While no price tag was given during Parly’s announcement, Trappier has previously said one fully equipped fighter costs around 100 million euros, or $121 million, which would put the total package at just under $1.5 billion."

France begins backfilling its Rafale fleet after selling some to Greece

The French Air and Space Force will be getting 12 new Rafales for an estimated cost of $1.5 billion.

www.defensenews.com

How do you like them apples? you had to take the most expensive custom made F-35A you could find with additional avionics and jamming included and its still less money than a Vanilla Rafale.

Why the hell do we keep having this pointless cost arguement? just agree you are both ugly and unaffordable

A full equipped fighter at $120M is cheaper than what India is paying. It's not unit flyaway cost.

Greece signs deal to procure six additional Rafale jets

Greece has signed an agreement to purchase six additional Rafale jets in a bid to strengthen the firepower of its armed forces.

www.airforce-technology.com

Greece ordered 18 Rafale fighter jets in January 2021 for €1.92bn ($2.18bn). The deal will also include a further €400m payment for associated equipment.

That's way cheaper than what any F-35 contract costs, even for the US.

 

[Panzerjager]

The Pentagon would beg to differ.

Advanced Electro-Optical System A Priority For F-35 Block 4 | Aviation Week Network

Key F-35 targeting system is playing catch-up with the competition—before it has even entered service—due to development delays.

aviationweek.com

July 02, 2015
A comprehensive overhaul of one of the most important sensor systems on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is a high priority for the Block 4 upgrade program, say company officials.

Shows that core avionics were supposed to be changed in B4.

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Coverage - Breaking Defense

breakingdefense.com

Jun. 16, 2014
“We need to start thinking now about the requirements for the next blocks of software … after the things that are currently in Block 4,” Kendall said. “This is a game that never ends. You have to stay ahead, and there are competitors out there you have to worry about.”

The part in bold proves that B4 was already established as early as 2014.

I agree that block 4 was an old idea, what I said was the heavy emphasis on its importance is pretty recent. I don't know why you are picking fights over what we already agree on my friend.

Trust me, neither the Pentagon nor LM have any issues with getting funding for the F-35. It was already established long ago that the program is too big to fail and that all promised jets will be bought.

What they are struggling with it showing the work. What that means is it will affect their involvement in future programs, like NGAD. A competitor like Boeing will argue that LM is already struggling with the F-35, it doesn't make sense to give new programs to them, and so on. LM's credibility is rock-bottom.

You have no idea what you are talking about in terms of credibility and politics in the US. you are confusing your own opinion for what is happening here. its a typical random post in that its just made without thought or research and then heavily grounded in personal opinion. You are the guy who tried to tell us India has no biases, and everyone here dismissed it my friend and now you try to educate me in my own country LOL

What's funny is the USAF believes the F-35 cannot be used against China today, but the IAF believes Rafale can be used against China today.

its not 2030 yet my friend and the US already has F-35s stationed in the pacific and has for years already. if war comes F-35 will go to war. if they thought they were not ready for war, they would not have bothered to send them. the F-35 build up is pacific first, Europe second. guess why?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Pentagon Memo: F-35 Capabilities in Jeopardy​

When the Pentagon restructured the F-35 program in 2012 it postponed production in order to decrease concurrency in the program, which is overlapping production before development and operational testing is complete, violating the principle of “fly before you buy.” The JPO’s truncation of development is a deliberate increase in the F-35’s concurrency.

The stated purpose of concurrency is to speed up the schedule and save money, but the real motive is to protect an increasing flow of procurement funds against any possibility of slowdown or cancellation due to failure in testing—a practice that has rightly been called “acquisition malpractice.” Moreover, history has repeatedly shown us that it actually delays programs and adds to costs.

The F-35 will not be effective in combat and will place American military lives in danger unless drastic measures are taken now.

By proceeding with their current plan to truncate F-35 development testing and to not fund (or underfund) the operational test aircraft, instruments, mission simulators, and urgently needed threat simulators, they are in effect sabotaging any realistic testing of the combat suitability or unsuitability of the F-35. Underfunding these efforts increases the likelihood of failing to identify and correct preventable problems in testing and leaves pilots having to address deficiencies in combat.

 

[Panzerjager]

A full equipped fighter at $120M is cheaper than what India is paying. It's not unit flyaway cost.

Greece signs deal to procure six additional Rafale jets

Greece has signed an agreement to purchase six additional Rafale jets in a bid to strengthen the firepower of its armed forces.

www.airforce-technology.com

Greece ordered 18 Rafale fighter jets in January 2021 for €1.92bn ($2.18bn). The deal will also include a further €400m payment for associated equipment.

That's way cheaper than what any F-35 contract costs, even for the US.

Used jets cost less money. I guess the French are just waiting for those 121 million dollar Each Rafales to Amortize.

PARIS – The Greek and French defense ministers in Athens today witnessed the signature of the contract to buy 18 Rafale fighter aircraft after Greek parliamentarians approved the €2.5 billion ($3.04 billion) deal earlier this month.

Again mate these costs between Rafale and F-35 are not that different. You are hoping to get Rafales down to a price in India to nearly what canada was expecting to pay (the Canadian F-35s were less)

The first 36 are expensive. But the cost is amortised over more numbers. Even though we bought just 36, we bought ground infrastructure for 72-80 which costs $2B and the R&D effort costs a similar amount. The actual cost of the jets without double infrastructure and R&D would amount to $6.3B for the vanilla jets and 1 base, along with weapons and maintenance, which is $175M per jet. Add 36 more, and we just have to pay for the jets, spares, maintenance and weapons, which comes up to $5.3B or $143M per jet. And so on.

This is not the winning argument you think it is.

In any case, as I said before, the paper contracts being signed today are cheaper than the Rafale's, but true costs have not been established yet. Any problems will cost extra. Going back to my statement saying you have to wait for the B4 to become operational if you are to know real costs, 'cause the jet is still WIP.

going back to what I am saying that even with potential overages the F-35 will still cost less. and the "paper contracts" are legally binding. if additional refits or upgrades or whatever come up, then they will be under additional contracts that still won't cost billions more. Even if the Swiss have prices that escalate to 10 percent its 625 million additional dollars, 1.25 billion for 20 percent overage. That is an insane difference and the fact that you are having to resort to "but we get offsets!!" everyone gets offsets and work shares and other "perks" thrown in. You are just in denial that your airplane costs even more than the "expensive" F-35. And even worse still fighter bought under FMS basically have an added tax put on by the US government so these contracts, the fighters costs are less before fees!

The Swiss found the F-35 to be cheaper than the Rafale in direct comparison apples to apples vanilla to vanilla. remember my friend? "Switzerland also said that the F-35A was nearly $2.2 billion cheaper than the second lowest cost bidder. Procurement costs for the 36 F-35As are nearly $5.5 billion," so the contract was for 6.2 ??? billion US. even with the cost escalation the Swiss save 1.5 billion dollars. So in order for the Swiss to become even with the next competitor F-35 costs have to explode by an additional 1.5 billion dollars.

9 out of 10 Rafale fans would rather bring up F-35 costs than their own! None of this garbage is convincing. if you like the Rafale then like the Rafale but stop trying to pretend its cheap. its not cheap. And even some of these differences are not even that noteworthy! I don't consider it a massive win to be 5-10 percent less than an F-35 -- and spoiler alert! they usually aren't cheaper anyway!

This is again you confusing "cost stability" with a cheaper price. that is not the same thing. even if we say the F-35 entail additional cost risk, we still have a "cushion" for additional costs that comes in under the Rafale price unless we believe that the Swiss F-35 is going to increase by 25 percent.
Anyone will take saving billions now with the risk that the price may increase slightly in the future. You said yourself, the Rafale price is established-- I agree!

Your arguement my friend can not be "You should pay an extra 1 billion or 2 billion to get Rafales, because even though the F-35 is billions less there may be a chance you have to pay more later!" No wonder the F-35 is winning when it meets the Rafale. thats the worst sales strategy I've ever seen. LM can't promise it won't get worse, but you can't promise it will ever be better.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I'd like to draw your attention to the way the F-35 programme has evolved:

Before Bogdan's arrival, the standards had a "fixed" definition, and any difficulties were reflected in a drift in costs and deadlines....which was visible!

Since Bogdan's arrival, standards have had to be delivered on the scheduled date, regardless of the operating status of the version to be delivered, and its functional definition is continuously "adapted" to the time available before delivery. The difficulties are therefore reflected in an appalling lack of functionality and a deplorable level of development....but this is less obvious. The consequence is that we are obliged to create a host of new standards.

As a result, the Standard 3F (where F stands for Final) is unable to pass all the IOT&E tests as originally planned, and this is the only time the F-35 will meet the real thing because the previous tests, which were development tests, were carried out by the manufacturer and were complacent.

So now it's block 4 that has a chance of passing the IOT&E tests and of course all the delays that were hidden have suddenly come to light.

 

[Panzerjager]

I'd like to draw your attention to the way the F-35 programme has evolved:

Quick change the subject!

 

[randomradio]

I agree that block 4 was an old idea, what I said was the heavy emphasis on its importance is pretty recent. I don't know why you are picking fights over what we already agree on my friend.





You have no idea what you are talking about in terms of credibility and politics in the US. you are confusing your own opinion for what is happening here. its a typical random post in that its just made without thought or research and then heavily grounded in personal opinion. You are the guy who tried to tell us India has no biases, and everyone here dismissed it my friend and now you try to educate me in my own country LOL


its not 2030 yet my friend and the US already has F-35s stationed in the pacific and has for years already. if war comes F-35 will go to war. if they thought they were not ready for war, they would not have bothered to send them. the F-35 build up is pacific first, Europe second. guess why?

They can't stop the F-35, at least not without a direct replacement. This program is set to go on until 2040 and they have no choice but to buy all the promised jets, it's unavoidable.

The F-35 can perform some missions today, but not everything that it's been designed for. Today, it's basically a stealth jet with a mix of 4th, 5th and 5.5th gen capabilities. Those 4th gen capabilities need work. At the very least it can detect, track and shoot at a 4th gen jet today with overwhelming superiority. But that's not enough to defeat the enemy on the ground.

Minimum capabilities are expected only in 2026, tentative.

 

[randomradio]

Used jets cost less money. I guess the French are just waiting for those 121 million dollar Each Rafales to Amortize.

PARIS – The Greek and French defense ministers in Athens today witnessed the signature of the contract to buy 18 Rafale fighter aircraft after Greek parliamentarians approved the €2.5 billion ($3.04 billion) deal earlier this month.

Again mate these costs between Rafale and F-35 are not that different. You are hoping to get Rafales down to a price in India to nearly what canada was expecting to pay (the Canadian F-35s were less)

This is not the winning argument you think it is.


going back to what I am saying that even with potential overages the F-35 will still cost less. and the "paper contracts" are legally binding. if additional refits or upgrades or whatever come up, then they will be under additional contracts that still won't cost billions more. Even if the Swiss have prices that escalate to 10 percent its 625 million additional dollars, 1.25 billion for 20 percent overage. That is an insane difference and the fact that you are having to resort to "but we get offsets!!" everyone gets offsets and work shares and other "perks" thrown in. You are just in denial that your airplane costs even more than the "expensive" F-35. And even worse still fighter bought under FMS basically have an added tax put on by the US government so these contracts, the fighters costs are less before fees!

The Swiss found the F-35 to be cheaper than the Rafale in direct comparison apples to apples vanilla to vanilla. remember my friend? "Switzerland also said that the F-35A was nearly $2.2 billion cheaper than the second lowest cost bidder. Procurement costs for the 36 F-35As are nearly $5.5 billion," so the contract was for 6.2 ??? billion US. even with the cost escalation the Swiss save 1.5 billion dollars. So in order for the Swiss to become even with the next competitor F-35 costs have to explode by an additional 1.5 billion dollars.

9 out of 10 Rafale fans would rather bring up F-35 costs than their own! None of this garbage is convincing. if you like the Rafale then like the Rafale but stop trying to pretend its cheap. its not cheap. And even some of these differences are not even that noteworthy! I don't consider it a massive win to be 5-10 percent less than an F-35 -- and spoiler alert! they usually aren't cheaper anyway!

This is again you confusing "cost stability" with a cheaper price. that is not the same thing. even if we say the F-35 entail additional cost risk, we still have a "cushion" for additional costs that comes in under the Rafale price unless we believe that the Swiss F-35 is going to increase by 25 percent.
Anyone will take saving billions now with the risk that the price may increase slightly in the future. You said yourself, the Rafale price is established-- I agree!

Your arguement my friend can not be "You should pay an extra 1 billion or 2 billion to get Rafales, because even though the F-35 is billions less there may be a chance you have to pay more later!" No wonder the F-35 is winning when it meets the Rafale. thats the worst sales strategy I've ever seen. LM can't promise it won't get worse, but you can't promise it will ever be better.

It's unclear what sort of package the Swiss are getting, how their upgrades are planned etc.

Dunno why you think I said the Rafale is cheap. Just pointing out that the F-35's true costs are unknown, it doesn't matter if it's cheaper than the Rafale or not. As per HAL, they pointed out that costs of production in India will drop by half as more jets are produced. While M2000 spares and maintenance cost €8000 per hour in France, the same in India is less than €4000. So the Rafale will get cheaper over time in India, so I personally don't really care about these things.

Rafale is €10000, if India achieves half that, then we will save more than €2B over the life of 36 aircraft.

I am discussing this only 'cause you brought it up. My point has always been that the F-35's still in development and is years away from finishing. So there's no point in comparing it to operational aircraft. Simply put, the F-35 won't get cheaper, it will only get more expensive.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Quick change the subject!

Didn't you realise that this was to show the crucial importance of operational testing that you're trying to play down?

 

[Panzerjager]

It's unclear what sort of package the Swiss are getting, how their upgrades are planned etc.

Dunno why you think I said the Rafale is cheap. Just pointing out that the F-35's true costs are unknown, it doesn't matter if it's cheaper than the Rafale or not. As per HAL, they pointed out that costs of production in India will drop by half as more jets are produced. While M2000 spares and maintenance cost €8000 per hour in France, the same in India is less than €4000. So the Rafale will get cheaper over time in India, so I personally don't really care about these things.

Rafale is €10000, if India achieves half that, then we will save more than €2B over the life of 36 aircraft.

I am discussing this only 'cause you brought it up. My point has always been that the F-35's still in development and is years away from finishing. So there's no point in comparing it to operational aircraft. Simply put, the F-35 won't get cheaper, it will only get more expensive.

my point is that an F-35 can keep getting more expensive before it reaches Rafale prices and that is a problem that is ignored by a majority of Rafale fans obsessing about F-35s costs. its largely immaterial even if F-35 requires additional costs its still going to be less money than the "known quantity" and not by a small amount. The F-35 could blow its cost margins by 20 percent and still save money. So when cost comes up many are hoping that distracting with "unknown risk" is going to fool people vs known costs.

I would presume the cost goes up for everyone my friend. Rafale F4 will cost more than Rafale F3 its the nature of the beast and not unique to the F-35.
The Gripen is the cheapest out there. It won already, so lets see what else is there? looking the F-35 is surprisingly not as costly as the Rafale even with potential cost escalations and according to herciv all the prices are "certified" (???) by the US Government Which does add more stability to say nothing of them buying them in batches of hundreds. Rafale fans are not looking in the mirror when it comes to costs. I am sure the already convinced cheer everytime an F-35 cost comes up, but if I look at both the Rafale is a lot of money and the F-35 is actually beating it. In areas that herciv pointed out, There things like additional weapons included, Canada is rebuilding their entire northern sector and F-35s are just a part of that. Finland and Swiss both compared Rafale and F-35 costs. I am thinking with UAE offered very high prices so UAE would not buy it?? very high estimated here;

United Arab Emirates – F-35 Joint Strike Fighter | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

The deep concern for many Rafale French posters here is that the F-35 is secretly as expensive as a Rafale it seems.

Didn't you realise that this was to show the crucial importance of operational testing that you're trying to play down?

I'm noticing you changed the subject when we are talking about costs is what I am noticing

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

my point is that an F-35 can keep getting more expensive before it reaches Rafale prices and that is a problem that is ignored by a majority of Rafale fans obsessing about F-35s costs. its largely immaterial even if F-35 requires additional costs its still going to be less money than the "known quantity" and not by a small amount. The F-35 could blow its cost margins by 20 percent and still save money. So when cost comes up many are hoping that distracting with "unknown risk" is going to fool people vs known costs.

I would presume the cost goes up for everyone my friend. Rafale F4 will cost more than Rafale F3 its the nature of the beast and not unique to the F-35.
The Gripen is the cheapest out there. It won already, so lets see what else is there? looking the F-35 is surprisingly not as costly as the Rafale even with potential cost escalations and according to herciv all the prices are "certified" (???) by the US Government Which does add more stability to say nothing of them buying them in batches of hundreds. Rafale fans are not looking in the mirror when it comes to costs. I am sure the already convinced cheer everytime an F-35 cost comes up, but if I look at both the Rafale is a lot of money and the F-35 is actually beating it. In areas that herciv pointed out, There things like additional weapons included, Canada is rebuilding their entire northern sector and F-35s are just a part of that. Finland and Swiss both compared Rafale and F-35 costs. I am thinking with UAE offered very high prices so UAE would not buy it?? very high estimated here;

United Arab Emirates – F-35 Joint Strike Fighter | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

The deep concern for many Rafale French posters here is that the F-35 is secretly as expensive as a Rafale it seems.

I'm noticing you changed the subject when we are talking about costs is what I am noticing

OK to speak of cost, and UAE cost why not:
So the UAE was about to order 50 F-35s and 18 MQ-9s for $23 billion when it changed its mind and instead bought 80 Rafales for $15 billion if you take out the price of the helicopters included in the contract. That's still a saving of $ 8 billion.

 

[Panzerjager]

OK to speak of cost, and UAE cost why not:
So the UAE was about to order 50 F-35s and 18 MQ-9s for $23 billion when it changed its mind and instead bought 80 Rafales for $15 billion if you take out the price of the helicopters included in the contract. That's still a saving of $ 8 billion.

UAE Buys 80 French Rafale Fighter Jets in $19 Billion Deal

The United Arab Emirates agreed to buy 80 Rafale fighter jets from France as part of a 17 billion-euro ($19 billion) deal signed during President Emmanuel Macron’s visit to the Gulf nation Friday.

www.bloomberg.com

"The United Arab Emirates agreed to buy 80 Rafale fighter jets from France as part of a 17 billion-euro ($19 billion) deal signed during President Emmanuel Macron’s visit to the Gulf nation Friday."

this says 19 billion (including the helicopters) you say that if we remove the 4 billion dollars for the 12 helicopters (HAHAHAHA) and go with the 15 billion dollars, we are looking at the very broad 187 million per Rafale total. vs the 10.4 billion (high estimate) For the UAE DSCA approaved (posted already my friend) sale of 50 F-35s (208 million each at the max level) in a contract that we all agree was inflated and as you say compared to Finland's far more modest 64 for 9.4 billion (143 million each -contract)
*These are of coarse broad and the most basic of methods but usually the more important details can escape it like weapons and extras I think that is important for fairnes

4 billion dollars for a dozen advanced Pumas is not at all strange. one is going to save money when you remove the 333 million dollar helicopters. well memed my friend.

as we already discussed the UAE deal seemed inflated on the f-35 on purpose. and you already mention the contrast with European prices. I do wonder if the US set the price high hoping to spike the deal,

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

UAE Buys 80 French Rafale Fighter Jets in $19 Billion Deal

The United Arab Emirates agreed to buy 80 Rafale fighter jets from France as part of a 17 billion-euro ($19 billion) deal signed during President Emmanuel Macron’s visit to the Gulf nation Friday.

www.bloomberg.com

"The United Arab Emirates agreed to buy 80 Rafale fighter jets from France as part of a 17 billion-euro ($19 billion) deal signed during President Emmanuel Macron’s visit to the Gulf nation Friday."

this says 19 billion (including the helicopters) you say that if we remove the 4 billion dollars for the 12 helicopters (HAHAHAHA) and go with the 15 billion dollars, we are looking at the very broad 187 million per Rafale total. vs the 10.4 billion (high estimate) For the UAE DSCA approaved (posted already my friend) sale of 50 F-35s (208 million each at the max level) in a contract that we all agree was inflated and as you say compared to Finland's far more modest 64 for 9.4 billion (143 million each -contract)
*These are of coarse broad and the most basic of methods but usually the more important details can escape it like weapons and extras I think that is important for fairnes

4 billion dollars for a dozen advanced Pumas is not at all strange. one is going to save money when you remove the 333 million dollar helicopters. well memed my friend.

as we already discussed the UAE deal seemed inflated on the f-35 on purpose. and you already mention the contrast with European prices. I do wonder if the US set the price high hoping to spike the deal,

If you remove the 10 billion for armaments from the F-35 contract, I can remove the 2 billion for helicopters and the 2 billion for armaments from the Rafale contract. And now what is more credible 2 billion for 12 helicopters and all the support that implies or 10 billion for armaments instead of 2 billion? The real cost is being hidden in a very non-expert way, isn't it?

 

[Optimist]

Quick change the subject!

You are messing up the game. It is to tease the fanboys, not decimate them. Of course the vanilla f-35 is cheaper than the vanilla Rafale. The last two comps with Swiss and Finns said so.

To get something to work, India paid $160m flyaway, this contract for the M in euro, 3.42 for 36 planes 1.7 for ISE development =142.2 convert USD $156.3m.. Only a little bit less than the original.

The flyaway F-35A FMS ~$82m + 3.5% fms = $85m lot 15/16/17. lot 14 was $79+FMS

then Pic talks about capability. LOL ...Block 2 was better than the Rafale. Only because block 1 couldn't fire weapons yet. It only gets worst for the Rafale from there. blk 3F had more than a 20:1 loss exchange at red flag 2017, Their F4 2030 concludes after Block4 for the F-35 2029. It is still a chalk and cheese comparison.

 

[randomradio]

my point is that an F-35 can keep getting more expensive before it reaches Rafale prices and that is a problem that is ignored by a majority of Rafale fans obsessing about F-35s costs. its largely immaterial even if F-35 requires additional costs its still going to be less money than the "known quantity" and not by a small amount. The F-35 could blow its cost margins by 20 percent and still save money. So when cost comes up many are hoping that distracting with "unknown risk" is going to fool people vs known costs.

I would presume the cost goes up for everyone my friend. Rafale F4 will cost more than Rafale F3 its the nature of the beast and not unique to the F-35.
The Gripen is the cheapest out there. It won already, so lets see what else is there? looking the F-35 is surprisingly not as costly as the Rafale even with potential cost escalations and according to herciv all the prices are "certified" (???) by the US Government Which does add more stability to say nothing of them buying them in batches of hundreds. Rafale fans are not looking in the mirror when it comes to costs. I am sure the already convinced cheer everytime an F-35 cost comes up, but if I look at both the Rafale is a lot of money and the F-35 is actually beating it. In areas that herciv pointed out, There things like additional weapons included, Canada is rebuilding their entire northern sector and F-35s are just a part of that. Finland and Swiss both compared Rafale and F-35 costs. I am thinking with UAE offered very high prices so UAE would not buy it?? very high estimated here;

United Arab Emirates – F-35 Joint Strike Fighter | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

The deep concern for many Rafale French posters here is that the F-35 is secretly as expensive as a Rafale it seems.

I'm noticing you changed the subject when we are talking about costs is what I am noticing

Any cost increase Rafale will face will be predictable. Cost overruns since the program began was only 4%. So Rafale customers get a stable and predictable increase in costs. Otoh, F-35's costs are still not decided. We still don't know what the upper limit is.

Officially, they are saying prices will rise from Lot 15. But they haven't said when it will stabilise.

And different partners will have to pay different prices for upgrades. So first movers like Israel and Australia will end up paying more than Finland and Canada, and in some cases many of the jets will not even get the upgrades, rendering them useless for combat. So how do you cater for such things in the price?

Btw, F-35 contracts were determined by removing 20% of its flight hours by offloading it into simulators.

Swiss decision rolls in F-35’s favour

Let’s begin by the obvious: Finland isn’t Switzerland, and HX isn’t AIR2030. It still would be wrong to say that the Swiss decision, and especially the way it was made, wouldn&#82…

corporalfrisk.com

Perhaps more worrying is how the aircraft became 3 billion euros cheaper to operate – by offloading flight hours into simulators. This is certainly one of those ‘Yes, but…’-arguments.

In other words, seems the Swiss have asked main operators about simulators versus real flight hours, and the USAF has returned with a 20% lower number compared to the USN, AdA, and LW.

Apparently, F-35's 150 hours per year were compared with 180 hours per year for other competitors to get a lower price.

So they have already artificially reduced the cost of the F-35 by pruning its flight hours. My guess is, they will increase it citing operational inefficiencies due to lack of real-world training in the future. 'Cause I doubt there's anything special about the F-35's simulators versus what others have. And even if there was, other competitors can build as good or better simulators in a very short time.

So, on a per hour basis, both service life and flying hours, the Rafale is obviously cheaper, even if the F-35 is cheaper on paper.

 

[Herciv]

by all means compare apples to apples all you please the F-35A is still not as costly.

You're commiting a logical contresens.
Do you know that even an apple and an orange can me compare if you use the good criteria ? For example when I go to a shop I can compare the apple's price to an orange's price since both are use for my breakfast. Of course both have very different tastes and a very different way to grow.
WIth the same logic comparing rafale's and F-35's can very well be done If you add the mission they are made for.