Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
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It sounds like from the second article that the greeks has send no clear message in the two month deadline and that the US congress is still waiting ...
It sounds like from the articles that greeks would have to pay 50 % more expensive their F-35 compare to the finns
the title of the article you posted:
Greece Modernizes Its Air Force With US F-35s & French Rafales
the articles are also using the the DSCA
The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Greece of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft and related equipment for an estimated cost of $8.6 billion.
The description and dollar value is for the highest estimated quantity and dollar value based on initial requirements. Actual dollar value will be lower depending on final requirements, budget authority, and signed sales agreement(s), if and when concluded.
I guess you are new to this or just generally don't know what you are talking about.
the DSCA approval to finland was 12.5 billion, but Finland ended up paying billions less:
you keep reading into things. The Greeks bought Rafales years back and are talking F-35s now. so there is clearly still a need despite Rafales.It sounds like from the second article that the french rafale made the F-35 not a so urgent need.
they must not need the F-35 after having Rafales! Oh? then why are they interested in the F-35s at all? when the Greeks get F-35s will you then say "ah but look how long it took them to decide to finally get F-35!! yet more proof!" ???
no I'm sorry that is not how this works. The French can't claim the Rafale was Usurped in Europe thanks to American control but then also say that France is a powerful European leader. You can't play the victim and blame the Americans for all your short comings while the Americans lead and sell over 500 F-35s to the people you "protect"
Europe is not interested in being lead by the French. I know the French poster here see themselves as the saviors of Europe but theyre not interested in you espeically compared to the United States, and this is according to years of French posting including the posting here in this thread where you bitterly complain about the F-35 which beats France's Rafale.
How many have chosen not to buy the Rafale at all and instead go for F-35s? this is pathetic and desperate which are not the qualities of a leader. The French would have to drop their victim mentality to be what you want, but they simply can't. You and your friends can't even admit that the F-35 beat Rafale soundly, and of course you poisoned the well long ago by breaking away from the Eurofighter program... France can't even mend that bridge. if you had something credible you wouldn't be blathering on about Canopy distortions as you get destroyed in your own European backyard. The lack of awareness of how distrusted and loathed the French are throughout Europe is truly a sight to behold. France has so little pull compared to the US in Europe its almost unreal. its the US that runs things there, especially now, and by you and your compatriots own admissions. even watching you try and tell us that the French Umbrella competes the United States is risible. no is interested in buying Rafales for the French umbrella. complaining that the US only sells F-35s because it puts F-35 clients under the aegis of the United States is another of admission of French weakness. Threads like this help demonstrate this and the failure of "french diplomacy" the world over. The more you post, the more out of touch and off-putting.
There is something about bitter and shrill complaining for years on end that destroys credibility the world over. its just like the Rafale, Europe is not buying what you are selling, and the US knows Europe better than you do.
Damn! This F-35 vs Rafale aka US/UK/Can/Aus/Nz vs France saga continues, lol
note who the problem children are, and wonder why they occupy this thread? and wonder at the manipulations. Herciv made sure to mention that the lifetime cost of the F-35 are now 2 trillion dollars in the US. but then neglected to tell anyone that the reason the number increased is that the US has announced they plan on flying F-35s until the year 2088, which is a revision of the 2060s retirement date. This is standard fare. F-35 sales in Europe are going up largely thanks to Russia. Also thanks to Russia Rafale sales around the globe are increasing as the void is filled in previous Russian influenced areas. However, this is not Europe.
No offence to the Indians in this thread, The French will always be happy to Sell Rafales so they are very keen on the middle east and Indian sales, but the crown Jewel is Europe and there they find themselves wanting desperately. Not all French people are like this lot, but these are the ones who give the French such a bad name. who shout French weaknesses as if they were virtues. and its one of the many things that has cost the Rafale against the F-35.
If the Rafale had an HMD, I'm sure it would be better than the F-35! but of course Rafale does not. This is then sold as virtue. The French then tell their potential clients they are actually very fortunate the Rafale is not the F-35, meanwhile the clients are very interested in the F-35. France will highlight the differences, when they should be highlighting the similarities. The French lose to the F-35 and then scramble to understand why. This has happened many times, and it never stops being funny. better still we get a myriad of excuses that actually highlight French weakness and incompetency, how do you lose to an F-35? well the French will gladly tell you and the reasons are illuminating
France has it's own deterence and won't ask to use it if needed. That's the umbrella. ANd this umbrella can be expanded to Europe.
Because US has no shortcomings ? The last one is when US made 6 or 7 months to allow a budget for Ukrain.
As rafale has no HMD it is by far more reliable than F-35. But now rafale has Scorpion but has a two pieces canopy way cheapper to change.
You are not even able to understand why the HMD is so high tech, and why each HMD is so specific to one pilot.
sorry mate you already told us for years how the US wins in Europe and why people choose the F-35. Bonplan just told us again in fact.
Daily reminder that the US has more power and influence than France in Europe.
I didn't say the US has no shortcomings, I said that the US leads Europe and is vastly more powerful and influential. This is according to you and your friends in fact. Why does the F-35 win?
Because of the American defence promises!
why does Rafale lose to the F-35? because the French promises simply do not or cannot compete with the US. This is according to your own words. If the French umbrella could compete with the US, you would not be complaining about how F-35 sales are really about the US umbrella.
if the situation was reversed the US would be complaining that it can't sell fighters in Europe because of the powerful French influence in the region and the strong French defense umbrella. But that is not what is happening is it? according to the head office of the F-35 over 500 F-35s will be flying in Europe under European colors. This is more than just 2 or 3 years ago. F-35 is gaining influence, not losing it.
do you see how this works? You obsess about the United States, and the American President doesn't even remember the French president's name.
I will tell you a little secret. Complaining about how the US bests you time and again is not the winning strategy you think. Complaining that the US has more power and influence over the French in Europe is to further prove that France is not the leader.
The entire French Psyche among those who want to "make France great again" must change in order to get what they desire. but this will not happen because then France would have to be accountable for its own failings which is simply impossible in their minds. so France luckily for the US will continue to be subservient to the Americans.
Telling people the Americans are the boss is not how you convince people you are the boss. The French would rather make excuses for the Rafale instead of seeing the big picture because many French posters here are under the mistaken impression that the Rafale is France.
France faces a quandary. Rafale is highly respectable for France's size and budget. However, being really great by French standards is not being really great by American standards. so the French are stuck in wanting to claim Rafale is a respectable silver medal for a country like France, while also upset that silver medals are not gold medals. This is further complicated by the fact that there are far more European operators of the Typhoon and they have their own standard of where the Rafale fits on the hierarchy . also France apparently refuses to change course on the Rafale. F-35 are more advanced than Rafales and the US can make far more of them. France has no answer to this other than French-hivemind conspiracies which actually make things worse for France overall.
so they provided more than France could dream but didn't do it fast enough for your taste? you really got them there. This is exactly my point. Sure the US does what France can only dream, but they took to long to do what France never could. See the F-35 as another Example of this mentality
I understand plenty thanks to the detailed explanations you provided from the canopy manufacturer and the lockheed publication "code one" it was very informative, and your rebuttal was found to be wanting. For one thing the F-35 Canopy is not just plexiglass LOL
This is perfect encapsulation of what I am talking about. You inform potential clients that the HMD they desire is not any good while telling them you can't offer one yourself.
great news! If the buyer wants an HMD Rafale doesn't have one - and thats a good thing!
its astounding how out of touch the French are and how they fail to understand the markets in which they attempt to compete. Dassault can't be as blind as some of the posters who attempt to defend the Rafale can they?
The French people in this thread are like a little child shouting "me too!" and trying to get the attention of others since the F-35 stole the show already. in typical French fashion you are late and trying to close the barn door long after the horse has bolted.
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Not even in their own backyard. Let alone their pacific interests. They will walk away, if China puts their feet to the fire.
Where?
We have our own one key nuclear deterrence (the GB system is a dual key one... incredible).
We are able to produce absolutely all weapon systems. Our limits are financial, not technical ones.
If we purchased Hawkey it's just because the R&D costs can't be sponged by export market. On the contrary USA purchased our RITA crypted communication system, our anti runaway bombs.
The sole real leaks was Swiss trial 1 : Rafale was the clear winner. But politics decided to purchase Gripen before being stopped.
You just have to move some weighting to change the final result.... As in South Korea when Rafale was first on F15 : suddenly a political clause appears about "the special relationship"... Even Swiss trial 2 : Rafale & ASTER was said winners, just before a Biden last travel to Bern to convict the swiss about the swiss banks future in USA....
NATO is the first that comes to mind. are you really trying to say that France is a nation that doesn't fall under various alignments and alliances with the US both formal and informal because it has its own independent arms industries?
The US has partaken in foriegn systems before. The idea that you think that is unique or some kind of measure of French independence or score keeping is childish and delusional.
this is the notion that a nations independence is measured in fighters. You can produce all the Rafales you please, you are not immune to the rule of the United States, and of course if the US tried to cut ties with France, the French political class would be flying across the Atlantic on their hands and knees begging to be taken back.
The Gripen was cheaper too remember.
The F-35 was cheaper than Rafale in switzerland. You just are determined to show the US is the real power in Europe aren't you?
we have a narrative clash. You keep telling us that France is weaker than the US. I agree the US rules Europe. but now we are running afoul of the other narrative you are trying to promote. that France is a strong independent nation capable of leading Europe post Russian invaston, if only the darn Americans would let France rule.
All of Europe knows where its bread is buttered. The French keep telling us they have butter somewhere, well not yet, but if they can get a cow, they make some in the future. the bread will come when they can purchase the oven.
The best thing Europe could do in French eyes is abandon the steady and sure hand of the US and its obvious leadership role in Europe, and instead gamble on the French, many of whom in Europe do not trust.
please understand and I am going to say this time and time again. by pointing out the US overpowers France, you consistently point out that France is the weaker horse.
lets go to the F-35 vs Rafale Narrative (this is an F-35 thread afterall)
The Rafale is allowed to lose to the F-35 for the following reasons.
1. The F-35 has better marketing/power points
2. The Americans cheat
3. people only buy the F-35 to get the military power of the US, so the US victory is inevitable.
The reasons the Rafale is not allowed to lose to the F-35
1. The F-35 is superior overall
2. The F-35 is less expensive than the rafale
3. the F-35 is more reliable than the rafale.
4. The nations buying F-35 may simply not be that impressed or even interested in the Rafale
These are the narratives and they endlessly funny. the French would rather tell you their marketing sucks than admit that they do not understand the market.
give the Americans credit with the JSF program. they did what France is trying to do retroactively. The US brought a bunch of European countries together and generally kept them all together and that is reaping rewards now. The US first got the diplomacy right, then it worked on the airplane. The French worked on the airplane and are still playing catch up with the diplomacy.
The US defense umbrella, by your own measure is more powerful. The US political pull in Europe is more powerful. The US is a global leader. France is not. many nations in Europe trust the US more in general and since they can do basic math, can see the comparative size difference between France and the US.
France is not the US. I'm sorry to have to tell you that, and it never will be. This is why you and your friends have to work so hard to convince everyone that the US is a disaster. a disaster that is so awful, its time to trust France more and throw in with France but its not happening of course because Europe knows that France can't offer what the US does, and this is not just F-35s but again the political leadership.
I know this seems like antithema to the French posters here but not everyone is in a huge hurry to "breakaway" from the USA, many people in Europe actually like and favor the US and enjoy having the US on their side, rather than sullying that for empty promises that France can't deliver on.
congrats on having those nukes, but it has not made you stronger. its just something you can point to in order to convince yourself you are not weak. its compensation. don't worry about all the problems mate, you still have your nukes. Meanwhile the US actually shares its nukes with its friends in Europe.
The Swiss evaluation (called Air2030) like many evaluations was a years long process. at the end of the process the F-35 according to the Swiss announcement showed the highest metrics and the lowest cost as outlined here:
It's Official Now: Switzerland Has Chosen The F-35 As The Next Swiss Air Force Fighter
The Swiss Federal Council announced Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightning II is the aircraft selected from its New Fighter Aircraft competition. It won against
theaviationist.com
the notion of Biden showing up and the years long Swiss evaluation changing suddenly overnight is a French construct along with the same "leaks" that claimed the Rafale had won the evaluation and Rafale was going to be selected. the F-35 also had similiar leaks but these leaks were shown to be true obviously.
this is the best thing about the Rafale Fanboy club. They can take a look at all the data and advocate for change and improvement in the Rafale, or they can pull an act of randomness out of their rear-ends and blame it on the last second act of the US showing up and waving a magic wand that suddenly made the Rafale more expensive and less capable.
I am fine with whatever you decide to blame. this is the standard "pick your poison"
The US cheats to win because its a Super Power and they have that ability...
or the French are equally powerful to the United States and just plain lost because the Rafale is secondary to the F-35.
its a very convenient alibi to say that the US broke the Swiss game rather than admit that the Rafale was less capable and more costly than the F-35 and I will leave it up to you which of those realizations is more painful.
This was all a very jarring moment for France and was the realization that they were not exactly where they believed themselves to be in terms of the tactical aircraft market.
Comment l’Armée de l’air va travailler sa « capacité de projection de puissance vite et loin » cet été
How the French Air Force will be working on its "fast and far power projection capability" this summer
DEFENCE-This summer, the French Air Force is deploying around twenty aircraft from Alaska to Australia as part of the Pegasus 24 mission.
Around the world for some twenty French military aircraft. From 27 June to 15 August, the French Air and Space Force is taking part in the Pegasus mission, which will see it visit some thirteen countries. This "shows that we have changed dimension in terms of our ability to project air power fast and far", insists General Guillaume Thomas, commander of the air operations brigade and head of the Pegasus 24 mission, which starts this Thursday.
From France, the French Air Force will deploy seven Rafales, five A330 MRTT (Multi Role Tanker Transport) refuelling aircraft and four A400M (transport of equipment and troops), which will take two air routes, one to the west and the other to the east, to meet up in Australia before returning to France. Several stopovers are planned on each of these routes, notably to take part in high-intensity air exercises, such as Arctic Defender in Alaska from 6 to 17 July, and Tarang Shakti in India from 6 to 13 August. French crews will also be taking part in the mega-exercise Pitch Black in Australia, from 12 July to 3 August.
Reducing response times for French forces
The MRTT, A400M and Rafale trio is changing the way we conduct air operations and shortening the time and distances involved," explains General Thomas. We can now project very quickly as far as the Pacific, with the aim of being as light as possible and minimising the logistical impact.
During Pegasus in 2021, the French Air Force sent three Rafales, two MRTTs and two A400Ms "in less than 40 hours to Polynesia". A record. "We also made a direct flight from France to Travis Airforce Base in California in twelve hours, with four refuellings in the air. In 2022, "we deployed a system to New Caledonia in less than 72 hours, with very short stopovers", adds General Thomas. It was a premonitory exercise, given that the French Air Force had to organise an airlift to New Caledonia a month ago, due to the violent clashes on the island, when the airports had to be closed.
Alaska, a "very realistic" training ground
This year, however, we will be less focused on speed," continues General Thomas. On the Pacific Skies loop [west], we'll be stopping in Alaska before heading to Australia. And on the Griffin Strike loop [east], which also reaches Australia, we'll be stopping in the United Arab Emirates and Singapore beforehand. We're focusing more on international cooperation and the duration of partnerships.
In particular, the French will be taking off on Thursday with crews from Germany and Spain, the three nations involved in the Scaf (Future Air Combat System) project. "It's a whole system, and this deployment will enable us to work on mission planning and cross-maintenance, since the three nations are using the A400M. This strengthens our ability to work together, and to better define this Scaf objective.
Once in Alaska, the European crews will take part in the Arctic Defender exercise, lasting three weeks, "where we will benefit from an airspace and a field of action that cannot be found in Europe, since the volume we will be allocated will be the equivalent of practically half of France, from the ground to virtually unlimited altitude. We will have very realistic training conditions, with opposition provided by US Air Force resources, in particular F18s, F35s and B52 bombers, and the use of very realistic ground-air systems, both real and simulated. This exercise will also enable us to test the latest version of the Rafale, the 4.1.
At the end of its stopover in Australia, this air component will return to mainland France via stopovers in Indonesia, the Philippines, Qatar and Egypt.
In Australia for a "very high-intensity exercise
The other loop, following the Griffin Strike route with a British crew, will leave France on 6 July and arrive in Australia on 10 July to take part in Pitch Black. This is a very high-intensity exercise organised every two years by Australia," explains General Thomas. Eighteen countries take part, including India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia and the United States, and it will bring together 2,500 airmen and a hundred or so aircraft from 10 July to 5 August.
On its return to France, this component will stop off in India for the Tarang Shakti exercise, then come to support "our overseas forces", with a stopover on Reunion Island and in New Caledonia "depending on current events". It is also an opportunity for France to demonstrate its presence in the Indo-Pacific, a vast area covering the Indian and Pacific Oceans, the scene of growing international tensions between Beijing and Washington.
The Rafales deployed by the French Air Force this summer will take off from the bases at Mont-de-Marsan (Landes) and Saint-Dizier (Haute-Marne), the A400Ms from Orléans (Loiret), and the MRTTs from Istres (Bouches-du-Rhône).
Luftwaffe soll Brimstone 3 für den Eurofighter erhalten
Nachdem die Bundeswehr bereits 2017 den Einstieg in die Nutzung der Luft-Boden-Rakete Brimstone 3 für den Anfang dieser Dekade angekündigt hatte, erfolgt jetzt die Umsetzung.
www.hartpunkt.de
We were out of NATO for years.
And not really fully in so far as our nuclear deterrence is not aligned with NATO (but with links so as to avoid 2 subs to hit during deterrence patrol)
Just an exemple : we were blocked for a SCALP cruise missile sell to Egypt because USA decided a special electronical component was not free for export.
We decided to produce it ourselves.
Now Egypt has its own SCALP.
Just a question of time and money.
the way of his American master....The Swiss evaluation (called Air2030) like many evaluations was a years long process. at the end of the process the F-35 according to the Swiss announcement showed the highest metrics and the lowest cost as outlined here:
It's Official Now: Switzerland Has Chosen The F-35 As The Next Swiss Air Force Fighter
The Swiss Federal Council announced Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightning II is the aircraft selected from its New Fighter Aircraft competition. It won against
the notion of Biden showing up and the years long Swiss evaluation changing suddenly overnight is a French construct along with the same "leaks" that claimed the Rafale had won the evaluation and Rafale was going to be selected. the F-35 also had similiar leaks but these leaks were shown to be true obviously.
this is the best thing about the Rafale Fanboy club. They can take a look at all the data and advocate for change and improvement in the Rafale, or they can pull an act of randomness out of their rear-ends and blame it on the last second act of the US showing up and waving a magic wand that suddenly made the Rafale more expensive and less capable.
I am fine with whatever you decide to blame. this is the standard "pick your poison"
The US cheats to win because its a Super Power and they have that ability...
or the French are equally powerful to the United States and just plain lost because the Rafale is secondary to the F-35.
its a very convenient alibi to say that the US broke the Swiss game rather than admit that the Rafale was less capable and more costly than the F-35 and I will leave it up to you which of those realizations is more painful.
This was all a very jarring moment for France and was the realization that they were not exactly where they believed themselves to be in terms of the tactical aircraft market.
Yes, the Swiss evaluation clearly proved that F-35 is technologically more advance than Rafale in terms of both low radar signature and SA.The Swiss evaluation (called Air2030) like many evaluations was a years long process. at the end of the process the F-35 according to the Swiss announcement showed the highest metrics and the lowest cost as outlined here:
It's Official Now: Switzerland Has Chosen The F-35 As The Next Swiss Air Force Fighter
The Swiss Federal Council announced Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightning II is the aircraft selected from its New Fighter Aircraft competition. It won against
the notion of Biden showing up and the years long Swiss evaluation changing suddenly overnight is a French construct along with the same "leaks" that claimed the Rafale had won the evaluation and Rafale was going to be selected. the F-35 also had similiar leaks but these leaks were shown to be true obviously.
this is the best thing about the Rafale Fanboy club. They can take a look at all the data and advocate for change and improvement in the Rafale, or they can pull an act of randomness out of their rear-ends and blame it on the last second act of the US showing up and waving a magic wand that suddenly made the Rafale more expensive and less capable.
I am fine with whatever you decide to blame. this is the standard "pick your poison"
The US cheats to win because its a Super Power and they have that ability...
or the French are equally powerful to the United States and just plain lost because the Rafale is secondary to the F-35.
its a very convenient alibi to say that the US broke the Swiss game rather than admit that the Rafale was less capable and more costly than the F-35 and I will leave it up to you which of those realizations is more painful.
This was all a very jarring moment for France and was the realization that they were not exactly where they believed themselves to be in terms of the tactical aircraft market.
However, this is just one side of the story. The way USAF is suffering with F-35s(Block-4), it's quite obvious that it ain't no wonder bird until those issues are completely sorted, IMO.
It could take a while. Because when one problem is finally solved, 3 others have appeared and it's been going on for 15 years!
so instead of just sending them to Egypt anyway you made a special version in order to comply with your "American master"? What a great demonstration of compliance with American demands. I guess France is as free as the US decides it is free.
lets talk about NATO now:
we are aware and Europe has not forgotten either.
is that your retort when we post factual evidence that the Rafale failed vs your made up story about daddy Biden coming in and waving a magic wand at the last minute that made the Rafale fall short despite years of evaluations? its never the Rafale's fault you see. its literal perfection.
The French quandary persists. is France an equal rival to the United States? is France a real country that can take the lead in Europe? or do they just make endless excuses for being powerless compared to the US? At one point you will have to make up your minds.
the Narrative shifted. Now France wants to be the leader of Europe. and you can't be the leader of Europe while saying the US runs the show behind the scenes.
Lets summarize the French problem further. If we are going to say that "defense umbrellas" and political power are a serious consideration in aircraft selection, then it is just 2 more categories that the French suffer in. French credibility to project defense power in a meaningful way to your clients is found to be wanting. politically France does not carry the same stick as the US. I will also mention the burned bridges like breaking away from NATO (thank you for mentioning that) and the Eurofighter program. One wonders how many of the nations France is trying to be friends with have memories of various times where France has decided to abandon them.
(of course we know the Truth of France "breaking away" from NATO and many French insist that such a thing never actually occured and France maintained strong ties in NATO, but I appreciate your attempt at subterfuge and false narrative anyway. its a very French thing to be symbolically free, but in reality still chained. )
its little wonder that so many in Europe would rather deal with F-35 headaches than French headaches.
We made a special version in order to comply with our diplomacy, and not the one of anyone else, including USA.