Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
Even After F-35’s TR-3 Software is Approved, Frequent Patches May Be Needed
When the F-35’s Tech Refresh 3 software is finally fully tested, debugged, and approved, frequent patches may still be needed to correct deficiencies, the Joint Program Office told Air & Space Forces Magazine.
When the TR-3 package is finally greenlit for operational use—allowing some 80 stored jets to be delivered—“future risks hinge upon whether TR-3 will require additional incremental software releases to test and implement critical fixes. If risk manifests in labs or flight test, TR-3 may require additional software releases (taking between two and six weeks per release),” a JPO spokesperson said.
The JPO had previously said initial software releases could come annually or every six months. In flight test, pilots are reporting frequently having to reboot the TR-3 software, in the air and on the ground.
The program office reiterated that “the first realistic opportunity for TR-3 aircraft acceptance is July 2024, and even that date bears risk.”
The TR-3 configuration includes a more powerful processor, associated software, and a new cockpit display, among other improvements, and it is the basis for the coming Block 4 upgrade to the fighter. Lockheed Martin has been producing new F-35s in that configuration since last year, but some 80 aircraft that have been completed can’t be delivered because testing of the TR-3 isn’t finished.
Lt. Gen. Michael Schmidt, the program executive officer, told Congress in April that the F-35 steering group—the international users of the fighter—have agreed to releasing a “truncated” version of the TR-3 in order to get deliveries moving again. However, Schmidt is waiting to see more stability in the software before he will sign off on accepting the new jets.
The JPO was not immediately able to explain what software stability metrics will satisfy Schmidt.
Users of the F-35 have been waiting 10 months for deliveries,and this has disrupted the transition from their older fighters to the F-35. The delays have far-ranging implications; provision of used F-16s to Ukraine, for example, depends on donor countries like the Netherlands and Belgium receiving their F-35s in a timely manner. U.S. Air Force units must continue to operate older types, spending more to maintain them and delaying maintainers and pilots from transition training.
The JPO and its industry partners are working intensively to fix “specific issues in TR-3 software,” the spokesperson explained, “to improve software stability on the ground and in the air.”
TR-3 acceptance “depends upon completing a stable, capable, and maintainable software build for release to flight test,” the spokesperson told Air & Space Forces Magazine.
Exasperated with chronic F-35 delays and especially the hold on deliveries, the House Armed Services Committee, in its mark of the 2025 defense bill, slashed the number of F-35s the services requested, diverting the money to more software integration capability, a new flying avionics testbed, additional test F-35s and other test capacity measures, in order to speed up testing.
When the F-35’s Tech Refresh 3 software is finally fully tested, debugged, and approved, frequent patches may still be needed to correct deficiencies, the Joint Program Office told Air & Space Forces Magazine.
When the TR-3 package is finally greenlit for operational use—allowing some 80 stored jets to be delivered—“future risks hinge upon whether TR-3 will require additional incremental software releases to test and implement critical fixes. If risk manifests in labs or flight test, TR-3 may require additional software releases (taking between two and six weeks per release),” a JPO spokesperson said.
The JPO had previously said initial software releases could come annually or every six months. In flight test, pilots are reporting frequently having to reboot the TR-3 software, in the air and on the ground.
The program office reiterated that “the first realistic opportunity for TR-3 aircraft acceptance is July 2024, and even that date bears risk.”
The TR-3 configuration includes a more powerful processor, associated software, and a new cockpit display, among other improvements, and it is the basis for the coming Block 4 upgrade to the fighter. Lockheed Martin has been producing new F-35s in that configuration since last year, but some 80 aircraft that have been completed can’t be delivered because testing of the TR-3 isn’t finished.
Lt. Gen. Michael Schmidt, the program executive officer, told Congress in April that the F-35 steering group—the international users of the fighter—have agreed to releasing a “truncated” version of the TR-3 in order to get deliveries moving again. However, Schmidt is waiting to see more stability in the software before he will sign off on accepting the new jets.
The JPO was not immediately able to explain what software stability metrics will satisfy Schmidt.
Users of the F-35 have been waiting 10 months for deliveries,and this has disrupted the transition from their older fighters to the F-35. The delays have far-ranging implications; provision of used F-16s to Ukraine, for example, depends on donor countries like the Netherlands and Belgium receiving their F-35s in a timely manner. U.S. Air Force units must continue to operate older types, spending more to maintain them and delaying maintainers and pilots from transition training.
The JPO and its industry partners are working intensively to fix “specific issues in TR-3 software,” the spokesperson explained, “to improve software stability on the ground and in the air.”
TR-3 acceptance “depends upon completing a stable, capable, and maintainable software build for release to flight test,” the spokesperson told Air & Space Forces Magazine.
Exasperated with chronic F-35 delays and especially the hold on deliveries, the House Armed Services Committee, in its mark of the 2025 defense bill, slashed the number of F-35s the services requested, diverting the money to more software integration capability, a new flying avionics testbed, additional test F-35s and other test capacity measures, in order to speed up testing.
F-35 Tech Upgrade Slips to 2025; ‘Truncated’ Version in the Fall
April 23, 2024 | By John A. Tirpak
Deliveries of full-up Tech Refresh Three-equipped F-35s, previously expected in the middle of this year, now won’t come until 2025, Lockheed Martin officials reported on their April 23 first-quarter earnings call. In the meantime, they hope to deliver a so-called “truncated” version of the hardware/software package this fall.
Chief Executive Officer Jim Taiclet said there will be two releases of TR-3: a “combat training-capable” version that should be delivered in the third quarter of this and a “fully combat-capable” version in 2025. Lockheed has been storing newly-built F-35s with the TR-3 pending completion of testing and integration. Some 70 aircraft are in storage at an undisclosed location, awaiting a green light for delivery.
The Joint Program Office has said for several months that it has been discussing release of a “truncated” TR-3 package in order to get deliveries moving again and prevent further disruption to the units in a number of countries that have been waiting for their F-35s.
The delays are due to supply chain issues with TR-3 components as well as ongoing testing of the configuration, which comprises a processor and software package, along with other new gear that underwrites the F-35 Block 4 upgrade of the international fighter.
“We are wringing out all of the software through all of the new hardware and integrating it into all the aircraft,” which has “taken longer than our team predicted,” Taiclet said.
Meanwhile, the F-35 program office says the Block 4 program will be “reimagined,” with many of the planned capabilities now deferred to the 2030s.
As a result of the testing and supply delays, Taiclet said only 75 to 110 F-35s will be delivered in calendar 2024, versus a goal of 156. He noted that even a more modest schedule assumes “timely receipt” of components.
Taiclet said the F-35 program is highly concurrent, with “development, production, and sustainment” all happening simultaneously, which can lead to bottlenecks.
“We are bringing all relevant resources across our company and collaborating closely with our customers and suppliers to fully implement the TR-3 capabilities that everybody’s looking forward to getting,” he said.
System stability is improving from prior software versions into “the combat training capable configuration” and flight testing of this configuration is now underway, he said. Lockheed was “maturing the system with approximately 95 percent of TR-3 capabilities in this flight test program,” Taiclet added, with “continual software updates to support capability insertions over the Block 4 program and beyond.”
The truncated capability means Lockheed Martin “can get these jets in the hands of squadron, wing and regional commanders so that they can start training their pilots on them and training their maintenance organizations, and also get their base infrastructure, spare parts, tools, everything else.” The final software load for this release will be available “sometime in the next few months.” However, he insisted those jets “could be deployed into actual combat operations” if necessary.
The JPO said Release 1 is called 40P01 and will go out “when the code is stable, capable, and maintainable to deliver TR-3 configured aircraft for use in combat training,” but only with Release 2—40P02—will full combat capability be realized.
The F-35 partners and other “stakeholders” have approved TR-3 truncation acceptance criteria,” the JPO said.
When TR-3 is fully delivered, users will already be well-versed in “the operational patterns and procedures on how to actually fly the jet in combat,” Taiclet said.
He noted that, despite the TR-3 delays, the F-35 remains a good seller. The Czech Republic recently became the 18th country to buy the jet, and the U.S. agreed to sell additional jets to Singapore.
The Lockheed estimates jibe with that of F-35 Program Executive Officer Lt. Gen. Michael Schmidt, who told the House Armed Services Committee tactical air panel on April 16 that the whole Block 4 program must be “re-imagined” due to supply and testing delays and shifting requirements.
In a 25-page prepared testimony for the hearing, which closed shortly after it began, Schmidt said that a “Technical Baseline Review” of the F-35 “assessed that numerous Block 4 capabilities will not deliver until the 2030s due to technical complexity, software efficiency, human and financial resourcing, flight test capacity, lab quality and capacity, and a lack of defined requirements.”
The Government Accountability Office has urged on several occasions that Congress separate Block 4 from the overall F-35 program and make it a Major Acquisition Program in its own right; due to its cost and complexity, and the better to highlight troubles. Schmidt said the JPO plans to create that “subprogram” next year.
Schmidt acknowledged to the House panel that “TR-3 has taken far too long to deliver.”
He explained that the TR-3 hardware design is not yet fully mature, and this is a “significant complicating factor in software integration.” The result is “low manufacturing yields of parts necessary for aircraft production.” That in turn has led to “using software to overcome hardware design maturity challenges.” An independent review of the software architecture found “we have a solid software architecture, but until the underlying hardware is fully mature, the F-35 program will continue to struggle with software integration efficiency.”
Taiclet said there’s a silver lining to the situation and that the company is adapting to imposed program changes, so there will be incremental “step function increases in capability every few years.” He noted the DOD recently extended the expected service life of the aircraft
Lockheed chief financial officer Jay Malave said the two-stage TR-3 release “really keep our production on track here in 2024″ by decreasing the aircraft Lockheed has to keep in storage.
Malave also acknowledged that the extension of TR-3 into two releases could hurt profitability on Lots 15-17, given that the timing of deliveries affects progress payments and incentive fees.
Lockheed is pursuing “anti-fragility” efforts with the F-35 supplier base to ensure multiple vendors of parts and components, Taiclet said.
The COVID-19 pandemic underscored that “we need to have second and maybe third sources and geographic diversity … having single sources outside the U.S. is probably not the best idea,” even if more supplies drive up prices, he said.
For example, the supply of F-35 canopies is “one of the big degraders we have,” Taiclet said, suggesting that the company relies on only one supplier for that element.
In his prepared HASC testimony, Schmidt said the JPO has been working on reducing concurrency in the program, and that the “reimagined” Block 4 has “established Capability Decision Points (CDPs) to rigorously assess the technical maturity of hardware and software and the readiness for introduction into F-35 aircraft production lots.”
The re-imagined upgrade now includes 88 “must-have” capability improvements, he said, and these include “common capabilities for electronic warfare; communication, navigation and identification; sustainment,” new weapons for the partners as well as U.S. service-unique weapons, and “partner-unique capabilities.”
Block 4 will have to consist of “what industry can actually deliver,” Schmidt said.
April 23, 2024 | By John A. Tirpak
Deliveries of full-up Tech Refresh Three-equipped F-35s, previously expected in the middle of this year, now won’t come until 2025, Lockheed Martin officials reported on their April 23 first-quarter earnings call. In the meantime, they hope to deliver a so-called “truncated” version of the hardware/software package this fall.
Chief Executive Officer Jim Taiclet said there will be two releases of TR-3: a “combat training-capable” version that should be delivered in the third quarter of this and a “fully combat-capable” version in 2025. Lockheed has been storing newly-built F-35s with the TR-3 pending completion of testing and integration. Some 70 aircraft are in storage at an undisclosed location, awaiting a green light for delivery.
The Joint Program Office has said for several months that it has been discussing release of a “truncated” TR-3 package in order to get deliveries moving again and prevent further disruption to the units in a number of countries that have been waiting for their F-35s.
The delays are due to supply chain issues with TR-3 components as well as ongoing testing of the configuration, which comprises a processor and software package, along with other new gear that underwrites the F-35 Block 4 upgrade of the international fighter.
“We are wringing out all of the software through all of the new hardware and integrating it into all the aircraft,” which has “taken longer than our team predicted,” Taiclet said.
Meanwhile, the F-35 program office says the Block 4 program will be “reimagined,” with many of the planned capabilities now deferred to the 2030s.
As a result of the testing and supply delays, Taiclet said only 75 to 110 F-35s will be delivered in calendar 2024, versus a goal of 156. He noted that even a more modest schedule assumes “timely receipt” of components.
Taiclet said the F-35 program is highly concurrent, with “development, production, and sustainment” all happening simultaneously, which can lead to bottlenecks.
“We are bringing all relevant resources across our company and collaborating closely with our customers and suppliers to fully implement the TR-3 capabilities that everybody’s looking forward to getting,” he said.
System stability is improving from prior software versions into “the combat training capable configuration” and flight testing of this configuration is now underway, he said. Lockheed was “maturing the system with approximately 95 percent of TR-3 capabilities in this flight test program,” Taiclet added, with “continual software updates to support capability insertions over the Block 4 program and beyond.”
The truncated capability means Lockheed Martin “can get these jets in the hands of squadron, wing and regional commanders so that they can start training their pilots on them and training their maintenance organizations, and also get their base infrastructure, spare parts, tools, everything else.” The final software load for this release will be available “sometime in the next few months.” However, he insisted those jets “could be deployed into actual combat operations” if necessary.
The JPO said Release 1 is called 40P01 and will go out “when the code is stable, capable, and maintainable to deliver TR-3 configured aircraft for use in combat training,” but only with Release 2—40P02—will full combat capability be realized.
The F-35 partners and other “stakeholders” have approved TR-3 truncation acceptance criteria,” the JPO said.
When TR-3 is fully delivered, users will already be well-versed in “the operational patterns and procedures on how to actually fly the jet in combat,” Taiclet said.
He noted that, despite the TR-3 delays, the F-35 remains a good seller. The Czech Republic recently became the 18th country to buy the jet, and the U.S. agreed to sell additional jets to Singapore.
The Lockheed estimates jibe with that of F-35 Program Executive Officer Lt. Gen. Michael Schmidt, who told the House Armed Services Committee tactical air panel on April 16 that the whole Block 4 program must be “re-imagined” due to supply and testing delays and shifting requirements.
In a 25-page prepared testimony for the hearing, which closed shortly after it began, Schmidt said that a “Technical Baseline Review” of the F-35 “assessed that numerous Block 4 capabilities will not deliver until the 2030s due to technical complexity, software efficiency, human and financial resourcing, flight test capacity, lab quality and capacity, and a lack of defined requirements.”
The Government Accountability Office has urged on several occasions that Congress separate Block 4 from the overall F-35 program and make it a Major Acquisition Program in its own right; due to its cost and complexity, and the better to highlight troubles. Schmidt said the JPO plans to create that “subprogram” next year.
Schmidt acknowledged to the House panel that “TR-3 has taken far too long to deliver.”
He explained that the TR-3 hardware design is not yet fully mature, and this is a “significant complicating factor in software integration.” The result is “low manufacturing yields of parts necessary for aircraft production.” That in turn has led to “using software to overcome hardware design maturity challenges.” An independent review of the software architecture found “we have a solid software architecture, but until the underlying hardware is fully mature, the F-35 program will continue to struggle with software integration efficiency.”
Taiclet said there’s a silver lining to the situation and that the company is adapting to imposed program changes, so there will be incremental “step function increases in capability every few years.” He noted the DOD recently extended the expected service life of the aircraft
Lockheed chief financial officer Jay Malave said the two-stage TR-3 release “really keep our production on track here in 2024″ by decreasing the aircraft Lockheed has to keep in storage.
Malave also acknowledged that the extension of TR-3 into two releases could hurt profitability on Lots 15-17, given that the timing of deliveries affects progress payments and incentive fees.
Lockheed is pursuing “anti-fragility” efforts with the F-35 supplier base to ensure multiple vendors of parts and components, Taiclet said.
The COVID-19 pandemic underscored that “we need to have second and maybe third sources and geographic diversity … having single sources outside the U.S. is probably not the best idea,” even if more supplies drive up prices, he said.
For example, the supply of F-35 canopies is “one of the big degraders we have,” Taiclet said, suggesting that the company relies on only one supplier for that element.
In his prepared HASC testimony, Schmidt said the JPO has been working on reducing concurrency in the program, and that the “reimagined” Block 4 has “established Capability Decision Points (CDPs) to rigorously assess the technical maturity of hardware and software and the readiness for introduction into F-35 aircraft production lots.”
The re-imagined upgrade now includes 88 “must-have” capability improvements, he said, and these include “common capabilities for electronic warfare; communication, navigation and identification; sustainment,” new weapons for the partners as well as U.S. service-unique weapons, and “partner-unique capabilities.”
Block 4 will have to consist of “what industry can actually deliver,” Schmidt said.
A reminder to the Greeks: the F-35 is still on the table. In April, it was said that the Greeks had two months to make up their minds...
Greece’s F-35 deal moves forward | eKathimerini.com
For 40 F-35s, they would have to pay $8.6 billion, i.e. as much as the Finns would have to pay for 64 F-35s. Basically, the Greeks will have to pay 50% more than the Finns...
Greece Modernizes Its Air Force With US F-35s & French Rafales
A little doubt, then, about the Greek signature for these F-35s, for which they were not entitled to the subsidies that the Finns obtained.
If so, this would be the F-35's second defeat against the Rafale and lead to the conclusion than when you have Rafale you don't need F-35 ...
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
Greece’s F-35 deal moves forward | eKathimerini.com
For 40 F-35s, they would have to pay $8.6 billion, i.e. as much as the Finns would have to pay for 64 F-35s. Basically, the Greeks will have to pay 50% more than the Finns...
Greece Modernizes Its Air Force With US F-35s & French Rafales
A little doubt, then, about the Greek signature for these F-35s, for which they were not entitled to the subsidies that the Finns obtained.
If so, this would be the F-35's second defeat against the Rafale and lead to the conclusion than when you have Rafale you don't need F-35 ...
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
Last edited:
it sounds like from the 2nd article they are moving forward with the F-35 purchase? you should perhaps try reading these articles before posting them
also it should be known that the 8.6 billion dollar is an estimate. we do not know what they will be paying until the final contract(s) are signed. Sounds like Finland got a great deal. https://simpleflying.com/greece-modernizes-air-force-fleet-us-f-35s-french-rafales/
Thats a pretty desperate conclusion, and one could look at such logic and also conclude that if you have Rafale you need other fighters to support Rafale since it operates in so many mixed air forces.
Using your same logic again we can then conclude that the Rafale is "defeated" should the Greeks finalize their F-35 purchase? and when I say "Defeated" I am using this strange idea of "defeat" you present and not the direct defeat the Rafale suffers when competing against the F-35 in places like Finland and Switzerland
This is a coping mechanism and a very obvious one at that. France is under the US umbrella. many countries do not buy US fighters and are still under the US "umbrella" France having an independent defense establishment but still being subject to the Americans (and NATO which is much the same thing) is proof that one need not "buy American" to be helped or protected by the US. In places Ukraine they get the US equipment for free.
everytime France loses to the F-35 we have to hear the same tired excuses. I don't know why France even bothers to compete when the conclusion is already foretold? most NATO countries don't have F-35s. New Zealand doesn't even have a fixed wing air force anymore and they're a part of 5 eyes which the inner circle of the US strategic alliances. Many Rafale clients also buy US fighters.
For too long the French have believed that Rafale is so unbelievably great, that the only way it could ever lose would be if interventions beyond tactical ability intervened. This isn't the case. the Rafale is not the best tactical fighter in the world. Its a very good fighter, but it is not the best. Rafale took 3rd place in Canada and Finland, and lost in Brazil to the Gripen.
Its excuse making for when the Rafale turns out to be 2nd class, just as optimist pointed out. Not even Dassault believes this, or else they would never compete again in any market that already has American aircraft involved or previously purchased, and yet poor Dassault, they must not read the opinions of French forums and the same diaspora of posters and understand they are wasting their money and time and setting themselves up to fail. (Dassault is very slow if we are to be honest) but I don't think that is what happens.
Last edited:
still bitter about that one too?
its interesting how obsessive the French are with the F-35 in this thread and all the attempts at overcompensation. more interesting still are comments like the above that show the French are really just unhappy about multiple losses across the spectrum and this is not just a thread about the F-35 for them but a chance to air their many grievances against a world that conspires against them.
France also needed help to take on Libya. They are not credible which is why they occupy this thread so fervently. The only hope is take down the leader and win by default. The French have no "umbrella" of their own to offer
It sounds like from the second article that the greeks has send no clear message in the two month deadline and that the US congress is still waiting ...it sounds like from the 2nd article they are moving forward with the F-35 purchase? you should perhaps try reading these articles before posting them
It sounds like from the articles that greeks would have to pay 50 % more expensive their F-35 compare to the finns
It sounds like from the second article that the french rafale made the F-35 not a so urgent need.
Nope. France has its own umbrella. This umbrella could even be expanded to the whole Europe.
How many of rafale clients have bought US fighters after having bought Rafale ? And How many of them have bought F-35, only F-15 EX like.
Last edited:
Mali was a french interest. Uk recently helped them, because they couldn't do it alone. As you know, it finished up that they kicked france out, a couple of years ago..