MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

It's nice to see that.
Too nice.
But.... not too good to be true ?

The 36 extra jets is pretty much assured as long as Modi comes back.

For IN I'm afraid the politics will try to play the US card to diversify and buy the US card.

IN will never choose SH. They want a high performance fighter. The only way SH can win is if it is better and cheaper than Rafale, which we both know it is not.

Since the numbers is only 57, there's also the advantage of Indian production for Rafale, while SH will have to be imported fully. So even the political advantage is with Rafale since the MoD would prefer paying rupees with local production rather than import. Rafale also has the extra advantage of $2B in customization which the IAF has already paid for. There will be a number of other Rafale improvements also that the IAF will pay for, like Astra, Sudarshan, Nirbhay, Brahmos, AAW and ARM integration. So there is little to no chance for SH to compete.

Boeing in fact has to pay a lot just to bring SH to current Rafale standards, not gonna happen.

Too many advantages for Rafale.

The only problem for both jets is whether both carriers can operate either jet. But both jets will need the same modifications anyway.

 

[Milspec]

The second order is coming up post elections. And production will be in phases, along with IN's order for 57 jets.

Reference?

The IAF tender is a dog and pony show for the Rafale. Once the first order of 36 and IN's order of 57 come through, the IAF tender for 110 jets will also go to Rafale. And then the IN will order another 100 jets for IAC-2. Total production for Rafale will be 300+ without options.

credible source?

And before production starts, Dassault will build 2 Rafales in India with their own funds to train the Indian workforce.

An order that has not been confirmed and Dassault has already earmarked resources to build the first two?

Overall, it won't be the SKD/CKD joke that we have been doing with MKI,

Source from any dassult official stating the same?

we have only actually manufactured only 60 jets, with over 20 still pending. Dassault wants even new export orders to be fulfilled from the Indian plant because they expect the Rafale's made in India to be 20% cheaper than French made Rafales.

Reference? timeframe? and export to whom? what is revenue sharing agreement with Reliance?

No relation. Military projects are under Reliance Infrastructure. The companies in trouble are under Reliance Communication. Rel Infra has been in the black since a long time.

Now that is utter bullshit, Reliance Naval too is under Reliance Infra and will soon go to NCLT. and Reliance Infra itself is heavily debt laden entity.

Here is reliance infrastructure's debt snapshot

Now this is Reliance infrastucture defence structure

And neatly tucked away in that chart is the shiniest turd "Reliance Naval System" aka Pipavav

This straight in its defense business, you can also look at the borrowings from it;s power business which is supposed to be cash cow, half of the profits just go to pay interests.

this is all in reliance infra not, Comm, not nikon asset mgmt, not reliance capital. Just infrastructure.

 

[randomradio]

Reference?


credible source?


An order that has not been confirmed and Dassault has already earmarked resources to build the first two?



Source from any dassult official stating the same?

All I can say is wait and watch.

Reference? timeframe? and export to whom? what is revenue sharing agreement with Reliance?

This would be the sticky point. Production for India will be driven by govt stipulations while exports will likely be purely profit driven. So if the govt says Indian Rafales should have its radar made in India, then Thales will have to comply. But if it is cheaper to assemble in India while it's cheaper to manufacture the radar in France, then that's how it will be for exports.

If what DRAL said is true and a Rafale produced in India will be 20% cheaper, then it's obvious Dassault will leverage that advantage for other markets. Not to mention, the new tender will require some exports to go out of India as well. So this is a long term objective.

As of now, there is some talk that 20 of the 60 UAE Rafales will be made in India.

Here is reliance infrastructure's debt snapshot
View attachment 2629

It's a healthy company with similar assets and liabilities. Its revenue and profits have been growing every year.

And neatly tucked away in that chart is the shiniest turd "Reliance Naval System" aka Pipavav

View attachment 2632

View attachment 2633

This straight in its defense business, you can also look at the borrowings from it;s power business which is supposed to be cash cow, half of the profits just go to pay interests.

this is all in reliance infra not, Comm, not nikon asset mgmt, not reliance capital. Just infrastructure.

Peanuts.

Reliance Defence to maintain USN's 7th Fleet ships

Their growth story is just starting.

 

[Bon Plan]

The 36 extra jets is pretty much assured as long as Modi comes back.



IN will never choose SH. They want a high performance fighter. The only way SH can win is if it is better and cheaper than Rafale, which we both know it is not.

Since the numbers is only 57, there's also the advantage of Indian production for Rafale, while SH will have to be imported fully. So even the political advantage is with Rafale since the MoD would prefer paying rupees with local production rather than import. Rafale also has the extra advantage of $2B in customization which the IAF has already paid for. There will be a number of other Rafale improvements also that the IAF will pay for, like Astra, Sudarshan, Nirbhay, Brahmos, AAW and ARM integration. So there is little to no chance for SH to compete.

Boeing in fact has to pay a lot just to bring SH to current Rafale standards, not gonna happen.

Too many advantages for Rafale.

The only problem for both jets is whether both carriers can operate either jet. But both jets will need the same modifications anyway.

I hope you're right !

 

[Milspec]

All I can say is wait and watch.

Arthaat, Berate HAL for what they have delivered, all the while singing praises of DRAL- which has nothing in pipeline. Sounds legit.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

French Family Makes Billions From 3D Wizardry
French Family Makes Billions From 3D Wizardry

 

[randomradio]

Arthaat, Berate HAL for what they have delivered, all the while singing praises of DRAL- which has nothing in pipeline. Sounds legit.

You are comparing HAL with Dassault?

I don't think you realise what DRAL is. You see it as Reliance with no experience, I see it as Dassault with significantly more experience than HAL.

You can literally consider DRAL as Dassault itself. It is literally Dassault creating a new production line for Rafale in India. This is not license production.

 

[Milspec]

It's a healthy company with similar assets and liabilities. Its revenue and profits have been growing every year.

is it?

The basic accounting equation states that assets = liabilities + stockholders' equity.
(Total Assets: Definition & Explanation - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com)


Total Liabilities= Total Asset - Total Equity
Total Liabilities = 57435.43-20995.14 = 36440.29 cr

So it's Liabilities are actually about 57% of it's assets.
Next debt to equity is 1.14 so it's debt is 23934.46 cr
That means almost 66% of its liability is debt. So almost all cash reserves is from debt and without debt it would barely function.

I am not sure if this is what defines a Healthy company, you might want to check out Pidlite.

 

[Milspec]

You are comparing HAL with Dassault?

I don't think you realise what DRAL is. You see it as Reliance with no experience, I see it as Dassault with significantly more experience than HAL.

No I am comparing HAL with supposed DRAL whose parent company is debt addicted entity.
I see DRAL as a 51% reliance Infra and 49% Dassult JV. what it is.

You can literally consider DRAL as Dassault itself. It is literally Dassault creating a new production line for Rafale in India. This is not license production.

If dassault was interested in 100% investment Modi Government wouldn't have stopped them. There is 100%FDI if there are any takers. On a lighter note Reliance Infra is so incompetent, that thier website still shows an image of F16 in their defense section instead of rafale.

 

[randomradio]

is it?
View attachment 2637



The basic accounting equation states that assets = liabilities + stockholders' equity.
(Total Assets: Definition & Explanation - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com)


Total Liabilities= Total Asset - Total Equity
Total Liabilities = 57435.43-20995.14 = 36440.29 cr

So it's Liabilities are actually about 57% of it's assets.
Next debt to equity is 1.14 so it's debt is 23934.46 cr
That means almost 66% of its liability is debt. So almost all cash reserves is from debt and without debt it would barely function.

I am not sure if this is what defines a Healthy company, you might want to check out Pidlite.

You think Dassault doesn't know all this?

No I am comparing HAL with supposed DRAL whose parent company is debt addicted entity.
I see DRAL as a 51% reliance Infra and 49% Dassult JV. what it is.

If dassault was interested in 100% investment Modi Government wouldn't have stopped them. There is 100%FDI if there are any takers. On a lighter note Reliance Infra is so incompetent, that thier website still shows an image of F16 in their defense section instead of rafale.
View attachment 2638

Modi didn't allow 100% FDI for Dassault. Their highest option was 49% and they took it.

 

[Milspec]

You think Dassault doesn't know all this?

I thought you said liabilities = asset was a good thing? if assets equal liabilities, where would be the equity?

Also you seemed to suggest reliance infra is pretty sound, With it's debt totaling upto 23934.46 cr, throw into the equation another 10606cr of Rnval liabilities out of which with 8755cr of debt, the picture actually looks pretty grimm. How much of investment has DRAL committed to these alleged 36 "actual production". Their last balance sheet show's "Zero" capital infusion.

 

[randomradio]

I thought you said liabilities = asset was a good thing? if assets equal liabilities, where would be the equity?

It depends on where their liabilities were focused on.

Also you seemed to suggest reliance infra is pretty sound, With it's debt totaling upto 23934.46 cr, throw into the equation another 10606cr of Rnval liabilities out of which with 8755cr of debt, the picture actually looks pretty grimm. How much of investment has DRAL committed to these alleged 36 "actual production". Their last balance sheet show's "Zero" capital infusion.

You do realise that just an order of 36 Rafales from Indian lines will make their debt irrelevant. Add to that 57 from IN, then 110 from IAF.

You are hung up on small numbers. Wait for the current offsets alone to show up on their balance sheets first.

 

[Milspec]

It depends on where their liabilities were focused on.



You do realise that just an order of 36 Rafales from Indian lines will make their debt irrelevant. Add to that 57 from IN, then 110 from IAF.

You are hung up on small numbers. Wait for the current offsets alone to show up on their balance sheets first.

What you do not realize is for it needs money to setup the manufacturing facility and then pay salaries to build those aircraft's, given the cash reserves currently fueled with . With one single political upset on any allegations of wrong doing they will be stuck with quadruple debt of current levels, no deliverable and eventually to NCLT giving the biggest blow to defense FDI.

I have my suspicions on Dassult JV with Reliance instead of an entity with proven business acumen (Not even HAL - which is almost debt free and has been manufacturing aircrafts all it's life). Hopefully I am proven wrong.

 

[randomradio]

What you do not realize is for it needs money to setup the manufacturing facility and then pay salaries to build those aircraft's, given the cash reserves currently fueled with . With one single political upset on any allegations of wrong doing they will be stuck with quadruple debt of current levels, no deliverable and eventually to NCLT giving the biggest blow to defense FDI.

I have my suspicions on Dassult JV with Reliance instead of an entity with proven business acumen (Not even HAL - which is almost debt free and has been manufacturing aircrafts all it's life). Hopefully I am proven wrong.

You are too hung up on technicalities. Neither Dassault nor the US Navy would have signed up with Reliance if they were not up for it.

Dassault in fact was supposed to team up with Mukesh Ambani during MMRCA and instead switched to Anil for the GTG. So obviously something's up ever since they scrapped their non-compete agreement.

 

[Milspec]

You are too hung up on technicalities. Neither Dassault nor the US Navy would have signed up with Reliance if they were not up for it.

Dassault in fact was supposed to team up with Mukesh Ambani during MMRCA and instead switched to Anil for the GTG. So obviously something's up ever since they scrapped their non-compete agreement.

US navy just doesn't have one single maintenance dock.

Given that dassault did not team up with Mukesh Ambani who has solid track record of delivering business results and backtracked with HAL after scouting locations and assuring almost work on completing an Indian contract for the Rafale fighter jet is taking time, but the deal to purchase 126 Rafales is now “95% completed" and then backtracking within two weeks. It raises more suspicions.

 

[randomradio]

US navy just doesn't have one single maintenance dock.

That's irrelevant. The fact is Reliance beat out L&T. That's a big deal already.

Given that dassault did not team up with Mukesh Ambani who has solid track record of delivering business results and backtracked with HAL after scouting locations and assuring almost work on completing an Indian contract for the Rafale fighter jet is taking time, but the deal to purchase 126 Rafales is now “95% completed" and then backtracking within two weeks. It raises more suspicions.

Dassault was working with HAL out of compulsion, not out of choice. GoI cancelled MMRCA. Nothing suspicious there.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Boeing Sees Two-Year Wait For World’s Biggest Fighter Jet Deal

Jason Koutsoukis 4 June 2018, 7:24 AM4 June 2018, 6:47 AM

(Bloomberg) -- It could be another two years before India picks the winner of the world’s biggest combat aircraft order, according to a senior Boeing Co. executive.

Boeing is well placed in the race to supply the Indian Air Force with 110 fighter jets, Gene Cunningham, Boeing vice president of global defense sales, told Bloomberg News on Sunday on the sidelines of a security forum in Singapore. The company is a finalist in a separate competition to supply the Indian navy with 57 fighter jets.

“We have gotten to know Indian industry, understand the Indian process,” Cunningham said.

The tender for 110 combat aircraft mandates building at least 85 percent of the order locally. The deal is likely to be at least $15 billion.

Boeing said in April that it would partner with state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and Mahindra Defense Systems Ltd. to manufacture the F/A-18 Super Hornet in India at a new facility, which can also be used for other requirements. Other companies in the running include Lockheed Martin Corp., Saab AB and BAE Systems Plc.

“We’ll throw our hat into the ring,” Alan Garwood, BAE’s director for group business development, said in an interview on Sunday. “We’ve seen the requirement and we’ve said we’ll put some sort of tender in.”

The British defense and aerospace company makes the twin-engine Eurofighter Typhoon jet.

Garwood said BAE had been making aircraft in India for 70 years, a key advantage given Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s requirement that the new jets be made in India.

“We have good relationships with industry and government there,” Garwood said.

Getting new aircraft is crucial for Modi as the South Asian nation faces increased risks from neighboring Pakistan and China at a time when the Russian MiG fighters -- India’s mainstay -- are being phased out. The defense industry is a key part of Modi’s “Make in India” policy, which aims to promote domestic manufacturing.

Canceled Order
After scrapping an order with Dassault Aviation for 126 Rafale jets worth $11 billion in 2015, a process that took nearly a decade, Modi’s administration bought 36 jets separately to speed up the process. Under the new tender, the winner will have to deliver the first jet within three years of securing the contract.

India had previously said that it was looking to replace its current fleet of combat aircraft with a single-engine jet, but subsequently announced that it would also consider twin-engine aircraft such as Boeing’s twin-engine F/A-18 Super Hornet.

Boeing’s Cunningham said the change in direction meant that the timing of the Indian Air Force process was now about 12 months later than the Indian Navy.

“Certainly today, the Indian Navy timeline will conclude sooner than the Indian Air Force,” Cunningham said. “They would appear to us to be sequential, but I’m not assuming that they’re related.”

(Updates with BAE executive in sixth paragraph.)

Boeing Sees Two-Year Wait For World’s Biggest Fighter Jet Deal

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Other companies in the running include Lockheed Martin Corp., Saab AB and BAE Systems Plc.

 

[zinswinsin]

Qatar wants to join NATO

behold, the master plan of qatar buying f-15's rafales and typhoons.

 

[randomradio]

Qatar wants to join NATO

behold, the master plan of qatar buying f-15's rafales and typhoons.

Haha. "Let us into NATO or we will start buying Russian gear". That will be a nice threat.

But it's obvious there's no chance of that happening. NATO is for Europe only.