Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Innominate]

The F-35 is designed to do dog fights, but it may not be competitive enough with more advanced jets coming in. But it's not just dog fights, you need performance in order to dodge missiles or change altitude or accelerate.

If current levels of thrust was enough, then the F-35 wouldn't need a thrust upgrade. They would have chosen to maintain thrust levels and improve SFC or service life instead. But the thrust upgrade implicitly proves that the F-35 is currently underpowered.

In our operational environment as well, where the enemy is less than 250Km away, our MKIs fly with 50-75% fuel in order to maintain TWR above 1. So, at 50% fuel, it has a TWR of 1.08.

You like saying a lot of dumb things but this is really as dumb as you can get. Maybe you missed it but I posted the Rafails couple of engine upgrades its gone through and the engine upgrade it wants to do again but can't afford right now so I guess by your tard logic if Rafails thrust levels was enough it wouldn't need a thrust upgrade too, eh?

1. Qualification of the M88-2 engine ended in 1996 and the first production engine was delivered by the end of the year.
2. In May 2010, a Rafale flew for the first time with the M88-4E engine, an upgraded variant with greater thrust and lower maintenance requirements than the preceding M88-2.

And for a few years now Duh-ssault has been looking once again to get more power out of its underpowered engines.

Safran Plans Engine Upgrade For Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet​

2016.

-French company Safran, which manufactures the M88 engine of the Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft plans to increase its thrust from 7.5 tone to nine tons.

La Tribune newspaper said yesterday quoting CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin that, the engine upgrade in terms of thrust was necessary as the Rafale had grown heavier over the years due to addition of weapons and other systems.

He said that the original thrust of the Rafale engine was the same since the launch of the French fighter. The Rafale was designed over two decades ago.

However, the upgrade issue had not been discussed with Dassault Aviation, the Safran CEO added.

"It is time to ask the question whether it is appropriate to launch a study that would increase the engine thrust. Technically we can do. We are in discussion with the relevant authorities to see if possible. and if so, under what conditions and at what level of performance, it would be desirable to improve it, said Philippe Petitcolin (the quote has been translated from French).
Safran Plans Engine Upgrade For Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet (defenseworld.net)

How many engine upgrades does Rafail need?

 

[_Anonymous_]

Lol. Can't stay focus huh boy? Look at you again going off topic in a rage all because I got under your Indian skin. Try to stay on topic Habib and don't let folks like me with facts get under your skin. Maybe if you stop BS-ing all the time you wouldn't need to be corrected therefor you'd stop being angry every time folks call out your bs. Think about that.

Japanese, Swiss, UK, South Korea, Italy, Greece, Belgium, ect ect ect... all these nations aren't too bothered with the F-35s performance because they are not tards like you and actually know the true performance of the F-35. Maybe if you'd stop ragging and actually did some research once in a while you'd find what F-35 pilots have to say about the performance of the F-35 who many have flown 4th gen fighters but you won't because you rather live with your head up your a s s and believe the lie that has been ejaculated down your throat.

You seem riled Puto. If you paid careful attention , you'd notice I never cast aspersions on your winged Pegasus merely qualified my statement with the preposition - ''if "

I'm also sure if the Taliban had an air force worth the name you'd have blown them away like in a turkey shoot courtesy your wonder weapon. Alas ! They didn't play by your rules & you had to scram.

Btw - I once again take the opportunity to solemnly affirm my beliefs in the Almighty powers of the F-35 except when it's faced by actors out of the syllabus like them Taliban. Then , you drop everything & run as if your life depended on it . Trust that clarification should assuage your tender feelings , TEEHEE.

 

[_Anonymous_]

He should listen to the pilots.

@3:10 talks about its performance

Propoganda pieces. One would almost believe them if one were ignorant of your track record.

Btw - Nobody does it better than the Americans. Like when they had to scram from Saigon in 1975 . On the one hand the world viewed US TV networks broadcasting choppers being dumped from aircraft carriers to make way for US servicemen & their dependants to flee & OTOH the news anchors & US generals were constantly bombarding the airwaves with their views on what a glorious fight the US was still putting up out there in 'Nam.

 

[zinswinsin]

yeah man turns out fighting insurgencies is hard regardless of how nice you can blow stuff up.

Lesson not learnt.

 

[AbRaj]

yeah man turns out fighting insurgencies is hard regardless of how nice you can blow stuff up.

Lesson not learnt.

problem is USA likes to have poodles/puppets. They don’t want to give too much autonomy to states they invade.
This promotes corruption and inefficiency. So the installed regimes survive as long as funding is maintained and as soon as the umbilical cord is cut, everything disintegrates like vapourware.

plus you have allies like Turkey, Pakistan etc which know your weaknesses and trying everything to milk/blackmail you.
they are addicted to the US Taxpayers money so much so that it’s impossible for them to survive without it. So they grow snakes to threaten the Americans.

 

[_Anonymous_]

They were fighting the wrong enemy as plenty of commentators from the strategic studies community , the intelligence community & their serving & retired senior generals have repeatedly pointed out . With the result that the PA will derive all thr wrong lessons & try to punch above it's weight in the region & India.

I wonder what does it say about the US though. Nearly 3000 US soldiers killed - all of them due to the Taliban hosted armed & financed by Pakistan who're now boasting they've humbled 2 super powers. Pakistan is as much complicit in those killings as the Taliban & the US administration shamelessly looks the other way begging the Pakistanis to persuade the Taliban to allow it safe passage to evacuate & a policy of not engaging US personnel & citizens in Afghanistan . Utterly Disgraceful !!

 

[Innominate]

Propoganda pieces. One would almost believe them if one were ignorant of your track record.

Btw - Nobody does it better than the Americans. Like when they had to scram from Saigon in 1975 . On the one hand the world viewed US TV networks broadcasting choppers being dumped from aircraft carriers to make way for US servicemen & their dependants to flee & OTOH the news anchors & US generals were constantly bombarding the airwaves with their views on what a glorious fight the US was still putting up out there in 'Nam.

Propaganda? Lulz. Poor boy you are very high strung right now. I guess everything that comes out of Duhssault is propaganda too? And again changing the topic because you can't debate the topic with facts says a lot about how thin skinned you are. You're the only one that does it!

When F-35 contras make BS claims do you see me or any in here that is considered pro F-35 deflect by talking about wars? Of course not because we know how to debunk their claims by using facts backed up by sources of people that are in the know or are part of the F-35 program. We don't need to deflect because facts back up our claims unlike a titty baby like you who goes off topic when you don't have the facts.

Next time you rage listen to some relaxing Indian music. I got a couple of Indian music I like to listen to when work gets me stressed like this one.

Tell me this doesn't relax you and bring a smile to your face.

 

[Innominate]

yeah man turns out fighting insurgencies is hard regardless of how nice you can blow stuff up.

Lesson not learnt.

The problem with US elites/neocons/neoliberals/swamp is they think they can bring democracy to third world islamic nations. They stay and become a police force which is stupid. Over 3000 died in the 20 years being there as a police force. US is good at offensive wars where they kill and topple what needs to be killed and topple the problem comes when we stay because we "care" and want to westernized these people.

The moment the US toppled the Taliban and killed many Alqaeda they should have left and only come back to bomb if Taliban and Alqaeda start trouble again. In Iraq in Desert Storm look how easily it was for the US to travel half way around the world and defeat the 4th largest battle hardened Army and penetrate and take down the worlds second dense IADS in Baghdad. Iraq war 2 the US easily made to Baghdad and toppled Saddam but the problem came when they stayed to westernized Iraq. When Saddam was toppled the US should have put their puppet government and left and let them fight it out or just leave Iraq to their own devices.

US and its military are sick and tired of these kind of wars where they stay to police the nation. DOD's dream war is a war against another nations military where the objective is to destroy a nations fighting capability not to babysit it. A conflict with China will only be a naval air conflict in which the US will totally own these are the wars US Generals and Admirals want to fight and dream of.

 

[BMD]

 

[BMD]

First off, we know for a fact that the F-35's range isn't a lot higher than the Rafale's, so the advantage with the engine doesn't pan out in terms of range.

Secondly, that wasn't the point I was making. In an actual real world operation, when the jets are supposed to ingress into enemy territory or meet the enemy, both jets will drop their fuel tanks and move in with full internal fuel. And when you are in enemy territory, the Rafale will have TWR greater than 1 whereas the F-35 won't. This is quite elementary. Nothing else to is.

If we assume both the J-20 and Su-57 have an empty weight of 18T and carry 12T of fuel with 18T engines, both jets will have a TWR of 1.2 with full fuel. The Rafale will have 1.03. The F-35 will have 0.88. With the upgraded engines, it's going to be 1.05, hence competitive with the Rafale.

The enemy won't give a flying f*ck what your fuel fraction is when it's making a kill. If you do not have enough TWR to deal with it, you are dead. This is how the real world works. So, if the F-35 needs to have a TWR above 1 with current engines, it will have to forgo 40% of its fuel, and become range competitive with the Mig-21 instead.

Uhurr, a fact from a Rafale brochure.

An F-35's TWR will exceed 1 when it gets down to the same fuel fraction as a clean Rafale, and it won't have to drop expensive tanks to get there.

None of this matters since all those jets will be picked off at range.

yeah man turns out fighting insurgencies is hard regardless of how nice you can blow stuff up.

Lesson not learnt.

What they should have done in Afghanistan if anything was give civilians 3 months to enter government-controlled regions unarmed and then killed absolutely everyone in the remainder of the country with air power, no discerning between insurgents, civilians or goats, if they're not in the government-controlled regions they're dead. Some collateral might have occurred but all the alternatives are worse.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Propaganda? Lulz. Poor boy you are very high strung right now. I guess everything that comes out of Duhssault is propaganda too? And again changing the topic because you can't debate the topic with facts says a lot about how thin skinned you are. You're the only one that does it! When F-35 contras make BS claims do you see me or any in here that is considered pro F-35 deflect by talking about wars ?

It's an LM video , Puto . You don't exactly expect them to be critical of their product anymore than those promos on TV of presidential candidates blowing their own trumpet during campaigning, do you ? Or are you a special kind of retard who needs this to be explained to you .

I thought a war - any war which sees use of such arms armaments & platforms is why these weapons were ordered designed & manufactured in the first place or is it your contention they were procured to be housed in bases such as Miramar to put on shows for amateur enthusiasts & conspiracy theorists such as yourself who'd then speculate endlessly about some 3rd rate footage arguing if it was a UFO or some top secret SkunkWorks work in progress project you've stumbled upon.

Trust this answers why wars like the ones you waged in Afghanistan I raq , Syria Libya & Vietnam earlier among countless wars you've waged was mentioned. Something which you with your extremely limited intellect consider deflection.

Of course not because we know how to debunk their claims by using facts backed up by sources of people that are in the know or are part of the F-35 program. We don't need to deflect because facts back up our claims unlike a titty baby like you who goes off topic when you don't have the facts.

You mean videos from LM or some loony bloggers blog quoting General Hostage ( I swear I read that thrice the first time I came across it , to comprehend it wondering if dumb Americans had started grading hostages into different classifications now - general , common special & on & on ) on JSF uploading Stuxnet like E virus onto fighters or other systems of the enemy just like that .

The more we read you the more we are convinced why Trump won & still stands a good chance in the 2024 presidential elections.

Next time you rage listen to some relaxing Indian music. I got a couple of Indian music I like to listen to when work gets me stressed like this one.

Tell me this doesn't relax you and bring a smile to your face.

Sounds like the kind of piped music played in elevators or rest rooms of malls theatres star hotels etc. It's no wonder these kinds of songs get produced & shoot up to the top of the Billboard charts

I can't tell what's more pathetic . Your constipated reasoning , your toilet sense of humour or your abysmal choice in music . Guess whoever made the comment that Americans went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between certainly did so after having made a profound study of the American people like you. You're in luck though. You've come to the right place . Paddy here has equally pathetic tastes. You'd make him a good bumchum . Besides like you , he's Irish too . Pls do take note Paddy .

@BMD

I could go on .Trust you get the drift.

 

[Innominate]

I can't tell what's more pathetic . Your constipated reasoning , your toilet sense of humour or your abysmal choice in music . Guess whoever made the comment that Americans went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between certainly did so after having made a profound study of the American people like you. You're in luck though. You've come to the right place . Paddy here has equally pathetic tastes. You'd make him a good bumchum . Besides like you , he's Irish too . Pls do take note Paddy .

@BMD

I could go on .Trust you get the drift.

You keep knocking us Murrcans and our ways but it's your people that keeps coming here to live. You don't see Murrrcans giving up their way of life to go live in India... at least not by choice I mean nobody choses to live in a literal caca hole.

And how dare you critique my choice in Indian music. This is another of mein favorites.

You say anything negative about this music video I'll make you hurt a cow!

 

[_Anonymous_]

You keep knocking us Murrcans and our ways but it's your people that keeps coming here to live. You don't see Murrrcans giving up their way of life to go live in India... at least not by choice I mean nobody choses to live in a literal caca hole.

Don't take them in. As simple as that . We're losing some of our brightest minds whom the ordinary taxpayer such as myself are helping by subsidizing their education.

And how dare you critique my choice in Indian music. This is another of mein favorites.

You say anything negative about this music video I'll make you hurt a cow!

Why would I hurt your mom ?

 

[_Anonymous_]

And how dare you critique my choice in Indian music. This is another of mein favorites.

Just happened to see that video. The subtitles were a hoot . Just to enhance your knowledge. That's a music video in the Telugu language - a regional tongue spoken in the state of Andhra Pradesh on the south eastern coast of India & Telengana which lies to it's west . Do you want to know what inspired it ?

So you see Puto , bad taste has universal appeal. That may or may not explain why the F-35 found so many takers.

 

[randomradio]

You like saying a lot of dumb things but this is really as dumb as you can get. Maybe you missed it but I posted the Rafails couple of engine upgrades its gone through and the engine upgrade it wants to do again but can't afford right now so I guess by your tard logic if Rafails thrust levels was enough it wouldn't need a thrust upgrade too, eh?

1. Qualification of the M88-2 engine ended in 1996 and the first production engine was delivered by the end of the year.
2. In May 2010, a Rafale flew for the first time with the M88-4E engine, an upgraded variant with greater thrust and lower maintenance requirements than the preceding M88-2.

And for a few years now Duh-ssault has been looking once again to get more power out of its underpowered engines.

Safran Plans Engine Upgrade For Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet​

2016.

-French company Safran, which manufactures the M88 engine of the Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft plans to increase its thrust from 7.5 tone to nine tons.

La Tribune newspaper said yesterday quoting CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin that, the engine upgrade in terms of thrust was necessary as the Rafale had grown heavier over the years due to addition of weapons and other systems.

He said that the original thrust of the Rafale engine was the same since the launch of the French fighter. The Rafale was designed over two decades ago.

However, the upgrade issue had not been discussed with Dassault Aviation, the Safran CEO added.

"It is time to ask the question whether it is appropriate to launch a study that would increase the engine thrust. Technically we can do. We are in discussion with the relevant authorities to see if possible. and if so, under what conditions and at what level of performance, it would be desirable to improve it, said Philippe Petitcolin (the quote has been translated from French).
Safran Plans Engine Upgrade For Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet (defenseworld.net)

How many engine upgrades does Rafail need?

Engine upgrade and thrust upgrade aren't the same things. When you upgrade thrust, it's an admission that your jet is underpowered.

 

[Innominate]

Don't take them in. As simple as that . We're losing some of our brightest minds whom the ordinary taxpayer such as myself are helping by subsidizing their education.


Why would I hurt your mom ?

You pay taxes? Those scam call centers you work for pay you that much or is it commission?

 

[_Anonymous_]

You pay taxes? Those scam call centers you work for pay you that much or is it commission?

A regular salary plus commission & a bonus if we exceed our targets for every dumb American we manage to con over & above our targets.

Strike rate of the most dumb call centre agent out here handling American customers on an average is 125 /100 ( extra 25 means over & above our targets ) . Americans are real suckers. Very easy to gyp.

Israelis have been doing it forever. Pakistanis have been doing it for a long time too . The Chinese too have plenty of experience & have made quite a fortune off the Americans. The Afghans are the latest to join the gravy train. Why should Indians be left behind ?

 

[Innominate]

Engine upgrade and thrust upgrade aren't the same things. When you upgrade thrust, it's an admission that your jet is underpowered.

Lol. Huh?

Ok I will post again what Safran said...

French company Safran, which manufactures the M88 engine of the Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft plans to increase its thrust from 7.5 tone to nine tons.

La Tribune newspaper said yesterday quoting CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin that, the engine upgrade in terms of thrust was necessary as the Rafale had grown heavier over the years due to addition of weapons and other systems.

He said that the original thrust of the Rafale engine was the same since the launch of the French fighter. The Rafale was designed over two decades ago.

Sweetie whether you like it or not Rafale is looking for a thrust upgrade which means it needs a new engine.

 

[randomradio]

yeah man turns out fighting insurgencies is hard regardless of how nice you can blow stuff up.

Lesson not learnt.

Kashmir was way worse and had the potential to become even worse. We killed more terrorists ever since the insurgency began than there are Taliban in total. But we showed intent to win, and won. And without having to bring in the air force. So insurgencies can be won.

The insurgencies in Af and Iraq could have been won too, the US simply wasn't interested in doing so.

 

[zinswinsin]

Kashmir was way worse and had the potential to become even worse. We killed more terrorists ever since the insurgency began than there are Taliban in total. But we showed intent to win, and won. And without having to bring in the air force. So insurgencies can be won.

The insurgencies in Af and Iraq could have been won too, the US simply wasn't interested in doing so.

Sure, insurgencies are a matter of politics and political will.

The number one step is to isolate, and that was never possible with Pakistan. Same reason America lost in Vietnam.

I think it's fair to say Iraq is different than AF.