Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Bon Plan]

is that your retort when we post factual evidence that the Rafale failed vs your made up story about daddy Biden coming in and waving a magic wand at the last minute that made the Rafale fall short despite years of evaluations? its never the Rafale's fault you see. its literal perfection.

In the South Korean case, against F15, wasn't it clear ? once again the pressure of US....
It was the same with Switzerland :

Rafale ou F-35 ? La Suisse face à un choix cornélien pour ses nouveaux avions de combat

Le Conseil fédéral de Suisse doit débattre mercredi 30 juin des offres de Dassault, Lockheed Martin, Boeing et du consortium Eurofighter pour renouveler sa flotte d'avions de chasse. Les rumeurs ont donné successivement le Rafale et le F35 gagnants. Le choix est difficile, car il soulève des...

www.lesechos.fr

"The first rumors gave Dassault's Rafale the winner of the competition but, in recent days, leaks in the press are betting on Lockheed Martin's F35."
recent days = Biden trip.

Comment la Suisse justifie-t-elle son choix du F-35A ? - Aerobuzz

Il y a deux semaines, le Rafale était donné vainqueur de la compétition Air 2030. Mais au bout des tirs au but, c’est finalement le F-35 qui l’emporte. Comment analyser ce choix qui prend bien du monde à contre-pied ? Le communiqué du conseil fédéral suisse qui l’annonce officiellement n’en fait...

www.aerobuzz.fr

"Two weeks ago, the Rafale was declared the winner of the Air 2030 competition. But at the end of the penalty shootout, it was ultimately the F-35 which won."
The rest of the article explain that LM made a last minute special discount (a Biden discount ?) to win the prize. I will be pleased to see the spare parts prices growing after some years for our richest Swiss neighbors....

I just hope we will not be idiot enough to give them some air cover when their F35 will be grounded, for exemple after a crash in the alps....

 

[Rajput Lion]

It could take a while. Because when one problem is finally solved, 3 others have appeared and it's been going on for 15 years!

This is precisely why I don't support F-35s for IAF. With Rafale, we've got a mature all-weather, all-mission capable bird. We just need to order more(hopefully coming soon).

 

[Spitfire6]

Yes, the Swiss evaluation clearly proved that F-35 is technologically more advance than Rafale in terms of both low radar signature and SA.

However, this is just one side of the story. The way USAF is suffering with F-35s(Block-4), it's quite obvious that it ain't no wonder bird until those issues are completely sorted, IMO.

its already a huge upgrade and then they keep adding to it endlessly according to the GAO:

The third contributing factor to schedule delays was the addition of new capabilities. The most recent Block 4 schedule includes capabilities thatwere not part of the earlier plans. Specifically, according to programofficials, the overall delay in Block 4 development was also due to theaddition of 25 capabilities added as part of a reprioritization of Block 4capabilities. The 2021 pause in Block 4 work mentioned above and thedesire to complete some capabilities earlier than planned led the programto reprioritize Block 4 capabilities in the latest schedule.


one can imagine an "endless situation" the idea of a "truncated" upgrade is the only thing that is stopping the deluge. this will likely cause prioritization rather than the idea that there are over 100 "number 1 priorities" and all inclusive while of course adding more and more.

 

[Spitfire6]

In the South Korean case, against F15, wasn't it clear ? once again the pressure of US....

Stop telling us that the US outmuscles France. We get it. your defense umbrella and diplomatic pull is not as powerful. I don't know why you have to keep telling us that the French can't beat the Americans in terms of power and clout including right next door in Switzerland.

It was the same with Switzerland :

Rafale ou F-35 ? La Suisse face à un choix cornélien pour ses nouveaux avions de combat

Le Conseil fédéral de Suisse doit débattre mercredi 30 juin des offres de Dassault, Lockheed Martin, Boeing et du consortium Eurofighter pour renouveler sa flotte d'avions de chasse. Les rumeurs ont donné successivement le Rafale et le F35 gagnants. Le choix est difficile, car il soulève des...

www.lesechos.fr

"The first rumors gave Dassault's Rafale the winner of the competition but, in recent days, leaks in the press are betting on Lockheed Martin's F35."
recent days = Biden trip.

OMG the rumors changed!?

rumors are facts now.

Comment la Suisse justifie-t-elle son choix du F-35A ? - Aerobuzz

Il y a deux semaines, le Rafale était donné vainqueur de la compétition Air 2030. Mais au bout des tirs au but, c’est finalement le F-35 qui l’emporte. Comment analyser ce choix qui prend bien du monde à contre-pied ? Le communiqué du conseil fédéral suisse qui l’annonce officiellement n’en fait...

www.aerobuzz.fr

"Two weeks ago, the Rafale was declared the winner of the Air 2030 competition. But at the end of the penalty shootout, it was ultimately the F-35 which won."
The rest of the article explain that LM made a last minute special discount (a Biden discount ?) to win the prize. I will be pleased to see the spare parts prices growing after some years for our richest Swiss neighbors....

I just hope we will not be idiot enough to give them some air cover when their F35 will be grounded, for exemple after a crash in the alps....

We cannot take away from the Swiss their honesty and seriousness and this figure is undoubtedly authentic. But why is the F-35 the least expensive of the four competitors?

Probably because Lockheed Martin has...

the rest of the article is cut off for me but this does not hold of the blackmail you alluded to but a "biden discount"?? and even if it is a "last minute" price so what as far as Switzerland is concerned? that is called driving a hard bargain isn't it? and why does "biden" even need to be there to offer it anyway? telephones don't exist? LM can't just do it themselves?

I don't understand why you are in such a hurry to show us that the French can't compete and don't understand how to do this stuff in order to protect the scantity of the Rafale?


"you see the Rafale is perfect, its just the people who manage and sell it who are complete naive idiots"

this is not 2021. Things have changed. Herciv is telling us you are a regional power now. that your umbrella is real and ready to protect Europe. On the other hand France is blindsided constantly and fail to understands the basics of Europe. its clearly the weak horse in Europe compared to the US. France does not offer better deals or a better umbrella.

We have in this in Canada too. a bunch of idiots want to shrug off the US and pay hundreds of billions of dollars to break away from the US and do everything ourselves. its not only impossible, its stupid and we will never compete with the US anyway who is also of course our closest ally and largest trading partner. Why are we supposed to reinvent the wheel instead of cooperating like sane people since we are not even enemies to begin with?

You keep acting as though the US is an evil oppressor of France. Throughout Europe the US is seen not as an oppressor but a powerful ally and friend. its very much like many French people are speaking a completely different cultural language from the rest of Europe. France is convinced everyone fells as "oppressed" as they are. in Poland they have a higher regard for Americans than the Americans do themselves.

"don't you want to tell the Americans to go away and you can buy French weapons at higher costs and spend tens of billions more per year to get less?" its a wonder no one takes such a "deal"

its like everyone is happily married and you are offering them a bitter expensive divorce instead. is it any wonder that they continue with the Americans? even in the above you assume the Swiss will be unhappy and full of regret. practically begging France to come help the Swiss save themselves from their awful decision. What if the Swiss get the F-35 and are perfectly content?

you keep telling us the American have the power and the clout. the US is a super power. France can't replace that, nor can France unite Europe behind their banner and convince them to create a military apparatus that would rival or even replace the United States. It would be impossibly expensive and not sustainable. Most European countries are not interested in creating a niche fighter as symbolic freedom and of course when Europe did do such a thing and made the Eurofighter, France bailed out of it, like they bailed out of NATO because they are not reliable and to this day the French insult the Eurofighter and compete against the Eurofighter while wondering why they are not more liked and trusted.

you are a terrible advocate because rather paint France as naive and pathetic in order to help the Rafale rather than to see the big picture that your friend Herciv wants. I'm enjoying it very much. perhaps you too should talk, I keep getting narrative whiplash

 

[Spitfire6]

I just hope we will not be idiot enough to give them some air cover when their F35 will be grounded, for exemple after a crash in the alps....

if the Swiss are the victims of American Blackmail as you previously insisted why wouldn't you help the Swiss when your fellow European was in need?

 

[Spitfire6]

This is precisely why I don't support F-35s for IAF. With Rafale, we've got a mature all-weather, all-mission capable bird. We just need to order more(hopefully coming soon).

thats perfectly fine. The reason club Rafale is in this thread is that they are always obsessed with what they lost rather than what they won.

they gained India but they lost Europe and so here we are. There are so many F-35s on order there are questions of if supply can meet demand. the last 3 years have been a further windfall for the F-35, and the French simply can't offer a better deal and they know it. As I already described there are acceptable reasons for this and unacceptable reasons for this. One must say the Rafale is perfect, but Dassault sales and marketing is simply not up to the task, or France itself in terms of its regional credibility.

it never helps that the French never leave the door open. a smart people would say "we are sorry to hear you are buying from someone else, but we are here if you changed your mind"

instead Switzerland joins a whole list of countries that are guilty of wronging France (ironically Germany is forgiven?) and France burns more ties. being on France's naughty list is a high honor and ever expanding. The temper tantrums are fun to see, but usually children grow out of them...

 

[Herciv]

I understand plenty thanks to the detailed explanations you provided from the canopy manufacturer and the lockheed publication "code one" it was very informative, and your rebuttal was found to be wanting. For one thing the F-35 Canopy is not just plexiglass LOL

DO you undesstand why GKN has to double its line of canopy ?

GKN Aerospace to double F-35 canopy production capacity - MM Media

US-based GKN Aerospace has announced plans to double the F-35 canopy production capacity of its Garden Grove, California, site, creating more than 100 new jobs. A customer investment of up to $150 million will support tools and equipment for the ‘state of the art’ new production line, which will...

www.machinery-market.co.uk

Do you think that LM is on the way to double its own production of F-35 ?

Then why ? That's very simple. It was a JPO request because there's a shortcoming in these canopy stress.
This canopy is stupid since it is a one part canopy. And all the canopy has to be changed when it has been to much stressed by heat. In other planes only the front part can be changed. This is much easier and cheaper. The canopy in itself is a high technology but the HMD taking into account the evolving distortion during the flight thanks to a model is much more impressive. But this is also done with scorpion for the rafale or every plane the scorpion has been adapted to.

You know the good news ? Rafale pilots don't rely on their only HMD, they can always used their HUD. By construction the F-35 has no B plan to the HMD.

 

[Spitfire6]

DO you undesstand why GKN has to double its line of canopy ?

GKN Aerospace to double F-35 canopy production capacity - MM Media

US-based GKN Aerospace has announced plans to double the F-35 canopy production capacity of its Garden Grove, California, site, creating more than 100 new jobs. A customer investment of up to $150 million will support tools and equipment for the ‘state of the art’ new production line, which will...

www.machinery-market.co.uk

its explained in the very link that you posted. is this some kind of strange test?

You know the good news ? Rafale pilots don't rely on their only HMD, they can always used their HUD. By construction the F-35 has no B plan to the HMD.

The pilot can actually just look down. the HUD is a Display. its an instrument. it stands for "Heads Up Display."

There is also no Canopy between the pilots eyeballs and the Helmet Mounted Display, its just a "HUD" that is mounted to the helmet instead of the instrument console.


Is the pilot putting his face on the canopy and then putting his helmet on over the canopy? I'm confused.

 

[Herciv]

Things are heating up between the JPO and international customers. The Norwegians are no longer hiding their irritation and have indicated that they don't want an intermediate version. The Dutch will go along with it, and the Danes have found a solution to deliver the F-16s to the Ukrainians anyway.

Denmark to bring home F-35 jets from Arizona amid upgrade delays

International customers are wary of delays resulting from Lockheed Martin's TR-3 aircraft upgrade rippling through their delivery schedules.

www.defensenews.com

PARIS — Denmark plans to bring home its six F-35 Joint Strike Fighters currently being used to train pilots in the U.S. as the delivery schedule for an upgraded version of the aircraft continues to slip.

The six Danish F-35 jets in TR-2 configuration stationed at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona will be repatriated to the Royal Danish Air Force’s Skrydstrup air base, the Defence Ministry said in a statement on Wednesday. They’ll join the four stealth fighters already there to bring the country’s operational F-35s to ten, as Denmark prepares to phase out its fleet of F-16 jets.


Lockheed Martin is running out of space to park undelivered F-35 jets amid hardware and software delays linked to the Technology Refresh 3 update, or TR-3, whose full delivery will be delayed into 2025, the U.S. Government Accountability Office reported in May. That’s disrupting fleet-replacement plans by the likes of Denmark, Belgium and Norway, whose F16s have been flying for more than 40 years, and whose fleets are counted in dozens of aircraft rather than hundreds.

“It’s very positive that we have now found a solution, so that the delays from the manufacturer affect us as little as possible,” Defence Minister Troels Lund Poulsen said in the statement. “F-35 fighter jets are a major investment for Denmark that will be important for our defense and security for many years to come, and it’s crucial that we follow the phase-in closely.”

The TR-3 software, originally planned for summer 2023, continues to be unstable, the GAO reported in May, with the watchdog saying some test pilots had to reboot their entire radar and electronic-warfare systems mid-flight to get them back online. The update includes improved cockpit displays and more on-board computing power, and is supposed to serve as the basis for a further upgrade known as Block 4 that adds new weapon and electronic-warfare capabilities.


Lockheed Martin will initially deliver F-35 jets with a limited version of TR-3 that can only be used for training purposes, Denmark said. The Danish jets in the older TR-2 configuration will be repatriated as aircraft with the TR-3 software and hardware upgrade are delivered to Luke Air Force Base, the Defence Ministry said.

Bringing home the TR-2 jets will allow Denmark to maintain the operational milestones for phasing in of the F-35 and increase the training level of pilots and support personnel at Skrydstrup, while allowing pilot training at Luke AFB to continue, the Defence Ministry said.

The Danish move feeds into fears by other European F-35 customers, present and future, that their carefully calibrated aircraft-delivery and upgrade schedules could be perturbed by the TR-3 saga.

While the Netherlands and Norway already operate fleets of more than 30 F-35 jets and therefore face less urgency than Denmark or a country such as Belgium, which is yet to receive its first F-35, the delays risk pushing back full operational capability.


Defense officials in Norway said they have made their concerns clear to the Pentagon’s Joint Program Office, which represents the U.S. and international governments involved in the F-35 program. Oslo’s fear in particular is Lockheed Martin feeding a salad of halfway solutions and different versions into the production pipeline that would grow to be unmanageable.

“We don’t want interim configurations,” said a Norwegian defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.

The Netherlands anticipated development delays and in late 2022 requested delivery of six aircraft in the TR-2 configuration rather than the upgraded version, saying deliveries could continue through to March, according to an annual government progress report published April 2.

The Dutch were slated to get their first TR-3 configured F-35 in late 2024, and should the software not be available then, the delays will have a “limited impact” on plans to stand up the third Dutch F-35 squadron in the middle of 2027, according to the report.


Denmark has purchased 27 F-35s, and the remaining aircraft will be delivered in TR-3 configuration “towards 2027,” the Danish ministry said. The situation isn’t expected to affect the donation of F-16s to Ukraine, nor Denmark’s obligations to NATO in a crisis situation, according to the Defence Ministry.

The country will stop training Ukrainian F-16 pilots in Denmark after 2024 as Skrydstrup air base switches fully to the F-35, Poulsen was reported as saying at a press conference with his Norwegian counterpart Bjørn Arild Gram on Monday.

The Danish Ministry of Defence didn’t immediately respond to questions regarding the timeline for repatriating the six aircraft from the U.S. or the delivery of the remaining 17 F-35s.

Sebastian Sprenger in Cologne, Germany, contributed to this report.

 

[Herciv]

The pilot can actually just look down. the HUD is a Display. its an instrument. it stands for "Heads Up Display."

There is also no Canopy between the pilots eyeballs and the Helmet Mounted Display, its just a "HUD" that is mounted to the helmet instead of the instrument console.

It would have been great if the canopy was opaque. But it's not. The HUD has to be conform to the real objects evolving outside. It can be as huge as 20° angle difference if the canopy distorsion is not correctly corrected.

 

[Herciv]

As soon as the model of distorsion inside the HMD is not anymore align on the real distorsion then problems begins. And this happens very quickly du to heat when the F-35 has to go above mach1.

 

[Spitfire6]

It would have been great if the canopy was opaque. But it's not. The HUD has to be conform to the real objects evolving outside. It can be as huge as 20° angle difference if the canopy distorsion is not correctly corrected.

As soon as the model of distorsion inside the HMD is not anymore align on the real distorsion then problems begins. And this happens very quickly du to heat when the F-35 has to go above mach1.

You are seemingly mixed up in the differences between an instrument display and a sensor. if an F-35 flies into dense fog the HMD still displays information to the pilot just like a HUD would. The canopy has no effect on the relationship from the pilots face to the Display in his helmet, just like there is no effect between the HUD and a pilots eyeballs if he hits a giant bug while flying in a Rafale and his view is completely ruined and obscured.

in fact that is one of the reasons a HUD exists. it can feed information to the pilot despite limited visibility.

I don't understand where the confusion is regarding HMD vs HUD and the canopy distortion as you seem to be conflating and confusing multiple subjects?

they could spray an entire F-35 canopy black and the helmet display would still work because it is data presented to the pilot via external sensors. an HMD is not a canopy. a HUD is also not a canopy, although some aircraft have in the past projected the HUD on a flat canopy section.

anyone who has flown at night with a HUD or HMD can tell you that one doesn't need to see outside of the canopy in order to get information from the illuminated display.

in fact the pilot can even close his eyeballs and the HUD and HMD will continue to display the information even when is not looking. HMD and HUD are completely unaware that no one is looking at the projections and data they display.

HMDs and HUDs do not get their information from the Canopy, they get them from the aircraft's sensors and other data collectors and then DISPLAY them to the pilot.

 

[Spitfire6]

Things are heating up between the JPO and international customers. The Norwegians are no longer hiding their irritation and have indicated that they don't want an intermediate version. The Dutch will go along with it, and the Danes have found a solution to deliver the F-16s to the Ukrainians anyway.

I remember when F-35 drama used to be mean something. this is so bland and meaningless. Canada said they would leave outright and Turkey got kicked out, now we read "Exciting" reports about how Norwegians are irritated. This is definitely the current drama, until the next piece of drama.

The Rafale India Scandal was far more interesting overall. I give Season 25 of the F-35, 2 thumbs down.

 

[Herciv]

in fact that is one of the reasons a HUD exists. it can feed information to the pilot despite limited visibility.

Nope. The HMD / HUD works at best when pilots have no visibility. But as soon as they have a good visibility distorsion from the canopy have to be taken into account. Most of the time the HMD / HUD are able to correct this evolving distorsion. But heat make things difficult to predict.

https://www.tafsm.org/AHPCRC9498/bulletins/v5n1-2/flow/plane.gif

That's why you have some project where the cockpit is totally design for virtual reality.
The X-59 is an extreme case, but given the targeted speeds, they had to find a solution for the canopy. This means that the canopy is set far back from the tip, and the front face is totally obscured, but the pilot has access to a fairly large head-up display that shows images from a forward-facing camera.

https://www.fastcompany.com/91009725/nasas-new-supersonic-jet-goes-so-fast-it-cant-have-a-windshield-heres-how-pilots-will-fly-it

 

[Spitfire6]

Nope. The HMD / HUD works at best when pilots have no visibility. But as soon as they have a good visibility distorsion from the canopy have to be taken into account. Most of the time the HMD / HUD are able to correct this evolving distorsion. But heat make things difficult to predict.

"Taken into account" how? account for what?

herciv, there is no canopy between the pilot and the HUD and the HMD. the Canopy exists outside the the HMD and HUD.

the canopy is not a sensor, the HMD and HUD are not sensors they are passive display systems that display information to the pilot. look at the above picture and explain to me how the canopy is between the HUD and the pilot. When you are done explaining that, you can then explain to me how the HUD fixes canopy distortion exactly and what "fix" even means.

are you trying to say that as the canopy distorts the HUD or HMD actually adjusto like an eyeglass lense to "fix" the distortion?

 

[Herciv]

herciv, there is no canopy between the pilot and the HUD and the HMD. the Canopy exists outside the the HMD and HUD.

This is a systems where there is a scene, several sensors and optics between them to transform the scene into somethings understandable for you.

Sensors are EODAS and your eyes. Your eyes are used to merge what is catch by the EODAS and the distorded reality arriving to your eyes through the canopy. Since the canopy is an optics by construction, the merge of both is only possible thanks to the HMD (or HUD in a less complet FoV).

 

[Spitfire6]

This is a systems where there is a scene, several sensors and optics between them to transform the scene into somethings understandable for you.

Sensors are EODAS and your eyes. Your eyes are used to merge what is catch by the EODAS and the distorded reality arriving to your eyes through the canopy. The merge of both is only possible thanks to the HMD (or HUD in a less complet FoV).

I'm sorry I don't still don't see what you are talking about and of course EODAS is not the Canopy either. I really don't get especially when we are talking about a passive display system.

it seems like its a complaint that is reaching especially because a HUD is not an eyeglass lense and its not reactive.

a HUD does not "See" through the Canopy so there is no effect of "distortion" either way. HUDS and HMDs are not built to fix distortion either. so saying "distortion will effect the HUD or HMD does not compute.

 

[Herciv]

I'm sorry I don't still don't see what you are talking about and of course EODAS is not the Canopy either. I really don't get especially when we are talking about a passive display system.

it seems like its a complaint that is reaching especially because a HUD is not an eyeglass lense and its not reactive.

a HUD does not "See" through the Canopy so there is no effect of "distortion" either way. HUDS and HMDs are not built to fix distortion either. so saying "distortion will effect the HUD or HMD does not compute.

I will try to reformulate.
The pilot has to see what's hapenning outside of the plane.
Firstly he is doing so like you in your car looking outside through the windows. But a big diffrence to your car windows is that its windows has a great curve and behave like a lens.
Secondly he has to see what its EODAS (or all the other sensors used to be merge) can give him as information. This is done thanks to the HMD.
The problem is the canopy distord the landscape and that distorsion has to be compensate. And this is also done thanks to the HMD. Problem is that the distorsion evolve with the fly condition especcially with pressure and heat. If the pressures can be follow by a good model and then can be compensate by micromechanical strutures this is not so easy with heat since above certains temperatures the PMMA struture is definitely changed.
This heat point is quite easy to have above mach1 on all fighters planes. That's why most of them use a two parts canopy.
The forefront canopy is made to be changed very often. This is a wearing part. But with the F-35 all the canopy is a wearing part much much more expensive.

 

[Optimist]

its explained in the very link that you posted. is this some kind of strange test?



The pilot can actually just look down. the HUD is a Display. its an instrument. it stands for "Heads Up Display."

There is also no Canopy between the pilots eyeballs and the Helmet Mounted Display, its just a "HUD" that is mounted to the helmet instead of the instrument console.


Is the pilot putting his face on the canopy and then putting his helmet on over the canopy? I'm confused.

I see the mistake you are making. You think these guys know about aircraft. Simply, they don't. Their posts are just Rafale propaganda.

 

[Spitfire6]

I will try to reformulate.
The pilot has to see what's hapenning outside of the plane.
Firstly he is doing so like you in your car looking outside through the windows. But a big diffrence to your car windows is that its windows has a great curve and behave like a lens.
Secondly he has to see what its EODAS (or all the other sensors used to be merge) can give him as information. This is done thanks to the HMD.
The problem is the canopy distord the landscape and that distorsion has to be compensate. And this is also done thanks to the HMD. Problem is that the distorsion evolve with the fly condition especcially with pressure and heat. If the pressures can be follow by a good model and then can be compensate by micromechanical strutures this is not so easy with heat since above certains temperatures the PMMA struture is definitely changed.
This heat point is quite easy to have above mach1 on all fighters planes.

I'm sorry I still don't see the point of what you are talking about and a lot is assumed.

The problem is the canopy distord the landscape and that distorsion has to be compensate. And this is also done thanks to the HMD.

How does the HMD "compensate"

The forefront canopy is made to be changed very often. This is a wearing part. But with the F-35 all the canopy is a wearing part much much more expensive.

What are the cost comparisons exactly? you said "much more" expensive. what are the dollar amounts?

I see the mistake you are making. You think these guys know about aircraft. Simply, they don't. Their posts are just Rafale propaganda.

You just don't understand that when the Canopy distorts the pilot is unable to read or use a sensor that is stuck directly onto his face, and in fact its actually better if there is no visibility, because then the HMD and HUD don't know there is distortion they should not be fixing.

its so simple...

luckily the F-22 isn't fast. it has a 1 piece canopy as well. the PMMA is probably the same type you get at your local construction store as well.