MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
- Start date
Happy birth day Richard.
Today is my party : Saint FrƩdƩric.
The main fixed costs have already been paid :
For IAF the 2 air bases can accomodate 36 more birds without heavy modifications (maybe some shields).
The specific developpments are made (low band jammer, high and cold engine start, helmet....)
For IN maybe a base accomodation...
So a new tender will be less costly (except inflation).
Happy 76th sir, thanks for all the great posts and knowledge sharing over the years. My best wishes!
Happy birthday Buddy. Wish you many more such birthdays.
@Picdelamirand-oil hope a good news will bring to both India & France/Dassault on your next birthday. Belated birthday wishes though.
Thank you @Hydra.
In terms of good news I hope that soon there will be the announcement of the signature of the 26 Rafales for your Navy, and finally your Navy may buy more Rafales than the IAF, because it's particularly hard to make an embarked aircraft with the performance of the Rafale.
I was hoping for the original 126+63 for IAF & 57 for IN. The recent terror attack & subsequent indian inaction shows we lacks on many areas.
This would require India to produce 3 Rafales a month until 2036... Not to mention possible exports in subsequent years, or even for France if we focus on drone production for the SCAF.
US Pushes āF-22, F-35 Fusionā To Indian Air Force Under Make In India; Lockheed Boss Meets PM Modi
Lockheed Martin CEO Jim Taiclet met Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on July 18. The discussions were about localization in the Indian defense industry. Lockheed Martin has made big-ticket offers on the F-21 fighter jet, Sikorsky naval utility helicopter, and shoulder-fired anti-armor weapon...
www.eurasiantimes.com
Its time to block clickbait generator eurasiantimes.US Pushes āF-22, F-35 Fusionā To Indian Air Force Under Make In India; Lockheed Boss Meets PM Modi
Lockheed Martin CEO Jim Taiclet met Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on July 18. The discussions were about localization in the Indian defense industry. Lockheed Martin has made big-ticket offers on the F-21 fighter jet, Sikorsky naval utility helicopter, and shoulder-fired anti-armor weapon...
Dassault Aviation prend lāinitiative pour vendre 114 Rafale construits en Inde
Dassault Aviation takes initiative to sell 114 Indian-built Rafales
Fabrice Wolf 3 August 2024
In 2012, Dassault Aviation won the Indian MRCA competition for 118 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force, around 100 of which were to be assembled in India. However, negotiations with HAL came to nothing, as the Indian aircraft manufacturer's industrial capabilities could not guarantee the level of quality demanded by the Indian armed forces, according to the French group.
In 2015, following the abandonment of the MRCA programme, New Delhi ordered 36 Rafale fighters from Dassault, to be assembled in France, but accompanied by a broad package of commitments on the part of French manufacturers to invest 50% of the ā¬8bn contract value in industrial capacity deployed in India.
It is against this backdrop that the Indian press has just revealed that Dassault has taken steps to build a very large operational maintenance site in the country, designed to provide Maintenance in Operational Condition (MCO) for the Mirage 2000 and Rafale aircraft in service with the Indian Air Force and, soon, the Indian Navy.
However, this investment will also give the French aircraft manufacturer, and the Rafale team as a whole, a major advantage in the MRCA 2 programme, which will replace the first MRCA and enable New Delhi to build 114 medium fighter aircraft locally to modernise the country's fighter fleet.
Indeed, the website hindustan-times.com has revealed that Dassault Aviation has taken steps to acquire a large area of land near the site of the new Noida International Airport, near the northern city of Jewar.
According to the Indian website, the French aircraft manufacturer intends to build a very large industrial site on this site, designed to ensure the operational maintenance of the Rafale and Mirage 2000 in service with the Indian Air Force, and certainly the Rafale M and B soon to be acquired by the Indian Navy.
This investment, which involves Dassault Aviation as well as other manufacturers in the Rafale team, is in line with the offset commitments made when the 36 Indian Rafales were ordered in 2015.
In addition to the industrial site to be built, the French manufacturer and its partners are now involved in organising the Indian supply chain, in order to comply with Make in India requirements, but also to avoid unpleasant surprises such as those encountered in 2012 with HAL. It would even appear that Dassault has begun to prepare its Titanium supply chain, in anticipation of a shift in Indian demand towards the manufacture of fighter jets at this site.
Moreover, according to information obtained by Indian journalists, it would appear that the site to be built will be designed to handle the maintenance of more than a hundred Rafales, i.e. far more than the fleet planned on the basis of current orders.
The Indian press is anticipating that this major industrial site, and the Supply Chain currently being deployed by Dassault and the Rafale Team, will provide an efficient, well-oiled tool for assembling the 114 combat aircraft under the MRCA 2 contract, giving the French fighter a decisive advantage in this competition.
In addition to the industrial and technological stakes involved in this contract, which could be worth up to $20 billion and represent the largest defence import contract ever awarded by New Delhi, production lead times are currently proving to be a decisive factor for the Indian Air Force.
The Indian air force is currently facing rising international and regional tensions, not only with Pakistan, which is rapidly modernising its air force with the arrival of JF-17 Block IIIs and two squadrons of Chinese J-10Cs, but also with China, whose efforts to modernise its armed forces need no introduction.
In fact, the arrival of a new modern fighter to replace the Indian Jaguar and Mig-21, capable of effectively opposing the JF-17, J-10C, J-16 and other J-20s, is not only essential, it is also urgent, especially as the future Tejas Mk2, due to replace the Indian Mirage 2000, will not arrive until the middle of the next decade at the earliest.
Dassault Aviation's major industrial site, strategically located close to India's most modern international airport and surrounded by an organised and qualified supply chain, will be a decisive competitive advantage in the MRCA 2 competition.
Added to this are the upgrades and adaptations of the Rafale to Indian requirements, carried out as part of the 2015 programme, and the training equipment and procedures already in use in the Indian Air Force, giving the French offer a significant price advantage over European (Typhoon and Gripen), American (F-15EX and F/A-18 E/F) and Russian (Mig-35, Su-35se) bids.
Safran is also deploying a maintenance and construction site in India for the Rafale M-88 engine.
Dassault Aviation is not alone in anticipating the Rafale's success in the MRCA 2 programme. Safran, the engine manufacturer that produces the M-88 turbojet engine for the French fighter, has also undertaken to set up an industrial site dedicated to the engine's operational maintenance, with the possibility of moving rapidly towards local production, "if the level of orders justifies it".
The French company has undertaken to build a site dedicated to MCO for the M-88, next to its Hyderabad site, which already produces LEAP engines for commercial aircraft. As with Dassault, Safran is jointly organising its entire supply chain, so as to be in a position to switch rapidly to local manufacture of turbojet engines, should the need arise.
The French engine-maker is also said to be in negotiations with DRDO, the Indian Ministry of Defence's armament and innovation agency, to support Indian industry in the design of a new-generation turbojet engine to power India's future fighter jets.
However, as in the case of support for the Indian naval industry in the design of a nuclear attack submarine, these strategic issues are being negotiated very discreetly between Paris and New Delhi, as part of a long-term advanced technological cooperation.
India could assemble Rafale export jets to relieve the MĆ©rignac assembly line
It would appear that Team Rafale and Dassault Aviatiion have come up with one last argument, but it's a big one, if they are to succeed in India as part of the MRCA 2 programme. According to the Indian press, the industrial infrastructure deployed in India to assemble the French fighter for the Indian Air Force could also be used to manufacture Rafales for other international customers.
According to the sources quoted, the assembly line that currently produces Rafales, at MĆ©rignac in Gironde, is currently unable to absorb new orders accompanied by short delivery schedules.
With nearly 300 fighters still to be produced, and even if production were increased to three aircraft a month, it would take Dassault Aviation eight years to clear its existing and future order books.
While Dassault may still be able to increase its production rates, doing the same for the 400 or so SMEs and ETIs that make up the Rafale team would be much harder. What's more, increasing human resources on such a scale, over a timescale of just a few years, is proving to be particularly complicated and risky in France, in view of French employment legislation.
Under these conditions, it is understandable that the aircraft manufacturer and the major companies in the Rafale team, such as Safran, Thales and MBDA, might have every interest in deploying this production buffer in India, precisely in order to absorb the peak demand and orders quickly, without destabilising the national infrastructure.
For New Delhi, on the other hand, exporting Rafales assembled in India would be a major industrial and political success, which would certainly be showcased on the national and international stage.
Conclusion
Naturally, we need to be cautious with the information emanating from the Indian press, which sometimes falls victim to "excessive enthusiasm". However, the scenario described here corresponds to the commitments made by Dassault and Team Rafale in 2015, when the first 36 Indian Rafales were ordered, and responds to very real needs and issues.
While this information should not be taken without reservation, it is clear that it is perfectly consistent with the existing context.
The fact remains that negotiations with the Indian authorities and industrial landscape are always complicated and lengthy, as the French negotiators are well aware, even if in recent days a certain Franco-Indian dynamic in the defence industry seems to be at work.
We will therefore have to be patient and attentive to developments in these different aspects of the same dossier, while obviously hoping for a positive conclusion for the Rafale, which would become the linchpin of India's air power and a worthy successor to the much-appreciated Mirage 2000i, alongside the Su-30MKI.
Dassault Aviation takes initiative to sell 114 Indian-built Rafales
Fabrice Wolf 3 August 2024
In 2012, Dassault Aviation won the Indian MRCA competition for 118 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force, around 100 of which were to be assembled in India. However, negotiations with HAL came to nothing, as the Indian aircraft manufacturer's industrial capabilities could not guarantee the level of quality demanded by the Indian armed forces, according to the French group.
In 2015, following the abandonment of the MRCA programme, New Delhi ordered 36 Rafale fighters from Dassault, to be assembled in France, but accompanied by a broad package of commitments on the part of French manufacturers to invest 50% of the ā¬8bn contract value in industrial capacity deployed in India.
It is against this backdrop that the Indian press has just revealed that Dassault has taken steps to build a very large operational maintenance site in the country, designed to provide Maintenance in Operational Condition (MCO) for the Mirage 2000 and Rafale aircraft in service with the Indian Air Force and, soon, the Indian Navy.
However, this investment will also give the French aircraft manufacturer, and the Rafale team as a whole, a major advantage in the MRCA 2 programme, which will replace the first MRCA and enable New Delhi to build 114 medium fighter aircraft locally to modernise the country's fighter fleet.
Indeed, the website hindustan-times.com has revealed that Dassault Aviation has taken steps to acquire a large area of land near the site of the new Noida International Airport, near the northern city of Jewar.
According to the Indian website, the French aircraft manufacturer intends to build a very large industrial site on this site, designed to ensure the operational maintenance of the Rafale and Mirage 2000 in service with the Indian Air Force, and certainly the Rafale M and B soon to be acquired by the Indian Navy.
This investment, which involves Dassault Aviation as well as other manufacturers in the Rafale team, is in line with the offset commitments made when the 36 Indian Rafales were ordered in 2015.
In addition to the industrial site to be built, the French manufacturer and its partners are now involved in organising the Indian supply chain, in order to comply with Make in India requirements, but also to avoid unpleasant surprises such as those encountered in 2012 with HAL. It would even appear that Dassault has begun to prepare its Titanium supply chain, in anticipation of a shift in Indian demand towards the manufacture of fighter jets at this site.
Moreover, according to information obtained by Indian journalists, it would appear that the site to be built will be designed to handle the maintenance of more than a hundred Rafales, i.e. far more than the fleet planned on the basis of current orders.
The Indian press is anticipating that this major industrial site, and the Supply Chain currently being deployed by Dassault and the Rafale Team, will provide an efficient, well-oiled tool for assembling the 114 combat aircraft under the MRCA 2 contract, giving the French fighter a decisive advantage in this competition.
In addition to the industrial and technological stakes involved in this contract, which could be worth up to $20 billion and represent the largest defence import contract ever awarded by New Delhi, production lead times are currently proving to be a decisive factor for the Indian Air Force.
The Indian air force is currently facing rising international and regional tensions, not only with Pakistan, which is rapidly modernising its air force with the arrival of JF-17 Block IIIs and two squadrons of Chinese J-10Cs, but also with China, whose efforts to modernise its armed forces need no introduction.
In fact, the arrival of a new modern fighter to replace the Indian Jaguar and Mig-21, capable of effectively opposing the JF-17, J-10C, J-16 and other J-20s, is not only essential, it is also urgent, especially as the future Tejas Mk2, due to replace the Indian Mirage 2000, will not arrive until the middle of the next decade at the earliest.
Dassault Aviation's major industrial site, strategically located close to India's most modern international airport and surrounded by an organised and qualified supply chain, will be a decisive competitive advantage in the MRCA 2 competition.
Added to this are the upgrades and adaptations of the Rafale to Indian requirements, carried out as part of the 2015 programme, and the training equipment and procedures already in use in the Indian Air Force, giving the French offer a significant price advantage over European (Typhoon and Gripen), American (F-15EX and F/A-18 E/F) and Russian (Mig-35, Su-35se) bids.
Safran is also deploying a maintenance and construction site in India for the Rafale M-88 engine.
Dassault Aviation is not alone in anticipating the Rafale's success in the MRCA 2 programme. Safran, the engine manufacturer that produces the M-88 turbojet engine for the French fighter, has also undertaken to set up an industrial site dedicated to the engine's operational maintenance, with the possibility of moving rapidly towards local production, "if the level of orders justifies it".
The French company has undertaken to build a site dedicated to MCO for the M-88, next to its Hyderabad site, which already produces LEAP engines for commercial aircraft. As with Dassault, Safran is jointly organising its entire supply chain, so as to be in a position to switch rapidly to local manufacture of turbojet engines, should the need arise.
The French engine-maker is also said to be in negotiations with DRDO, the Indian Ministry of Defence's armament and innovation agency, to support Indian industry in the design of a new-generation turbojet engine to power India's future fighter jets.
However, as in the case of support for the Indian naval industry in the design of a nuclear attack submarine, these strategic issues are being negotiated very discreetly between Paris and New Delhi, as part of a long-term advanced technological cooperation.
India could assemble Rafale export jets to relieve the MĆ©rignac assembly line
It would appear that Team Rafale and Dassault Aviatiion have come up with one last argument, but it's a big one, if they are to succeed in India as part of the MRCA 2 programme. According to the Indian press, the industrial infrastructure deployed in India to assemble the French fighter for the Indian Air Force could also be used to manufacture Rafales for other international customers.
According to the sources quoted, the assembly line that currently produces Rafales, at MĆ©rignac in Gironde, is currently unable to absorb new orders accompanied by short delivery schedules.
With nearly 300 fighters still to be produced, and even if production were increased to three aircraft a month, it would take Dassault Aviation eight years to clear its existing and future order books.
While Dassault may still be able to increase its production rates, doing the same for the 400 or so SMEs and ETIs that make up the Rafale team would be much harder. What's more, increasing human resources on such a scale, over a timescale of just a few years, is proving to be particularly complicated and risky in France, in view of French employment legislation.
Under these conditions, it is understandable that the aircraft manufacturer and the major companies in the Rafale team, such as Safran, Thales and MBDA, might have every interest in deploying this production buffer in India, precisely in order to absorb the peak demand and orders quickly, without destabilising the national infrastructure.
For New Delhi, on the other hand, exporting Rafales assembled in India would be a major industrial and political success, which would certainly be showcased on the national and international stage.
Conclusion
Naturally, we need to be cautious with the information emanating from the Indian press, which sometimes falls victim to "excessive enthusiasm". However, the scenario described here corresponds to the commitments made by Dassault and Team Rafale in 2015, when the first 36 Indian Rafales were ordered, and responds to very real needs and issues.
While this information should not be taken without reservation, it is clear that it is perfectly consistent with the existing context.
The fact remains that negotiations with the Indian authorities and industrial landscape are always complicated and lengthy, as the French negotiators are well aware, even if in recent days a certain Franco-Indian dynamic in the defence industry seems to be at work.
We will therefore have to be patient and attentive to developments in these different aspects of the same dossier, while obviously hoping for a positive conclusion for the Rafale, which would become the linchpin of India's air power and a worthy successor to the much-appreciated Mirage 2000i, alongside the Su-30MKI.
Saab, the Swedish firm behind the renowned SAAB JAS 39 Gripen-E, has revealed its production capabilities to the Indian Government. Should India choose SAAB for its MRFA program, they have promised to manufacture 20 and 25 fighters per year for the Indian Air Force.
It should speed up production for Brazil and Sweden then, because the Brazilian contract was signed before the Indian contract and Brazil must have 3 or 4 Gripen E pre-production.
Tejas MK2 is modelled after Gripen-E. So I don't see a point for it. It's going to be between Rafale, Typhoon and F-35(hopefully).
However, as I have been saying for the past few years here that we need to order 36 more Rafale ASAP. Preferably with 26 Rafale-M order. That should give us quite a breathing space until our modernisation is complete.
i guess if not mrfa then we should atleast order 54+26 rafale orders