MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 32 13.4%

  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 78.2%

  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 1.7%

  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.5%

  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Total voters
    239
Picdelamirand-oil said:
This is why we have replaced 593 old planes by 152 Rafales, we don't need any more and we can even offer 12 second-hand planes to Greece and 12 others to Croatia! We still have about a hundred Mirage 2000 to replace, which will be possible with the 28 Rafale already ordered from Dassault, and then we will order another 30 to reinforce the air force with more F4.2 compatible versions.
Click to expand...
Given the state of relationship between France & India, there's an excellent case to be made for induction of a few squadrons of Mirage 2000s to make up for our rapidly depleting numbers especially around 2024-25 when we'd be retiring our last batch of MiG-21s.

Assuming these airframes have a decade worth of life in them give or take a few years & are upgraded to more or less the standards of the IAF , getting them around 2026-27 shouldn't be a bad deal for the IAF at all.

As far as those seeing the Armee de l'air's decision as being audacious enough, let's face it, the French aren't exactly war gaming against the Chinese or even the Russians. For the level of threats they face, the Rafale suffices. Having said that, it'd be interesting to see how the French fare when confronted by say, the Turks who're not exactly in the Syria or Libya category leave aside the Chads & Malis of the world.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JustCurious
_Anonymous_ said:
Given the state of relationship between France & India, there's an excellent case to be made for induction of a few squadrons of Mirage 2000s to make up for our rapidly depleting numbers especially around 2024-25 when we'd be retiring our last batch of MiG-21s.

Assuming these airframes have a decade worth of life in them give or take a few years & are upgraded to more or less the standards of the IAF , getting them around 2026-27 shouldn't be a bad deal for the IAF at all.

As far as those seeing the Armee de l'air's decision as being audacious enough, let's face it, the French aren't exactly war gaming against the Chinese or even the Russians. For the level of threats they face, the Rafale suffices. Having said that, it'd be interesting to see how the French fare when confronted by say, the Turks who're not exactly in the Syria or Libya category leave aside the Chads & Malis of the world.
Click to expand...
Second hand mirages to counter china & pakistan together?
 
_Anonymous_ said:
Given the state of relationship between France & India, there's an excellent case to be made for induction of a few squadrons of Mirage 2000s to make up for our rapidly depleting numbers especially around 2024-25 when we'd be retiring our last batch of MiG-21s.

Assuming these airframes have a decade worth of life in them give or take a few years & are upgraded to more or less the standards of the IAF , getting them around 2026-27 shouldn't be a bad deal for the IAF at all.
Click to expand...
If you're talking about getting the French Mirages, I doubt they'd still have a decade worth of life in them when they're retired. More like a couple years, perhaps.

Especially since Greece's emergency purchase of second-hand Rafales is going to delay the transition of a squadron from Mirage to Rafale, meaning that some of the Mirages will get to fly longer than originally scheduled.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: _Anonymous_
_Anonymous_ said:
If you've a better suggestion to make up depleting squadrons immediately, I'm all ears.
Click to expand...
MMRCA2 & Tejas. Nothing else.
If you are asking our force to have second hand fighter with yesterday technology on an airframe with limited life, then that will be a regular practice in india. The civilian regime in India will ask the force to use that option each and every time. I know that, i have seen with my own eyes.
 
Hydra said:
MMRCA2 & Tejas. Nothing else.
If you are asking our force to have second hand fighter with yesterday technology on an airframe with limited life, then that will be a regular practice in india. The civilian regime in India will ask the force to use that option each and every time. I know that, i have seen with my own eyes.
Click to expand...
Both of which are going to take time.

In the meanwhile, we're retiring planes which under any circumstances are past their sell by dates with no immediate replacements due. Add to it the fact that we're facing an unprecedented situation on the borders which will hasten the end lives of those rickety airframes due to frequent usage.

To the best of my knowledge we haven't ever gone in for used air frames ever . The closest we've come to doing so are refurbishment of the MiG 29s but those were mothballed by the RuAF a long time ago with negligible service time.

Apart from that, I haven't come across news of any platform which saw usage by the armed forces of a nation & which we've procured 2nd hand with the exception of INS Vikramaditya . But that too has a precedent in Vikrant & Virat.

If you've news to the contrary pls do share it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lolwa
Lolwa said:
Ordering the mk1a would solve our problems but the government ain't doing shit...
Click to expand...
The Mk1a isn't going to come before 2023 & that's probably when we'd see the first plane being handed over to the IAF. For the full complement of 83 planes we're easily looking at 2029-30 time lines @12-15 p.a.

We'd be retiring all the MiGs by 2024-25 which were supposed to be retired by 2021-22. Then there's the whole complement of MiG-23, MiG-27 & MiG-21 - some 400-500 of which we've already retired for which the MMRCA-1.0 was supposedly the replacement. This is apart from the heavy attrition during peacetime given our training schedules & exercises.

Options for an immediate replacement range between more Su-30MKI( seems unlikely given the IAFs reservation to adding for HMRCAs (?) & of course total upgradation including engines to Super Sukhoi status - we may well see more numbers once the entire package is finalised which as the grapevine goes is held up due to the engine which is undergoing testing & should be available by 2022 ) the 36 ( +36) Rafales to the 32+8 LCA-Mk1( sub optimal) to the refurbished MiG-29s.

You can do the math & see how many squadrons we'd be replacing by 2025 in case those additional Rafales & Su-30MKI aren't ordered by then.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lolwa
_Anonymous_ said:
The Mk1a isn't going to come before 2023 & that's probably when we'd see the first plane being handed over to the IAF. For the full complement of 83 planes we're easily looking at 2029-30 time lines @12-15 p.a.

We'd be retiring all the MiGs by 2024-25 which were supposed to be retired by 2021-22. Then there's the whole complement of MiG-23, MiG-27 & MiG-21 - some 400-500 of which we've already retired for which the MMRCA-1.0 was supposedly the replacement. This is apart from the heavy attrition during peacetime given our training schedules & exercises.

Options for an immediate replacement range between more Su-30MKI( seems unlikely given the IAFs reservation to adding for HMRCAs (?) & of course total upgradation including engines to Super Sukhoi status - we may well see more numbers once the entire package is finalised which as the grapevine goes is held up due to the engine which is undergoing testing & should be available by 2022 ) the 36 ( +36) Rafales to the 32+8 LCA-Mk1( sub optimal) to the refurbished MiG-29s.

You can do the math & see how many squadrons we'd be replacing by 2025 in case those additional Rafales & Su-30MKI aren't ordered by then.
Click to expand...
Personally if we want to get as many aircrafts. We have to deals with the qataris,French and Taiwanese mirages. That would be fast and start upgrading our super sukhois. Would take around 10billion$ but an immediate deal would be a much better deal. The mmrca won't start before 2021 so thats that. Get the mirage upgrade sukhois buy another 36 rafale's get the engine tech. Then just focus on MWF. If you are still not satisfied then buy on of the American teens with mmrca and finish this torture...
 
Lolwa said:
Personally if we want to get as many aircrafts. We have to deals with the qataris,French and Taiwanese mirages. That would be fast and start upgrading our super sukhois. Would take around 10billion$ but an immediate deal would be a much better deal. The mmrca won't start before 2021 so thats that. Get the mirage upgrade sukhois buy another 36 rafale's get the engine tech. Then just focus on MWF. If you are still not satisfied then buy on of the American teens with mmrca and finish this torture...
Click to expand...
If the purpose of the MMRCA-2.0 was doubtful in the pre Wuhan virus era, it's practically redundant today. Financial issues apart, we'd see incremental ordering of Rafales all through this decade ( & the next) in tranches of 36 each till we get a full complement of 8-10 squadrons of it much like how we went about the procuring the Su-30 MKI.

The MMRCA-2.0 was always Plan B in case the ADA failed to deliver on it's promises of the MWF to the satisfaction of the IAF. The day the MWF takes to the skies, you'd see the official burial of the tender of the MMRCA-2.0.

All of this jugglery still doesn't explain how we're going to make up for falling squadron numbers in the interim.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Killbot, Sathya and JustCurious
We
_Anonymous_ said:
If the purpose of the MMRCA-2.0 was doubtful in the pre Wuhan virus era, it's practically redundant today. Financial issues apart, we'd see incremental ordering of Rafales all through this decade ( & the next) in tranches of 36 each till we get a full complement of 8-10 squadrons of it much like how we went about the procuring the Su-30 MKI.

The MMRCA-2.0 was always Plan B in case the ADA failed to deliver on it's promises of the MWF to the satisfaction of the IAF. The day the MWF takes to the skies, you'd see the official burial of the tender of the MMRCA-2.0.

All of this jugglery still doesn't explain how we're going to make up for falling squadron numbers in the interim.
Click to expand...
We can't, with the current budget allocation we won't be able to cross 40 squadrons forget the dream of having a 42-45 IAF fleet. We have to increase our gdp expenditure on defence to around 3-4% of gdp. Even after that we will have to give majority share to IAF and IN in proportion to the army if we want a decently capable air force to take on China..
 
  • Agree
  • Like
Reactions: Hydra and JustCurious
Right now, the IAF has 3 Plan As, zero Plan Bs. It's everybody else who thinks IAF has Plan Bs or hoping they have one.

First Plan A: MRFA... There is no Plan B. But HAL is hoping ORCA becomes the IAF's Plan B, not an IAF plan.

Second Plan A: LCA Mk2... SAAB and Lock Mart are hoping their jets are Plan B, not an IAF plan.

Third Plan A: AMCA...

All three Plan As are important and the success or failure of either does not affect the other.

There was no Plan B for MMRCA either. Rafale GTG was simply a stopgap to delay Plan A to a later date.

As for second-hand Mirages, they won't come cheap. The basic cost of the upgrade of the jets was about $50M per jet back in 2009. Today, it could be at least 20% more. This doesn't include the cost of setting up new infrastructure or even buying the jets. A better option is to buy a comparatively lesser number of Rafales for the same amount. The cost of each Mirage could cost at least $80-90M with all bells and whistles, whereas the Rafale costs about twice that at $170M with the same kind of inventory. So instead of going for 40 M2000s, the better option would be 20 more Rafales. Even cheaper when you consider the Rafale has excess infrastructure.

Dassault will have a fully functioning Rafale/Falcon line in India by 2022. So any new Rafales ordered today can be delivered from their Nagpur facility. Delivery of new Rafales will be faster than upgrading M2000s, which is actually a much more difficult process than building from scratch and comes with a lot of risk. Case in point, the loss of an upgraded trainer and both the TPs a few years ago.
 
  • Like
  • Agree
Reactions: Bon Plan, Bali78 and Lolwa
I feel LCA is the best to raise the squad numbers quantitative ly.

Increase the numbers made per year .

Full throttle 24/ year or make a private line too considering Mk1 A, MWF, TEDBF, AMCA are all in pipeline and all are needed TODAY.

We cannot afford go slow when quantity is needed.

Increase MK1 FOC squad strength by 1 or 2 ,, so that more numbers can built per year .

FOC MK1 is set to be upgraded to Mk1A anyways. Maybe exception being refuel probe & plumbing.

When M1 A is ready, let's still order more per year until MWF gets ready.

Let the tip of spear be Rafale .

India seem to upgrade Su 30 mki by itself in peace meal.
SDR, AAM missiles, SAAW & Garuthamma.. Bombs..
 
  • Like
Reactions: JustCurious
Sathya said:
@Falcon

https://twitter.com/x/status/1309798577623896064

You have made choice of F16/18 long back.. Then after Mig 21 shooting down F16, said F18...

More than what type of aircraft that has more chances to win, it's WHEN that's bothering..

And are we going to club IAF & IN fighter requirements together or separate for each?

Like F18 for Navy & Rafale for IAF?
Click to expand...
There is a very likely chance of all Mig-29Ks being transferred to IAF and IN operating full SH F18 fleet. So IN will get about 100 SH F18s and IAF will get 44 Mig-29Ks plus addtional 21 MIG-29s from Russia and another 80 SH F18s.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sathya
Picdelamirand-oil said:
The Jaguar, it was before experimenting with the Rafale 😛
Click to expand...
But the aircraft wich ditched in favor of jaguar is very familiar one for you, its mirage F1. The sole reason for Jaguar purchase was that, the decision had come from political leadership.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom