MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Bon Plan]

The F-15EX naysayers often contend that even the most advanced fourth-generation fighters won’t be able to operate in future contested environments :

In Farnborough, a figure played by Yves Kerherve on Rafale M

We are waiting (a very long time) for the same from a F15. even F15EX !

 

[randomradio]

From a retire F-15 pilot :
"
The F-15EX naysayers often contend that even the most advanced fourth-generation fighters won’t be able to operate in future contested environments, that they are “incapable of participating against peer threats” — some have even gone as far as calling the idea of buying the F-15EX a moral issue. A think tank analysis best summarizes this camp’s flawed logic: “It is hard to imagine any high-end scenario where [these] fighters will be able to operate.”


Recall that strategic competition is largely about generating disruption. Broadly speaking, disruption typically happens in two ways. At one end is innovation, which military leadership has been endlessly calling for. This is reflected in the surge of research and development funding to explore promising new technology that takes many years to mature and manifest (if ever). At the other end is adaption, where users of equipment find new ways to use combinations of what is available. Where the former is slow, bureaucratic, and well-funded, the latter is exactly the opposite.
Adaption, not innovation, is the compelling variable in rapidly linking emergent strategies with deliberate strategies in strategic competition. Operators live in a world where the hope of innovation is not an option — we go to war with what we have. We adapt by embracing industriousness, ingenuity, and creativity to generate advantages on the battlefield and in the sky — we call this being tactical. Applying this mentality strategically would get the Air Force off the beaten path to find more rapid and disruptive ways to economically compete. Stop thinking about the F-15EX as a fighter and start viewing it as an adaptable platform."

F-15EX: The Strategic Blind Spot in the Air Force’s Fighter Debate

The fallout from the U.S. Air Force’s request to buy F-15EX fighter jets to replace the aging F-15C/D Eagle has certainly been entertaining. Largely

warontherocks.com

As for the Rafale.

All he's saying is the F-15EX has modern avionics similar to the F-35, and can carry a larger payload to a longer range and that this provides some advantage over the F-35.

 

[Hydra]

All he's saying is the F-15EX has modern avionics similar to the F-35, and can carry a larger payload to a longer range and that this provides some advantage over the F-35.

Its actually an advantage i guess, may not be for USAF since they have one of the finest bomber but for countries like us.

 

[randomradio]

Its actually an advantage i guess, may not be for USAF since they have one of the finest bomber but for countries like us.

As I've already pointed out, the MKI is better. Way better.

 

[Shekhar Singh]

If we shortlist mig 35 with India specific enhancements and integrate our stuffs like Uttam AESA, and other equipments developed for MWF and indigenous weapons like Astra mk1, astra mk2, Rudram series, Saw etc. then it will come very cheap and the money saved can be used to buy 36 more Rafales and more MWFs.

 

[Hydra]

If we shortlist mig 35 with India specific enhancements and integrate our stuffs like Uttam AESA, and other equipments developed for MWF and indigenous weapons like Astra mk1, astra mk2, Rudram series, Saw etc. then it will come very cheap and the money saved can be used to buy 36 more Rafales and more MWFs.

Why do you want to choose cheap weapons at the cost of utility and effectiveness. Typical indian mentality....

If we shortlist mig 35 with India specific enhancements and integrate our stuffs like Uttam AESA, and other equipments developed for MWF and indigenous weapons like Astra mk1, astra mk2, Rudram series, Saw etc. then it will come very cheap and the money saved can be used to buy 36 more Rafales and more MWFs.

Why do you want to choose cheap weapons at the cost of utility and effectiveness. Typical indian mentality....

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Why do you want to choose cheap weapons at the cost of utility and effectiveness. Typical indian mentality....

Why do you want to choose cheap weapons at the cost of utility and effectiveness. Typical indian mentality....

To increase squadron no in cheaper way.
Some where it was quoted that might 35 costs only 45mn per unit. If we can do the enhancements with our indigenous stufs then it will come more cheaper. May be just one third of rafale. So after getting 114 Mig 35s you will still have money for some 60 to 70 rafales.

 

[Lolwa]

If we shortlist mig 35 with India specific enhancements and integrate our stuffs like Uttam AESA, and other equipments developed for MWF and indigenous weapons like Astra mk1, astra mk2, Rudram series, Saw etc. then it will come very cheap and the money saved can be used to buy 36 more Rafales and more MWFs.

Better to go for Rafale. I think we should rather invest on tejas since it's pretty much close in capability to f16 gripen and mig 35. Gripen E is the only plane that is quantitatively on par with Rafale in terms of electronics..
Ordering 400-500 tejas would help our aero ecosystem much more than producing 90's junk..

 

[randomradio]

If we shortlist mig 35 with India specific enhancements and integrate our stuffs like Uttam AESA, and other equipments developed for MWF and indigenous weapons like Astra mk1, astra mk2, Rudram series, Saw etc. then it will come very cheap and the money saved can be used to buy 36 more Rafales and more MWFs.

LCA Mk2 is better than Mig-35.

 

[Shekhar Singh]

LCA Mk2 is better than Mig-35.

You are right.
But if MMRCA is necessary then....

One engine lca mk2 vs two engine mig35 (with all lca mk2 electronics, radar and weapons except engine).

Its quickest way to fill squadron nos.

We can have 114 mig 35s and approx 70 rafales in same amount.

 

[_Anonymous_]

You are right.
But if MMRCA is necessary then....

One engine lca mk2 vs two engine mig35 (with all lca mk2 electronics, radar and weapons except engine).

Its quickest way to fill squadron nos.

We can have 114 mig 35s and approx 70 rafales in same amount.

The IAF is primarily looking out for a DPSU . Out of all the aircrafts available Rafale fulfills this role the best. I don't think the MiG 35 comes anywhere close to it or is actually a DPSU to begin with.

 

[randomradio]

You are right.
But if MMRCA is necessary then....

One engine lca mk2 vs two engine mig35 (with all lca mk2 electronics, radar and weapons except engine).

Its quickest way to fill squadron nos.

We can have 114 mig 35s and approx 70 rafales in same amount.

When you bring in LCC, the Mig-35 becomes way more expensive than the Rafale. When you bring in capability, the Mig-35 will fall way short compared to the Rafale. Those 70 Rafales will be many times more capable than the 114 Mig-35s while being significantly cheaper. You can say that 36 Rafales are more than enough to match those 114 Mig-35s, that's how much of a gap there really is.

Anyway, the Russians will create complications when it comes to ToT thereby delaying the program by many years. They do this so HAL will be forced to transfer their production responsibilities back to Russia in order to maintain deadline. This has happened many times during the production of the MKI. So unless you are directly importing Mig-35s from Russia, it is the slowest way to fill squadron numbers.

The quickest would be Dassault due to the new assembly line in India.

There's no point in just filling up numbers without considering capabilities. Rafale can do everything Mig-35 and LCA Mk2 can do. But Mig-35 and LCA can't do everything Rafale can do. And what we actually want out of the LCA, the Mig-35 can't do. So the Mig-35 is the exact opposite of what we want out of our jets while being the most expensive of the three.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[Bon Plan]

Some where it was quoted that might 35 costs only 45mn per unit. If we can do the enhancements with our indigenous stufs then it will come more cheaper. May be just one third of rafale.

A dry Rafale is sell 70 € millions. If you agree Mig 35 is 45 $ million, your maths are wrong.
If you take in account the availaibility of the two birds, it's even more wrong.

 

[Shekhar Singh]

A dry Rafale is sell 70 € millions. If you agree Mig 35 is 45 $ million, your maths are wrong.
If you take in account the availaibility of the two birds, it's even more wrong.

I have assumed Rafael price at 90mn $ and Mig35's 30mn$ after exclusion of russian AESA, russian weapons, and russian EW suits.
BTW @randomradio has explained me about my incorrect assumptions but not my maths.

 

[kor4116]

There is new news about the export of Rafale fighters to Indonesia. According to the article, on February 11, Dassault officials visited the Indonesian Ministry of Defense and discussed an offset for procuring Rafale aircraft.https://www.cnbcindonesia.com/news/20210214102822-4-223173/bakal-beli-jet-tempur-rafale-prancis-serius-dekati-prabowo

 

[Bon Plan]

There is new news about the export of Rafale fighters to Indonesia. According to the article, on February 11, Dassault officials visited the Indonesian Ministry of Defense and discussed an offset for procuring Rafale aircraft.View attachment 19334https://www.cnbcindonesia.com/news/20210214102822-4-223173/bakal-beli-jet-tempur-rafale-prancis-serius-dekati-prabowo

Dassault is in talk with so many potential customers.... Irak, Switzerland, Finland, Croatioa, Malaysia, UAE, another batch for Egypt, another batch for India....
Just wait a firm order.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

It turns out that for the UAE as for Egypt, as well as for Greece, an important criterion in the possible choice of the Rafale is that of its interoperability with the American systems as well as with those of other countries. This is moreover one of the reasons that leads Egypt to consider new acquisitions of the French aircraft, since its Rafales currently in service would be regularly used to interconnect Western and Russian aircraft. In this field, the arrival of the F4 standard in the coming years will further strengthen the Rafale's ability to interact and exchange data with other aircraft, whether European, American or Russian.

With this standard, the Rafale will be equipped with the new "Contact" software radios. These new-generation radios are compatible with old and future waveforms and have started to be tested by the DGA on the Rafale. The flexibility of these radios is an asset for using the Rafale as a transmission node.

The Rafale will also be equipped with a new, discrete, directional, high-speed tactical data link that can be used for communications and information sharing within a Rafale patrol using a three-dimensional waveform (FO3D, or Forme d'Onde 3 Dimensions) generated by digital synthesis using antennas adapted to the bandwidths and rates expected. This new tactical data link will complement - but not replace - the current L16 link.

The F4 standard weapon system is therefore designed to support 2 tactical data links. It should be possible to configure some Rafales to use this feature to communicate between two different worlds.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Indonesia to boost air force with F-15EX, Rafale jets​

Indonesian Air Force plans to buy 36 Rafale, 8 F-15EX jets by 2024, existing aircraft to be upgraded too, says air chief​

JAKARTA, Indonesia

Indonesia will purchase F-15EX jets from Boeing and Rafale fighter aircraft from France between 2021 and 2024, the head of its air force said on Thursday.

The country will also buy C-130J transport planes and medium-altitude long-endurance unmanned combat aerial vehicles, Marshal Fajar Prasetyo, chief of staff of the Indonesian Air Force, said at the annual Air Force Leadership Meeting.

According to the meeting’s summary document, Indonesia plans to buy 36 Rafale and eight F-15EX jets, with six of the latter expected to arrive by 2022.

Along with the new additions, the air force will also modernize its existing combat aircraft this year, Prasetyo said.

He said Indonesia’s defense procurement plans have undergone several changes in view of global conditions and the country's capacity.

“Despite having guidelines for posture, strategic plan, and Minimum Essential Force, the implementation is very dependent on various factors and conditions that keep changing dynamically,” Prasetyo said.

He explained that all stakeholders, including the Defense Ministry and the Indonesian Air Force, had analyzed and discussed plans to solve procurement issues.

“This is solely to facilitate our steps in obtaining the best defense equipment that meets operational requirements, commonality aspects, obtaining the transfer of technology, in line with the state's capability and the condition of the Indonesian Air Force,” he said.



* Writing by Rhany Chairunissa Rufinaldo from Anadolu Agency's Indonesian language services in Jakarta

 

[AbRaj]

As per the gamer “It’s so easy that it’s ridiculous”