Mid Air Refueling Tanker : Updates & Discussions

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IAF staring at midair refuelling crisis, says CAG report
A decade ago, the IAF identified 10 airfields for mid-air refuelling where infrastructure was to be created, including extended runways, to fully exploit the platform
INDIA Updated: Aug 20, 2017 00:06 IST
Rahul Singh
Hindustan Times, New Delhi

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An Indian Air Force aircraft demonstrates mid-air refueling capability. The CAG found that there aren’t enough hangars for the refuellers, tanking them up on the ground is a problem and dedicated refuelling corridors are missing.(PTI)

The Indian Air Force appears to be facing a mid-air refuelling crisis and its plans to induct modern tankers to expand the strategic reach of its fighters haven’t yet taken off.

The IAF’s runways are too short for its Ilyushin-78 tanker fleet, their refuelling pods are dogged by failures and the airworthiness is questionable, a comprehensive audit of the Russian-origin fleet has revealed.

In a scathing report, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) also found that there aren’t enough hangars for the refuellers, tanking them up on the ground is a problem and dedicated refuelling corridors are missing. The IAF operates six IL-78 planes bought in 2003-04 at Rs 132 crore a piece. The IAF is yet to float a new tender for six mid-air refuellers costing upwards of $2 billion.

An IL-78 requires a runway length of 11,480 feet to 15,022 feet to carry full fuel loads. A decade ago, the IAF identified 10 airfields for mid-air refuelling where infrastructure was to be created, including extended runways, to fully exploit the platform.

“The runway length at these 10 airfields was below 10,000 feet. It was observed that only runway…was extended partially up to 10,500 feet,” said the report tabled in Parliament in July-end.

The defence ministry responded saying the aircraft would go into overhaul in 2018-19, with upgraded engines allowing them to take off from shorter runways. The report said the serviceability of aerial refuelling pods – hoses used to transfer fuel – was poor due to frequent failures, inadequate repair facilities and poor maintenance support from the manufacturer, adversely impacting operations.

The desired serviceability of the IL-78 fleet should be 70% by IAF’s own standards. But it stood at 49% during 2010-16. Simply put, barely half of the planes were available for missions at any given time.

The IAF has constructed only one hangar for the six refuellers. “Due to non-availability of hangars, the costly air assets remained in the open which adversely affected their life.” The IAF’s IL-76 heavy-lift planes are also plagued by hangar woes, poor serviceability and delayed repairs and servicing.

The IAF doesn’t have enough hydrant refueling systems to tank up the refuellers swiftly and efficiently on the ground. The HRS facility or underground tanks was available only in two out of the 10 airbases identified for IL-78 operations in 2007, the report found. It added the IAF has not obtained approval for creating 12 dedicated corridors for midair refuelling so that commercial traffic is not disrupted.

The IAF needs more tankers to stay prepared to counter China in the eastern sector. The government is expected to float a new tender which will be the third one in the last 10 years, with the previous two failing to end up as contracts due to price complications.

IAF staring at midair refuelling crisis, says CAG report

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IAF to float tender for midair refuellers again after two failed attempts
The Indian Air Force will soon float a tender for at least six midair refuellers that could cost upwards of $2 billion, an air marshal familiar with the development said.
INDIA Updated: Feb 25, 2017 16:12 IST
Rahul Singh
Hindustan Times, New Delhi

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An Indian Air Force Ilyushin Il-78 refuelling a mid-air flight.(File Photo)

India is set to launch a fresh hunt for midair refuellers to expand strategic reach of its air force after two failed attempts to induct new tankers.

The Indian Air Force will soon float a tender for at least six midair refuellers that could cost upwards of $2 billion, an air marshal familiar with the development said.

HIGHLIGHTS
  • IAF needs to acquire midair refuellers for induction of new tankers into the force.
  • The tender for at least six new midair refuellers could cost around $2 billion.
  • This will be the third tender for tankers in the last 10 years, the previous attempts failed due to price complications.
  • American, Russian, European and Israeli military contractors are eyeing to bid for the lucrative deal.
The IAF’s Russian-origin Ilyushin-78 tanker fleet is plagued by maintenance problems and more refuellers are required to stay prepared to counter China in the eastern sector, the three-star officer said.

This will be the third tender for tankers in the last 10 years, with the previous two failing to end up as contracts due to price complications. Ilyushin’s Il-78 and Airbus A330 multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) offered by European aerospace corporation EADS competed for the previous tenders. The scope of the competition will be bigger this time.

A four-cornered contest is in the offing with American, Russian, European and Israeli military contractors eyeing the lucrative deal.

“We look forward to taking part in the competition with our KC-46A multi-role tanker and have had various levels of discussions with the IAF. We are following it closely,” said Robert D Schoeffling, senior manager (global sales and marketing), Boeing Military Aircraft.

The US Air Force awarded Boeing a $2.1-billion order for 15 KC-46A tanker aircraft, spare engines and wing air refueling pod kits in January, following a previous order for 19 planes last August. The KC-46A is a Boeing 767-based refueling aircraft. Boeing will build 179 KC-46 tankers for the USAF by 2027.

Israel will also be a new entrant to the competition. Israel Aerospace Industries' Bedek Aviation Group has firmed up plans to take part in the contest with its Boeing 767-200 multi-mission tanker transport (MMTT).

Bedek’s marketing and business development manager Sharon Katzir said the Israeli firm was in talks with the IAF and would compete for the order.
 
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The Indian Air Force’s mid-air refuelling capabilities will take a hit next year when its Russia-procured Ilyushin-78 tankers go for an overhaul, leaving the air force with little option as two attempts to buy new tankers have failed.

THE EXISTING FLEET
The IAF operates a modest fleet of six IL-78 aircraft bought from Russia in 2003-04 at a cost of Rs 132 crore each to expand the strategic reach of its fighter jets. Riddled with problems, only two or three planes from the tanker squadron are available for missions at any given time.

TANKERS ON AN OVERHAUL
Used for refuelling jets mid-air to keep them airborne longer, the IL-78 tankers’ overhaul — in phases — will involve upgrading the engines of the aircraft to allow them to take off from shorter runways.

FUTURE
India is expected to float a new global tender for six or more tankers next year to stay prepared to counter China in the eastern sector, the sources said. The purchase could be worth as much as Rs 13,000 crore.
 
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No Need to Panic.

Buddy Refuelling is done by M29 to Su30.

In event of a calamity Russkis will lend us tankers of our count as collateral for managing any eventuality.
 
The idea to have an AWAC as a refueller is a brilliant idea. That will make an AWAC a real force multiplier.
Looks like you had insider information or someone was reading you. :LOL:

Indian Air Force Wants Home-Grown AWACS To Double As Tanker

While the Indian Air Force kickstarts a fresh hunt for flight refueling aircraft, India’s indigenous airborne warning and control system (AWACS) program has also gathered steam. In an interesting twist, the IAF has officially asked the Defence Research & Development Organisation to move forward in such a way that the resulting AWACS jets are fitted to play the additional role of mid-air refueling tankers.

Speaking exclusively to Livefist, DRDO chief S. Christopher said, “While we are developing the complete AWACS system based on the Airbus A330 platform, the IAF has asked us to add the refueling capability. This could be for escort aircraft or other situations where such a dual role functionality could be critical. We are in discussions with Airbus regarding this.”

While India’s quest for eight flight refueling aircraft is all set to be a clash between the Airbus A330 MRTT and the Boeing KC-46, the DRDO’s indigenous AWACS platform will be Airbus A330, a selection made four years ago. In 2015, the Indian government officially approved the program and sanctioned finances to the tune of over $800 million for costs that would include modifications and the first two A330 aircraft.

Christopher reveals that the percentage increase in cost of kitting up the Airbus A330 for AWACS-tanker dual functionality is roughly 17 per cent.

“Because of the additional tanker functionality requirement, there have been some delays, but we’ve made up for it on our side by completing developing of the radome antenna that will be the centrepiece of the AWACS,” Christopher reveals. Built at the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) in Bengaluru, the 12.5 tonne antenna is near ready for integration on an A330 once modifications on the first aircraft are complete.

With work now in progress to develop India’s AWACS with tanker functionality, it remains unclear whether this could have an impact on the soon to be floated tanker contest between Airbus and Boeing. Airbus, which emerged a winner in two aborted contests for IAF tankers (Boeing didn’t compete in those first two contests) appears to have something of an advantage with the Indian AWACS program choosing to fold in a tanker role into its mission profile. However, as Livefist has noted before, there could be several other factors at play too.

Christopher adds, “In Bengaluru we’ve finished the radome. So, we are very confident of moving quickly. The aircraft manufacturer won’t have to wait for us. They will have questions on performance and structural rigidity, but we are working concurrently, so those issues have been sorted out too. Is it safe to fly? Those answers we don’t have to worry about now because we have moved quickly — we can show and prove ourselves that we are capable of doing that and we’ve done it. We’ve ticked all the boxes so far.”

For the DRDO chief, the program hits close to home. Himself a product of the Centre for Airborne Systems that’s building India’s AWACS — and a sensor scientist by training — this is additionally a prestige project for Christopher and one that he cannot afford to let slip. Christopher retires in May this year, though sources say his tenure as DRDO chief could be extended.

More at : https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...nts-home-grown-awacs-to-double-as-tanker.html
 
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Having AWACS as Refueller is absurd idea.
AWACS will carry its own mission load and crew, and add to it, extra fuel , would it carry enough fuel to share ?
I believe that AWACS should be separate than Refuellers, but having extra fuel in AWACS that can in emergency be used to fuel its escort would make sense.
Its same as when IAF thinks to use national highway as emergency runways, but those are not the right places to conduct regular operations from. Like I said, IAF does not have a clue what it needs, It just has stupid wants

The idea to have an AWAC as a refueller is a brilliant idea. That will make an AWAC a real force multiplier.
 
If my sources are correct, India is going ahead with the KC-777 Strategic Refuellers. The aircraft will be wider body version of the KC-46 program (based on Boeing 767) in process of replacing the KC-135s held by US and allied nations

Being based on Boeing 777-200LR, the KC-777 (as the programme is touted) will be able to carry more than 160T of fuel and offload about 100T at a range of 900 kms (500 nm) as opposed to the 90T & 60T respectively for the KC-46. Alternatively, it can carry 37 pallets as opposed to 19 for KC-46.

Any info about Number of tankers we are looking for ..

6 as in previous tenders?
 
If my sources are correct, India is going ahead with the KC-777 Strategic Refuellers. The aircraft will be wider body version of the KC-46 program (based on Boeing 767) in process of replacing the KC-135s held by US and allied nations

Being based on Boeing 777-200LR, the KC-777 (as the programme is touted) will be able to carry more than 160T of fuel and offload about 100T at a range of 900 kms (500 nm) as opposed to the 90T & 60T respectively for the KC-46. Alternatively, it can carry 37 pallets as opposed to 19 for KC-46.

Personally, I don't really see it working out. B777 is the best wide body aircraft out in the market today, but we need to recall why A330 could not make the cut last 2 times. Despite being the similar platform chosen for AWACS India program, MoF continuously rejected the platform citing higher procurement costs.
"We have [recently] cancelled the MRTT deal with Airbus because platforms are too expensive and not economically viable to operate", said an MoD official who declined to be identified.

"We have examined this deal very carefully and the [budgetary] approval has been rejected thrice by the Indian finance ministry," the MoD official said.

India Calls Off Airbus MRTT Aircraft Deal, Might Consider Russian IL-78 Tanker

Now to realize that B777 is a more expensive platform in terms of procurement as well as operational costs, how do we justify creating infrastructure for two different wide body aircraft for our AWACS and Tanker requirements? Also to be considered is the fact that B777-200LR is soon going out of production in next few years to make way for B777-8X which although more efficient is even more expensive as a platform.

Just to be clear, B777 brings huge capability and is a brilliant aircraft, I have personal experience working on both A330 and B777 platforms. I just find it difficult to expect a purchase from IAF for a product that failed to meet a utility with any air force in the world given the difficulty they have faced with purchasing an A330 platform which is significantly cheaper and very successful in its utility.

Unit cost in list prices (Civillian versions) in US$ Millions

A330-200F 241.7 Millions
A330-800(current) 259.9 Millions

B777-200F 339.2 Millions
B777-8X(future) 394.9 Millions

Airbus 2018 Price List Press Release

Boeing: About Boeing Commercial Airplanes

If common sense prevails in MoD/MoF, A330 MRTT is the way ahead for IAF. Coupled with the 8 AWACS India platforms, we could have a sizable fleet that could justify even C Check level maintenance infrastructure. This will make more logical and logistical sense than investing on additional aircraft type for a small fleet. Just a personal opinion from someone with decent exposure to both platforms.

Good Day!
 
Personally, I don't really see it working out. B777 is the best wide body aircraft out in the market today, but we need to recall why A330 could not make the cut last 2 times. Despite being the similar platform chosen for AWACS India program, MoF continuously rejected the platform citing higher procurement costs.


Now to realize that B777 is a more expensive platform in terms of procurement as well as operational costs, how do we justify creating infrastructure for two different wide body aircraft for our AWACS and Tanker requirements? Also to be considered is the fact that B777-200LR is soon going out of production in next few years to make way for B777-8X which although more efficient is even more expensive as a platform.

Just to be clear, B777 brings huge capability and is a brilliant aircraft, I have personal experience working on both A330 and B777 platforms. I just find it difficult to expect a purchase from IAF for a product that failed to meet a utility with any air force in the world given the difficulty they have faced with purchasing an A330 platform which is significantly cheaper and very successful in its utility.

Unit cost in list prices (Civillian versions) in US$ Millions

A330-200F 241.7 Millions
A330-800(current) 259.9 Millions

B777-200F 339.2 Millions
B777-8X(future) 394.9 Millions

Airbus 2018 Price List Press Release

Boeing: About Boeing Commercial Airplanes

If common sense prevails in MoD/MoF, A330 MRTT is the way ahead for IAF. Coupled with the 8 AWACS India platforms, we could have a sizable fleet that could justify even C Check level maintenance infrastructure. This will make more logical and logistical sense than investing on additional aircraft type for a small fleet. Just a personal opinion from someone with decent exposure to both platforms.

Good Day!


i also wanted to know , is this a substitute for Political F s fighter deal ?

or recent reports of dual role of Tanker & AWACS in one platform is getting go ?
 
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i also wanted to know , is this a substitute for Political F s fighter deal ?

Would have made more sense to go with KC-46 Pegasus in that case. With 179 units on order for US and 3 units for Japan. Japan ordered them for about $173 million per tanker.

Japan chooses Boeing KC-46, halting Airbus tanker winning streak

or recent reports of combining Tanker & AWACS in one platform is getting go ?

There is no talk of Boeing accepting a Radar Dome installation on the B777. DRDO is currently engaged with Airbus for an initial order of 2 A330s for AWACS India program. Any wide-bodied AWACS aircraft could technically do limited AAR with Probe-and-drogue equipment installed on the wings, since the fuel for delivery is diverted from the same wing/center fuel tanks reserved for the aircraft endurance. But this will significantly dent the 15 hour endurance requirement set for AWACS India platform by IAF. However, limited AAR for escort aircraft might be the envisioned utility for such an idea, which is feasible.

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It might be a bit late to consider a different platform for the AWACS program considering the pace at which we usually negotiate.

In a decision taken on 25 March, the Defence Acquisition Council, led by defence minister Manohar Parrikar, apportioned a sum of €750 million ($813 million) for the acquisition of two A330s.

A330 selected for AWACS India project

Good Day!
 
Would have made more sense to go with KC-46 Pegasus in that case. With 179 units on order for US and 3 units for Japan. Japan ordered them for about $173 million per tanker.

Japan chooses Boeing KC-46, halting Airbus tanker winning streak



There is no talk of Boeing accepting a Radar Dome installation on the B777. DRDO is currently engaged with Airbus for an initial order of 2 A330s for AWACS India program. Any wide-bodied AWACS aircraft could technically do limited AAR with Probe-and-drogue equipment installed on the wings, since the fuel for delivery is diverted from the same wing/center fuel tanks reserved for the aircraft endurance. But this will significantly dent the 15 hour endurance requirement set for AWACS India platform by IAF. However, limited AAR for escort aircraft might be the envisioned utility for such an idea, which is feasible.

maxresdefault.jpg


It might be a bit late to consider a different platform for the AWACS program considering the pace at which we usually negotiate.



Good Day!


how does this KC 777 perform compared to C17 Globemaster in transport role ?
 
how does this KC 777 perform compared to C17 Globemaster in transport role ?

Most primary difference being the absence of Rear ramps on the 777 as well as the lack of ability to perform landing/take-off on semi prepared runways. KC777, if realized as a project will be useful for troop transport in the Main deck as well as pallet transport in the Lower Deck - Forward and Rear Cargo bays. Personally, if a KC777 was ever to come, a B777-200F Freighter would make more sense than a B777-200LR due to the Main deck cargo space availability against the cabin on LR version.

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KC777 will however have a cargo payload capability of roughly 100 tonnes compared to about 75 Tonnes of C-17. But absence of rear ramp restricts the size/volume of cargo that can be carried on the 777. Being a civil derived aircraft, B777 is expected to require longer runways for take-off/landing. C-17 are commonly used for Air-drop which is not possible with any of the Tanker/Transports derived from civil aircraft.

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B777-300F-diagram_tcm87-4255.jpg


Some Interesting media of B777F:

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Main Cargo Bay
-1x-1.jpg

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Lower Cargo Bay


Some Interesting media of C17:


time-lapse-of-activities-in-the-cargo-bay-of-a-military-cargo-plane_bsehaqtad__F0000.png

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Nato submarine system along with transport truck

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Good Day!
 
If my sources are correct, India is going ahead with the KC-777 Strategic Refuellers. The aircraft will be wider body version of the KC-46 program (based on Boeing 767) in process of replacing the KC-135s held by US and allied nations

Being based on Boeing 777-200LR, the KC-777 (as the programme is touted) will be able to carry more than 160T of fuel and offload about 100T at a range of 900 kms (500 nm) as opposed to the 90T & 60T respectively for the KC-46. Alternatively, it can carry 37 pallets as opposed to 19 for KC-46.
Question is if its modified civilian aircraft of new ones. RFI asks for both.
 
Will get back on that as soon as I get something concrete. What I have more or less confirmed (as we may still head in a completely reverse direction till as such time a platform does land :D) I have shared.

can we take a median of 5 years for both tankers & MMRCA to get contract officially awarded?
 
Update:

Further to KC-777 post of mine. Seems that the whole project was a red herring. The complete procurement program for refuellers has been put on back burner with the reason of lack of funds. The reason remains silly, but the government is unwilling to accord permission for any procurement yet without upgrade of IL-78s being first undertaken (as far as I could make out from what was doing the circles).

IL-76 will undergo upgrades first, not IL-78.

Also, the A330s that have been chosen for AWACS-India will have a secondary refueling capability. So we are getting 6-8 A330 AWACS/refuelers by 2024.
 
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IL-76 will undergo upgrades first, not IL-78.

Also, the A330s that have been chosen for AWACS-India will have a secondary refueling capability. So we are getting 6-8 A330 AWACS/refuelers by 2024.
Seems like a cock eyed idea. Which country operates an AC serving dual needs as diverse as AWACS as well as a refueller?
 
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