MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Hydra]

F-15EX is a great plane, no doubt! However, as I see it, there are few problems:

1. Weight: It's a heavy-weight 30 tonnes+(MTOW) fighter in MKI class. Induction of such jets in 114 numbers would mean that IAF would be too top-heavy and it would be costly in terms of both CAPEX & OPEX.

2. Age: Accept it that its basic design is even older than our MKI.

3. RCS: Rafale/Typhoon/Gripen/SH all are RO/LO planes. F-15 EX not so much even with RAM(which I doubt US will share with us).

4. American dictate: With every US weapon, we shall need their permission to use. The Euro platforms have no such bondage.


Rest it is a good plane

1)it's having a pair of powerful engines to mitigate that. And its wise to decommission earlier examples of MKI than upgrading to super sukhois and that void can be filled with extra F15EX if it selected in mmrca.
2)Aged,yeas but not obsolete and is highly relevant just like any other true 4.5 gen aircraft. I won't call an aircraft without aesa radar a 4.5 gen (su35,mig 35 & existing EFT is out).
3)RCS of any gen4.5 is not matters as long as it is not facing a true stealth aircraft. This is what Harshvardhan told in an old tweet. For J20 both Rafale & F15 EX are similar. If the advertised active cancellation works as it was told by Boeing & Dassault then both will give a bloody nose to J20 . If it just a marketing gimmick ( I beleive it won't,west is not Russia and their weapons are not crap like Russian made) ,then it will be a Turkey shoot.

4) we already using p8I,Apache, C130,M 777. And gonna use stryker as a compromise for Biho sam systems. Also FYI,USA didn't stop Pakistan using f16 on us even though it was intended to use only for anti terrorism purpose.

Lastly F15 EX can carry 13+ tonnes, 3 tonnes more than what MKI can. If true,these extra capacity will make F15 EX to carry meaningful ordinance to Tibet. Aan icing on top, the superior US AAM,EW pods,Decoys,Air to surface ordinance, may be long range cruise missile can be obtained from USA. Even we can get access to US reserve weapons during war too.

I too favour Rafale over F15EX,not because later is dull because we already operating 36 rafales with IAF. So if no Rafale, it should be EX.

4. American dictate: With every US weapon, we shall need their permission to use. The Euro platforms have no such bondage.


Rest it is a good plane

Forgot,we have Germany in EFT program to do more mischievous things than uncle sam can do.

 

[Rajput Lion]

1)it's having a pair of powerful engines to mitigate that. And its wise to decommission earlier examples of MKI than upgrading to super sukhois and that void can be filled with extra F15EX if it selected in mmrca.
2)Aged,yeas but not obsolete and is highly relevant just like any other true 4.5 gen aircraft. I won't call an aircraft without aesa radar a 4.5 gen (su35,mig 35 & existing EFT is out).
3)RCS of any gen4.5 is not matters as long as it is not facing a true stealth aircraft. This is what Harshvardhan told in an old tweet. For J20 both Rafale & F15 EX are similar. If the advertised active cancellation works as it was told by Boeing & Dassault then both will give a bloody nose to J20 . If it just a marketing gimmick ( I beleive it won't,west is not Russia and their weapons are not crap like Russian made) ,then it will be a Turkey shoot.

4) we already using p8I,Apache, C130,M 777. And gonna use stryker as a compromise for Biho sam systems. Also FYI,USA didn't stop Pakistan using f16 on us even though it was intended to use only for anti terrorism purpose.

Lastly F15 EX can carry 13+ tonnes, 3 tonnes more than what MKI can. If true,these extra capacity will make F15 EX to carry meaningful ordinance to Tibet. Aan icing on top, the superior US AAM,EW pods,Decoys,Air to surface ordinance, may be long range cruise missile can be obtained from USA. Even we can get access to US reserve weapons during war too.

You see what I was talking about! MRFA was never going to be about MKI replacement but a western platform that is smaller than it. Eagle is just western analogue of MKI. That's it.

I too favour Rafale over F15EX,not because later is dull because we already operating 36 rafales with IAF. So if no Rafale, it should be EX.

Forgot,we have Germany in EFT program to do more mischievous things than uncle sam can do.

Rafale is definitely the best bet. If we get high TOT then Typhoon is also not bad even with Germany as a major EF Consortium member.

 

[Hydra]

You see what I was talking about! MRFA was never going to be about MKI replacement but a western platform that is smaller than it. Eagle is just western analogue of MKI. That's it.

Never said that F15 EX a mki replacement. What I am telling is if F15 is selected via mmrca, then we can think about retiring old airframe of few MKI and can be filled with additional F15EX outside mmrca2 umbrella of 114.

 

[Hydra]

Rafale is definitely the best bet. If we get high TOT then Typhoon is also not bad even with Germany as a major EF Consortium member.

Yeas,rafale is the best Bet,if not Rafale it should be F15 EX. Because it's single manufacturer, immense array of US weapons & inter operability with US. Means in the event of war we will be getting seamless data from US airborne sensors.
EFT is made by a Consortium and it lacks much needed air to ground weaponry . I will even rate LCA MK1a above current EFT when comes to air to ground role if you are OK with the low range.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Never said that F15 EX a mki replacement. What I am telling is if F15 is selected via mmrca, then we can think about retiring old airframe of few MKI and can be filled with additional F15EX outside mmrca2 umbrella of 114.

But if we buy 114 F-15EXs that would mean another heavy-weight jet in MKI class. There was a reason earlier this tender was called MMRCA aka medium weight multi role fighter.

And don't think we are going to phase out even the initial MKIs soon as its airframe life is very good and thanks to improvements made by MIDHANI its weak link aka AL-31FP's TBO and service life will/has improve too.


So it comes down to Rafale vs Typhoon vs Gripen-E. But since we're developing LCA MK2 so it cancels Gripen-E, which means it's between the old rivals Rafale vs Typhoon. Last time Rafale was selected as L1. This time around if EF consortium can offer better price and shows better compliance with GOI's latest rules then it has got very good chance of winning MRFA tender, IMO.

I favour Rafale as it's a game-changing bird, but all bets are off now if the news regarding GOI setting new rules are true

 

[Rajput Lion]

Yeas,rafale is the best Bet,if not Rafale it should be F15 EX. Because it's single manufacturer, immense array of US weapons & inter operability with US. Means in the event of war we will be getting seamless data from US airborne sensors.
EFT is made by a Consortium and it lacks much needed air to ground weaponry . I will even rate LCA MK1a above current EFT when comes to air to ground role if you are OK with the low range.

Typhoon has got very good array of air to ground weaponry like Storm Shadow, Paveway etc. Plus if we get radar TOT then we can integrate any weapons we may like. So it's not a big problem.

In terms of kinematics, Typhoon is only second to Raptor and armed with Meteor it will eat F-15EX alive in BVR. Even in dogfight with guns or IR missiles, it's superior to F-15EX.

Yes, F-15EX can carry more payload but then it's a heavy-weight so that's given.

@BMD what's your take on Typhoon vs F-15EX for IAF?

 

[marich01]

But if we buy 114 F-15EXs that would mean another heavy-weight jet in MKI class. There was a reason earlier this tender was called MMRCA aka medium weight multi role fighter.

oh I wonder if the russians will ever make a medium weight class twin engine jet akin to rafale type or remain miffed in making single engine su75 type to chase their usual markets with promise of lower cost as competition to F-35 ?
Kinda weird that they are so averse to making medium multirole fighters, perhaps due to less sophisticated engine program the reason?

 

[Rajput Lion]

oh I wonder if the russians will ever make a medium weight class twin engine jet akin to rafale type or remain miffed in making single engine su75 type to chase their usual markets with promise of lower cost as competition to F-35 ?
Kinda weird that they are so averse to making medium multirole fighters, perhaps due to less sophisticated engine program the reason?

RuAF prefers their twin-engined heavy-weights so that's no surprise actually. Look how their current medium weight fighter aka Mig-35 hasn't got any orders from VKS(only 6 jets).

Su-75 will get Al-51F1 engines. Here they are chasing the F-35 formula.

 

[Bon Plan]

Going for the typhoon mk2 radar should be the better deal.

this radar is brand new, but as for now with nearly no software. Maybe only basic air to air mode.
In 1O years it will be mature. And will face the latest RBE2 XG radar....

 

[Rajput Lion]

this radar is brand new, but as for now with nearly no software. Maybe only basic air to air mode.
In 1O years it will be mature. And will face the latest RBE2 XG radar....

Even if they offer GaAs AESA radar and except all our conditions then maybe Typhoon could emerge as the new MRFA winner.

Just hope Dassault is aware of the games being played and is upto it!

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Even if they offer GaAs AESA radar and except all our conditions then maybe Typhoon could emerge as the new MRFA winner.

Just hope Dassault is aware of the games being played and is upto it!

It is important to understand that Dassault does not seek to sell military aircraft for export, the most emblematic case being that of Belgium, where Dassault did not want to go ahead, whereas the French government ended up responding almost single-handedly, but inevitably outside the box. The reason why Dassault does not seek export sales is relative to its economic interest. Military programmes cannot be loss-making, but profits are limited to 7/93, i.e. just over 7%, whereas profits in the civilian sector are around 15%. In addition, military programmes mobilise the scarcest resources in terms of skills, which is to the detriment of the civilian sector, but there is still an advantage in that the research is paid for and is very often useful for both the military and the civilian sector. So what's interesting is a military programme with a lot of research and little production. For the State, what counts is that the activity brings in a lot of taxes and induced and secondary activity, which is improved when production is high, which is facilitated if there are exports, so the State wants Dassault to sell for export. This is one of the reasons why G-to-G contracts are more likely to succeed than calls for tender.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Rafale’s India operations get a strategic push; Dassault establishes maintenance facility near Jewar Airport

Synopsis

Dassault Aviation is advancing plans to establish a Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) facility near Jewar International Airport for India’s Mirage 2000 and Rafale fighters. This move supports India's aspiration to locally manufacture the latest Rafale versions under the "Make in India" initiative. Engine maker Safran SA also intends to set up an MRO facility for Rafale engines in Hyderabad, aiming for operations by 2025 and potential local production of M-88 engines. These developments are crucial as India seeks to bolster its defense capabilities amidst regional security challenges, including from China's expanding military presence.

Dassault Aviation is in the process of acquiring land near Jewar International Airport to set up a Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) facility for India’s Mirage 2000 and Rafale fighters as told to Hindustan Times. This step will pave the way for local manufacturing of the latest Rafale versions to fulfill the IAF's long-term requirement of approximately 100 twin-engine multi-role fighters over the next two decades, according to sources familiar with the matter.

"Make in India" Initiative with Local Production​

Despite the political changes in France, the Emmanuel Macron government and Dassault Aviation have committed to manufacturing Rafale fighters in India under the "Make in India" initiative. This includes using locally sourced components to meet the IAF's demand. Additionally, engine maker Safran SA is planning an MRO facility for Rafale engines in Hyderabad, expected to be operational by 2025. Safran has also indicated readiness to manufacture M-88 engines in India if there is a substantial order from the IAF.

Strategic Needs and Benefits for India

With HAL's LCA Mark II, which will replace the Mirage 2000, not expected to be ready until the middle of the next decade, Rafale fighters will address India's immediate needs and potentially allow for exports. Dassault has started sourcing titanium parts from Indian companies and plans to expand its local supply chain. This manufacturing move is seen as a win-win for both nations, given Dassault's backlog of approximately 300 fighter orders from countries like Croatia, Greece, Serbia, Egypt, Qatar, UAE, and Indonesia.

Government's New Procurement Policy​

The Indian government has shifted its defense procurement policy to acquire 114 Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) only from vendors willing to establish manufacturing units in India, including technology transfer and full production in collaboration with local partners. This policy shift, while expected to delay the MRFA acquisition, is aimed at strengthening India's defense manufacturing capabilities.

Global Competition for Indian Defense Contracts​

The MRFA deal, valued at approximately $20 billion, is one of the world's largest defense contracts. Competitors include Dassault’s Rafale, Boeing’s Super Hornet F/A-18, SAAB’s Gripen, Lockheed Martin’s F-21, Russian MiG-35, and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Existing Infrastructure and Future Plans​

India's Air Force currently operates 36 Rafale fighters equipped with Hammer and SCALP missiles, and the Navy is negotiating the price for 26 Maritime Strike Rafales for the INS Vikrant aircraft carrier. India already has maintenance depots, repair facilities, and training simulators for Rafales at the Ambala air base.

The Modi government values France's stable licensing policy, which reassures long-term commitments similar to Russia's historical aircraft supplies to India since 1953. Safran is also prepared to enter a joint venture with an Indian company to manufacture engines for Indian Multi-Role Helicopters (IMRH), reducing dependency on third countries.

With increasing aggression from China, equipped with its fifth-generation J-20 fighters and expanding force levels, India needs to bolster its Air Force. “India can ill afford to further delay the acquisition of advanced multi-role fighters as the Chinese challenge will increase by the day,” said a national security planner in the HT report.

Boost from GE Aerospace Collaboration​

The Indian government has been encouraged by its success in getting US company GE Aerospace Defence and Systems to produce fighter jet engines in India in collaboration with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). According to a deal signed during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s recent visit to the US, GE will transfer 80% of the technology for its F414 jet engines, which will power the Mk2 version of India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

Increased FDI in Defense Sector​

To further boost its defense manufacturing capabilities, the Indian government has increased the Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) sectoral limit in defense to 74%. This move aims to attract more foreign investments and make India a hub for defense manufacturing.

India's strategic decision to bolster its defense capabilities through local manufacturing of Rafale fighters aligns with its "Make in India" initiative. This move not only meets the IAF's long-term needs but also positions India as a potential exporter of advanced fighters, enhancing its strategic and economic standing globally.

 

[jk007]

It is important to understand that Dassault does not seek to sell military aircraft for export, the most emblematic case being that of Belgium, where Dassault did not want to go ahead, whereas the French government ended up responding almost single-handedly, but inevitably outside the box. The reason why Dassault does not seek export sales is relative to its economic interest. Military programmes cannot be loss-making, but profits are limited to 7/93, i.e. just over 7%, whereas profits in the civilian sector are around 15%. In addition, military programmes mobilise the scarcest resources in terms of skills, which is to the detriment of the civilian sector, but there is still an advantage in that the research is paid for and is very often useful for both the military and the civilian sector. So what's interesting is a military programme with a lot of research and little production. For the State, what counts is that the activity brings in a lot of taxes and induced and secondary activity, which is improved when production is high, which is facilitated if there are exports, so the State wants Dassault to sell for export. This is one of the reasons why G-to-G contracts are more likely to succeed than calls for tender.

@pic sometime back, you mentioned that 1 rafale = 4 mirage 2000s in terms of availability & capability.

A) India is planning to buy 12 used mirages from Qatar at steep price. From your opinion, does it make sense to buy 12 Qatari mirages or 3 rafales (or let's say 6 rafales instead of 12 mirages)?
B) Also- why is qatar selling their MICA missiles with mirage-2000s?.can't those MICAs be used with their newer rafales?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

@pic sometime back, you mentioned that 1 rafale = 4 mirage 2000s in terms of availability & capability.

A) India is planning to buy 12 used mirages from Qatar at steep price. From your opinion, does it make sense to buy 12 Qatari mirages or 3 rafales (or let's say 6 rafales instead of 12 mirages)?
B) Also- why is qatar selling their MICA missiles with mirage-2000s?.can't those MICAs be used with their newer rafales?

I didn't say 1 Rafale = 4 Mirage I quoted a French serviceman who explained that certain missions could be carried out with 2 Rafales, but if you wanted to do them with Mirages, you'd have to take 6 Mirages: 3 Mirages to carry the same number of bombs as the two Rafales and three other Mirages to protect those carrying the bombs, whereas the Rafales can defend themselves on their own. In this case, 1 Rafale = 3 Mirage. But sometimes 1 Rafale is overkill, as in the case of operations that France used to carry out in Africa, or for air policing, so the Mirage can be justified if it is given this type of mission to carry out.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Going for the typhoon mk2 radar should be the better deal.

The RBE2 XG can be offered as a standard radar option on new Rafales, providing increased range, improved resolution and better integration of electronic warfare than the competition.

For recent aircraft, including all export aircraft, which have been pre-wired to incorporate the RBE2 XG, we can offer an upgrade that enables them to benefit from the new radar's capabilities without the need for major modifications. These aircraft will require fewer structural modifications to integrate the new radar, making the upgrade more efficient in terms of cost and time. On these aircraft, the RBE2 XG can be integrated with less complexity, minimising operational risks and implementation costs compared with a complete overhaul for older systems. A phased upgrade, maximising aircraft capability while minimising disruption, will be possible.

The RBE2 XG's Multifunction Antennas allow radar, electronic warfare and communication functions to be combined, providing superior situational awareness and integrated electronic jamming capabilities. Multifunctionality reduces the need for multiple separate systems, which can simplify integration and improve stealth by reducing the radar signature.

The RBE2 XG is a modern solution that is adaptable to future threats, unlike competing solutions that may have limitations in terms of future upgrades. Its superior detection and jamming capabilities offer a significant tactical advantage. With advanced data fusion, the RBE2 XG improves situational awareness for the pilot, increasing combat effectiveness.

The modularity of the RBE2 XG allows for easier future upgrades, ensuring that the Rafale remains at the forefront of technological capabilities in the face of evolving threats.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Even so, I'm 76 today, and the IAF could buy 114 Rafales to celebrate!

 

[Hydra]

Even so, I'm 76 today, and the IAF could buy 114 Rafales to celebrate!

Still believing that IAF will get mrfa aircraft?

 

[A Person]

I don't think India will buy new aircraft. Politicians will act as if there hasn't been a lot of inflation in the last four years and will pretend to be shocked at how expensive fighter jets are compared to back in 2016. That'll kill any possibility of a deal.

 

[Sathya]

Even so, I'm 76 today, and the IAF could buy 114 Rafales to celebrate!

Happy birthday to u Sir

I don't think India will buy new aircraft. Politicians will act as if there hasn't been a lot of inflation in the last four years and will pretend to be shocked at how expensive fighter jets are compared to back in 2016. That'll kill any possibility of a deal.

People work for the deal and against it also..

We ll have to follow only..

Nothing new is happening.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Still believing that IAF will get mrfa aircraft?

you get an F-35 class aircraft for the price of an F-18.

Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

Price negotiation to start soon India & France to begin negotiation for Indian Nayv's acquisition of 26 fighter jets worth Rs 50,000 crore. High-level French delegation to meet with Indian Defence Ministry this week.

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