MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
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Can you elaborate on the cooling system. What type of cooling, positive disp device based cooling or some type free cooling type setup using pumps and intake air, water/ glycol type mix fluid, Heat exchange areas, HEx type (PBHE/PFHE/Tube and fin- Cu/al), if possible.
As ever, when it'as about a french affair, you are missinformed.
Mirage 2000 were used to cover the two AWACS and the tankers.
Rafale can carry 4 MICA. More than enough to protect itself.
"And 3 times the cost of maintenance of Rafale".
Since when did HAL started offering Su-30 ?
IAf should go for extra MKIs only if it is urgent for them to maintain 32 squadron operational, otherwise no superiority fighter for now.
Do give me the link which shows that cost of operating and maintaining Su-30 MKI is thrice that of Rafale.
I am very keen to see it.
I am very keen to see it.
"And 3 times the cost of maintenance of Rafale".
Since when did HAL started offering Su-30 ?
IAf should go for extra MKIs only if it is urgent for them to maintain 32 squadron operational, otherwise no superiority fighter for now.
When the French say that 2 Rafales can carry load equivalent to 5 Mirage 2000. Also that Rafales are "OMNI ROLE" it would make more common sense that the French Air force use 2 Rafales instead of 5 Mirage 2000 (just the ratio) unless the French are just lying through theit teeth about the actual cost of operating Rafales and Mirage 2000. Then only it makes sense that the French are using Mirage 2000 for operational reason (they are very cheap to fly than Rafale which is much more expensive to operate and maintain)
As ever, when it'as about a french affair, you are missinformed.
Mirage 2000 were used to cover the two AWACS and the tankers.
Rafale can carry 4 MICA. More than enough to protect itself.
We will still rely on Mirage 2000-5 for 10 years. Why not use it? These pilots have also an interest to be trained in hot mission.
IAF has 250+ MKI but continue to use tired Mig21 and Mig 27..... same for all the air forces around the world (see Israel : despite brand new F35 they use F16 and F15 for combat mission).
Understand this time ?
The question will MoD bite. Combined with Honeywell engine project, this time by HAL, and if the 40 MKI's materialize, the new share holders might see some green here. @randomradio
The MKIs in the IAF are at overcapacity. The IAF has no need for more than 230 jets. They bought 42 more out of desperation because there was no movement on the LCA and Rafale front. They will be fine even if 40 MKIs crash over the next 10 years, let alone add 40 more to the fleet. The IAF doesn't want more.
It takes 3 years to produce the jet. What HAL is proposing is they will import 40 CKDs and then assemble it. This assembly time is 2 months. So this is not HAL talking, it's RBE talking. The Russians want to sell more MKIs that's basically produced in Russia. Out of the 272 MKIs we purchased, only 60 were produced by HAL, the rest were either flyaway or kits from Russia. Obviously, there is no benefit to this arrangement from the industrial perspective either.
Also, HAL wants IAF to buy 40 MKIs because they don't want DRAL to start production of the Rafales in India with the second tranche of 36 that IAF will order next year (by 2020).
Dassault plans to produce 2 Rafales in India using their own funds (along with Reliance of course) in order to train the Indian workforce in manufacturing the jet. And this is not kits assembly. They want to develop their facilities here to the point where the entire jet can be built from scratch in India. Dassault hopes to get the IAF's order of 36 and IN's order of 57 and set up a full production line for 93+2 jets. Those 2 jets will also be used as prototypes for future development. During MMRCA, Dassault and Snecma were willing to transfer 100% of their technology to produce 100% of the airframe and engine in India. So you can expect them to aim for the same with DRAL.
Do you see why HAL is threatened? They are actually pushing for a direct production deal for Mig-35s.
40 more MKIs is extremely unlikely. Also, the IAF is not so desperate today that they will buy more MKIs without AESA radar and other advanced technologies, which will jack up the prices to match the Rafale's anyway.
As for HAL, they are fine with what they have right now. 123 LCAs already. 201 MCAs will be coming up next. So they will have an order book for advanced jets for the next 20 years. And FGFA is very likely still active. HAL will likely absorb the Ghatak also. Let's not forget the ongoing M-2000 and Jaguar upgrade programs and the very expensive Super MKI program that will follow. HAL has enough on their plate. Anything else is just pushing for a monopoly.
1. You don't always need the equivalent of five Mirages.
2. The French air force does not have as many Rafales as they'd like to. It's a relatively small air force but it's tasked with sustained operations in the Levant (Syria and Iraq against Daesh) and the Sahel (from Mauritania to Chad) without stopping their contributions to NATO missions (like patrolling the Baltic skies for Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania which do not have air forces of their own) and international exercises, and of course maintaining 24/7 deterrence posture. So the older Mirages are still used, because they're there and the French air force cannot afford to spurn parts of its inventory.
The Mirage is slightly cheaper to operate, but not that much. Only about 16% cheaper per flying hour. Now if you take into account the single engine's higher attrition rate (if the engine fails, the plane is lost) and various other issues, on the whole, the Rafale isn't more expensive than the Mirage. Also keep in mind that as time passes, maintenance for the older aircraft progressively becomes more expensive, as the fleet becomes older, the parts become harder to procure, and the maintenance technicians with the most experience with the type retire.
HAL is not threatened, not by Anil Ambani's aviation genius nor by DA's business acumen (would have turned it around but would be a low blow for Anil). It's doing it's bit, after MKI's production run finishes, Nashik Plant will have capacity and from years of running MKI line, its good for both top and bottom line on the balance sheet for HAL. It's just doing it's due diligence. It has a proven cost effective product, and it is offering it. Given MoD's competency, its most likely to bite.
The Nashik plant will not assemble the CKDs. The CKDs are assembled in an air force hangar.
Is it, where were Mig27CKD assembled? Pune BRD? This CKD non-sense is a mis-quoted, Raju meant HAL Nashik built 40 MKI's at a rate of 12-16 ac's/yr. As far as your BRD hangars are concerned, they wouldn't be able to assemble a Ikea chair if it was left to them.
You are confusing full assembly and CKD assembly. Full assembly process lasts 11 months and you need Nashik for it, CKD lasts only 2 months. CKD and full assembly have progressed in parallel for many years. The IAF's orders of 40 jets followed by 42 happened in parallel to HAL's production. Russia produced those 82 jets and HAL assembled the 82 kits in an IAF owned facility.
And no, no one has been misquoted. The Nashik plant has done its job. It will sit useless after March 2020 even if 40 more are ordered.
Which facility did IAF assemble MKI's in please please tell me. I was at the location still a kid in school when the first antanovs unloaded the MKI fuesealage and wings in Nashik and we went to the compound wall to see the large plane.
Which IAF location exactly assembled MKI's?
And Who the F is going to certify airworthy-ness of IAF assembled aircraft?
Meh, how else do you think HAL delivered as many as 28 MKIs every year from 2009 to 2015? One set came from HAL, the other set came from another facility that assembled the Russian supplied CKDs from 2009 to 2015.
Rs 15,000 crore Sukhoi deal cleared - Times of India ►
HAL has been steadily stepping up its Sukhoi-30 MKI delivery schedules. While last year it delivered 23 of these fighters, this year it is expected to produce 28.
Magic?
Please tell me which facility are Russian CKD's assembled by IAF?
If HAL delivered 23 MKI's they came out of HAL Nashik. Your chinese adversaries are what poised to build 200 j20's in a year, and HAL cant build 23?
There is not other location with Fuselage rotary bed, or a hairpin bender, or an orbital riveter to assemble an MKI. There are not other technicians other than nashik or irkut who would be able to route the harnesses, all engines for MKI are built in Koraput. As I said your IAF BRD technicians wont be able to put together an ikea set.
All I know is it was assembled at an IAF base which is also shared by HAL. It's not difficult to assemble from CKD.
Even if we assume the CKDs came out of Nashik, they wouldn't be using the actual production line.
You don't need a full assembly line to assemble the kits, all you need is a crane and other equipment to lift heavy loads and some men to put it all the fuselage pieces together.
Please share a reference that corroborates the above, I am not aware of any of HAL Nashik technicians, engineers or managers operating out of any other IAF site.
No need to assume nonsense in the first place.
Let me ask you, do you have the faintest idea of what goes into assembling a CKD fighter aircraft ?
This is AJT CKD's being assembled:
If you think a few men and a few cranes are enough to assemble CKD's Anil ambani wouldn't be shitting bricks right now.
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