Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Innominate]

not FOC but a new engine already on the drawing board.... interesting.

In some people stupid naivete is considered cute and adorable unfortunately that doesn't apply to you. Shall we take a look at your little plane that first flew in 1986?

1. Qualification of the M88-2 engine ended in 1996 and the first production engine was delivered by the end of the year.
2. In May 2010, a Rafale flew for the first time with the M88-4E engine, an upgraded variant with greater thrust and lower maintenance requirements than the preceding M88-2.

And for a few years now Duh-ssault has been looking once again to get more power out of its underpowered engines.

Safran Plans Engine Upgrade For Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet​

2016.

-French company Safran, which manufactures the M88 engine of the Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft plans to increase its thrust from 7.5 tone to nine tons.

La Tribune newspaper said yesterday quoting CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin that, the engine upgrade in terms of thrust was necessary as the Rafale had grown heavier over the years due to addition of weapons and other systems.

He said that the original thrust of the Rafale engine was the same since the launch of the French fighter. The Rafale was designed over two decades ago.

However, the upgrade issue had not been discussed with Dassault Aviation, the Safran CEO added.

"It is time to ask the question whether it is appropriate to launch a study that would increase the engine thrust. Technically we can do. We are in discussion with the relevant authorities to see if possible. and if so, under what conditions and at what level of performance, it would be desirable to improve it, said Philippe Petitcolin (the quote has been translated from French).
Safran Plans Engine Upgrade For Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet (defenseworld.net)

How many engine upgrades does Rafail need?

What is the definition of FOC for Rafale? Rafale just recently got to F3 which is not as capable as F-35 3F. I can tell you right now Rafale F2 lacked a lot of capabilities so much so they didn't do SEAD missions in Libya. Growlers took out Libyan radars first couple nights.

 

[zinswinsin]

Guys common, USA would love to sell the F-35 to India lol.

 

[randomradio]

If F-35 fully fueled is "slightly underpowered" I wonder how underpowered this is like this.
View attachment 20575

Right now, with full fuel, the F-35's TWR is considerably below 1 whereas Rafale's is above 1. The F-35 can only match the Rafale while carrying 50-60% of its fuel load. With such a fuel load, it will only be competitive with a Mig-21. Plus the Rafale's airframe is much better optimised for flying since it's not compromised due to stealth and IWBs.

The increase in thrust will bring it to the Rafale's current level of TWR.

 

[randomradio]

Guys common, USA would love to sell the F-35 to India lol.

In fact the US is waiting for an opportunity. Anything to prevent Russia from gaining a Su-57 market in India.

But they are not open to ToT. Never mind the fact that ToT even for 4th gen jets is quite restrictive. So any numbers procured will be far too low, more like a specialist fleet, like our Mirages.

Now, if it's to be a silver bullet fleet, then the real question is if it's going to be competitive enough with the Su-57. Or if the US will have to offer the NGAD instead.

 

[BMD]

not FOC but a new engine already on the drawing board.... interesting.

Same with Dassault and the Rafale and even the Typhoon had a more powerful engine on the drawing board and nobody ever said that even needed more power.

Right now, with full fuel, the F-35's TWR is considerably below 1 whereas Rafale's is above 1. The F-35 can only match the Rafale while carrying 50-60% of its fuel load. With such a fuel load, it will only be competitive with a Mig-21. Plus the Rafale's airframe is much better optimised for flying since it's not compromised due to stealth and IWBs.

The increase in thrust will bring it to the Rafale's current level of TWR.

This has already been proven wrong wrt fuel fractions, let's not have to go over that again.

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

In fact our networking is currently much more modern than what the US uses. They need to upgrade. I highly highly doubt that. We are behind in networking compared to Nato. Unless we don't have BNET ready and deployed I don't think we will match them..

www.strategicfront.org

10,300 + (1250 x 1.76) = 12,500lb

12,500/[33,000 + (1.76 x 1250)] = .355 Rafale

18,250/47,250 = .386 F-35

When you start recycling arguments that you've already lost you know you're wrong and are just arguing for the sake of it, i.e. trolling.

 

[BMD]

So basically the Rafale needs at least two 1250L tanks to match the F-35's fuel fraction, only then it's massively dirty, especially with AAMs and still won't make the same range. The TWR will be the same at 0.91 but performance in terms of speed and manoeuvrability will be lower with two EFTs.

 

[BMD]

Guys common, USA would love to sell the F-35 to India lol.

Honestly I'm not sure it would, see how quickly Turkey got scratched even as a NATO member. India still has tons of Russian hardware, plus the S-400 that Turkey got scratched for and historically relations have been questionable. The US and India are moving closer but they're not their yet. The list is basically NATO, plus 5 eyes, a few Western European EU states (Finland, Swiss neutrals), America's grandchild (Israel) and Pacific allies who been allies since WW2. It's pretty exclusive.

If F-35 fully fueled is "slightly underpowered" I wonder how underpowered this is like this.
View attachment 20575

That's basically it, that's how much fuel a Rafale likely needs to match the F-35 once EFT and stores drag are factored in.

 

[randomradio]

Same with Dassault and the Rafale and even the Typhoon had a more powerful engine on the drawing board and nobody ever said that even needed more power.

This has already been proven wrong wrt fuel fractions, let's not have to go over that again.

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

In fact our networking is currently much more modern than what the US uses. They need to upgrade. I highly highly doubt that. We are behind in networking compared to Nato. Unless we don't have BNET ready and deployed I don't think we will match them..

www.strategicfront.org

10,300 + (1250 x 1.76) = 12,500lb

12,500/[33,000 + (1.76 x 1250)] = .355 Rafale

18,250/47,250 = .386 F-35

When you start recycling arguments that you've already lost you know you're wrong and are just arguing for the sake of it, i.e. trolling.

*yawn*

Even with a higher fuel fraction, it only gets a few hundred Kms more in terms of range.

Add a fuel tank, the Rafale will still have full fuel at 40k feet and still with a greater TWR than an F-35 with lower fuel. This is getting old, but the real world is different from your paper world once the jets begin flying.

 

[zinswinsin]

Honestly I'm not sure it would, see how quickly Turkey got scratched even as a NATO member. India still has tons of Russian hardware, plus the S-400 that Turkey got scratched for and historically relations have been questionable. The US and India are moving closer but they're not their yet. The list is basically NATO, plus 5 eyes, a few Western European EU states (Finland, Swiss neutrals), America's grandchild (Israel) and Pacific allies who been allies since WW2. It's pretty exclusive.

That's basically it, that's how much fuel a Rafale likely needs to match the F-35 once EFT and stores drag are factored in.

India is more important to USA than NATO at this point. Japan is the top bro. Although Turkey is a special case in NATO anyways. The only non European ethnicity country.

It's not a matter of how strong Europe is, it's a matter of geography.

The main enemy this time is in the Pacific not in Europe.

 

[Innominate]

Japan to budget $912 million to buy 10 F-35s next year​

In its budget proposal for 2022, the Japan’s Ministry of Defense will budget $912 million to acquire 10 F-35 fighters from the U.S.

This is nearly double of what the ministry had budget in 2021 for six aircraft. Japan’s mid-term defense plan is to acquire 27 F-35As and 18 F-35Bs.
Japan to budget $912 million to buy 10 F-35s next year – Alert 5

 

[_Anonymous_]

Japan to budget $912 million to buy 10 F-35s next year​

In its budget proposal for 2022, the Japan’s Ministry of Defense will budget $912 million to acquire 10 F-35 fighters from the U.S.

This is nearly double of what the ministry had budget in 2021 for six aircraft. Japan’s mid-term defense plan is to acquire 27 F-35As and 18 F-35Bs.
Japan to budget $912 million to buy 10 F-35s next year – Alert 5

Well , let's face it . If the JSF comes a cropper against the J-20's the Japanese can always launch a Kamikaze attack against them . I suppose that's why the Japanese aren't too bothered about the performance parameters of the JSF . As far as the US goes they can always scoot like they did from Afghanistan with their tail in between their legs begging for safe passage from the Taliban & so many other places too innumerable to list here .

 

[lcafanboy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1426360655662125056

F-16s having s*x in the Air. So this is how Lockheed Martin produces F-16s

 

[BMD]

India is more important to USA than NATO at this point. Japan is the top bro. Although Turkey is a special case in NATO anyways. The only non European ethnicity country.

It's not a matter of how strong Europe is, it's a matter of geography.

The main enemy this time is in the Pacific not in Europe.

India is important but their alignment isn't completely clear. That could change but it'll likely take 20 years. The prevalence of Russian hardware in their military is a big problem and in a situation with Russia, where would they stand? Russia and China aren't necessarily separate threats.

 

[BMD]

*yawn*

Even with a higher fuel fraction, it only gets a few hundred Kms more in terms of range.

Add a fuel tank, the Rafale will still have full fuel at 40k feet and still with a greater TWR than an F-35 with lower fuel. This is getting old, but the real world is different from your paper world once the jets begin flying.

If you think a dirty Rafale pulling an EFT and external stores will have more range than a clean F-35 with a higher fuel fraction you're massively deluded. Not to mention the significantly higher BPR of the F135 engine. We're both talking paper worlds only mine is maths and yours is Rafale propaganda.

 

[_Anonymous_]

India is important but their alignment isn't completely clear. That could change but it'll likely take 20 years. The prevalence of Russian hardware in their military is a big problem and in a situation with Russia, where would they stand? Russia and China aren't necessarily separate threats.

In a situation with Russia where would they stand asks Paddy. Well, where were UK & US during our standoff with China last year. The US took a full 3 months after the infiltration by the PLA was made public before coming out with a weasel statement asking both sides to talk it out. The UK didn't even do that. What do you take us for Paddy? Your lot , who can & will be suckered ? That too easily & on the cheap?

 

[randomradio]

If you think a dirty Rafale pulling an EFT and external stores will have more range than a clean F-35 with a higher fuel fraction you're massively deluded. Not to mention the significantly higher BPR of the F135 engine. We're both talking paper worlds only mine is maths and yours is Rafale propaganda.

First off, we know for a fact that the F-35's range isn't a lot higher than the Rafale's, so the advantage with the engine doesn't pan out in terms of range.

Secondly, that wasn't the point I was making. In an actual real world operation, when the jets are supposed to ingress into enemy territory or meet the enemy, both jets will drop their fuel tanks and move in with full internal fuel. And when you are in enemy territory, the Rafale will have TWR greater than 1 whereas the F-35 won't. This is quite elementary. Nothing else to is.

If we assume both the J-20 and Su-57 have an empty weight of 18T and carry 12T of fuel with 18T engines, both jets will have a TWR of 1.2 with full fuel. The Rafale will have 1.03. The F-35 will have 0.88. With the upgraded engines, it's going to be 1.05, hence competitive with the Rafale.

The enemy won't give a flying f*ck what your fuel fraction is when it's making a kill. If you do not have enough TWR to deal with it, you are dead. This is how the real world works. So, if the F-35 needs to have a TWR above 1 with current engines, it will have to forgo 40% of its fuel, and become range competitive with the Mig-21 instead.

 

[Hydra]

First off, we know for a fact that the F-35's range isn't a lot higher than the Rafale's, so the advantage with the engine doesn't pan out in terms of range.

Secondly, that wasn't the point I was making. In an actual real world operation, when the jets are supposed to ingress into enemy territory or meet the enemy, both jets will drop their fuel tanks and move in with full internal fuel. And when you are in enemy territory, the Rafale will have TWR greater than 1 whereas the F-35 won't. This is quite elementary. Nothing else to is.

If we assume both the J-20 and Su-57 have an empty weight of 18T and carry 12T of fuel with 18T engines, both jets will have a TWR of 1.2 with full fuel. The Rafale will have 1.03. The F-35 will have 0.88. With the upgraded engines, it's going to be 1.05, hence competitive with the Rafale.

The enemy won't give a flying f*ck what your fuel fraction is when it's making a kill. If you do not have enough TWR to deal with it, you are dead. This is how the real world works. So, if the F-35 needs to have a TWR above 1 with current engines, it will have to forgo 40% of its fuel, and become range competitive with the Mig-21 instead.

What you said twr is come in to play significant role when they were engaging dogfight or when both sees each other almost at same time, F35 is not designed to do that i guess.

 

[randomradio]

What you said twr is come in to play significant role when they were engaging dogfight or when both sees each other almost at same time, F35 is not designed to do that i guess.

The F-35 is designed to do dog fights, but it may not be competitive enough with more advanced jets coming in. But it's not just dog fights, you need performance in order to dodge missiles or change altitude or accelerate.

If current levels of thrust was enough, then the F-35 wouldn't need a thrust upgrade. They would have chosen to maintain thrust levels and improve SFC or service life instead. But the thrust upgrade implicitly proves that the F-35 is currently underpowered.

In our operational environment as well, where the enemy is less than 250Km away, our MKIs fly with 50-75% fuel in order to maintain TWR above 1. So, at 50% fuel, it has a TWR of 1.08.

 

[Innominate]

Well , let's face it . If the JSF comes a cropper against the J-20's the Japanese can always launch a Kamikaze attack against them . I suppose that's why the Japanese aren't too bothered about the performance parameters of the JSF . As far as the US goes they can always scoot like they did from Afghanistan with their tail in between their legs begging for safe passage from the Taliban & so many other places too innumerable to list here .

Lol. Can't stay focus huh boy? Look at you again going off topic in a rage all because I got under your Indian skin. Try to stay on topic Habib and don't let folks like me with facts get under your skin. Maybe if you stop BS-ing all the time you wouldn't need to be corrected therefor you'd stop being angry every time folks call out your bs. Think about that.

Japanese, Swiss, UK, South Korea, Italy, Greece, Belgium, ect ect ect... all these nations aren't too bothered with the F-35s performance because they are not tards like you and actually know the true performance of the F-35. Maybe if you'd stop ragging and actually did some research once in a while you'd find what F-35 pilots have to say about the performance of the F-35 who many have flown 4th gen fighters but you won't because you rather live with your head up your a s s and believe the lie that has been ejaculated down your throat.

 

[Innominate]

If you think a dirty Rafale pulling an EFT and external stores will have more range than a clean F-35 with a higher fuel fraction you're massively deluded. Not to mention the significantly higher BPR of the F135 engine. We're both talking paper worlds only mine is maths and yours is Rafale propaganda.

He should listen to the pilots.

@3:10 talks about its performance