MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Picdelamirand-oil]

When ex-president of the country who was in the know of what was happening during the deal, when he suggests there was nepotism in Rafale deal, how does one counter it? Would Modi still go and dare to order more Rafale and perhaps end the chances of BJP forming the govt for next 5 years?

Holland would have forced Reliance to finance Gayet's film. Should France be corrupted to sell its planes?
If Holland wanted to promote Gayet's film, all he had to do was tell the Minister of Culture to give a grant to his film, and it would have been legal.

 

[BMD]

We do have other options coming up which will reduce the need for fighter jets.

UCAVs and attack helicopters are coming in the hundreds. And naturally lots and lots of SAMs with capabilities that never existed in India before.

But we still need 42 squadrons of fighter jets.

You could use Tejas. They cost less and will absorb the same amount of Chinese time and resources to shoot them down.

 

[BMD]

When ex-president of the country who was in the know of what was happening during the deal, when he suggests there was nepotism in Rafale deal, how does one counter it? Would Modi still go and dare to order more Rafale and perhaps end the chances of BJP forming the govt for next 5 years?

What does the BJ Party stand for because it sure sounds interesting.

 

[BMD]

All irrelevant people seem to think so.

Including a congress leader.

 

[kollum]

The Hollande quote ( wich he later denied to the french press organisation ) reminds me of a personal experience with journos :

My soaring (engine less planes, if my english is not accurate enought) club invested into a launch system, with some financial help of few thousand euros from the local tax payer money.

A local paper news came to interview our president, and I was there during the interview. At some point, our proud prez got led to speak about the subvention throught a series of insisting question, switching subjec, not leting the time to answer completely before changing subject etc.. And there our president says something like "yes, thanks to public money blah blah" "but it is a big help for neighbours who get less noise, it is less expensive than the tow plane wich also had public help to change the engine, and it offers young people a step to get involved into aeronautical jobs". And thats true the tow allows the club to hire young people for the summer season every year ever since, of wich a lot have since become (army or civilian) pilots, mechanics, or designers for Airbus...

But the only thing the paper published was that it was a waste of 6000 Euros with a partial quote of the president ackoleging this gift from the state... Not a single word about the smile on the neighbors face who don't get the noise of a loud lycoming slowly taking of with a glider in tow every 5 min, not a word about the two teenagers that were also intervied about theire interesting summer job, and no mention that it was more economical than the former solution which also had public funding throught the youth and sport ministry support...


When I see how happy the guy who interviewed Holland was about bringing this "revelation" to the spotlight, I would not be surprised if Holland were answering about H.A.L being forced upon Dassault in the MMRCA context in the middle of a discution about Ambani and the GtoG deal and mixing everything up.
That would just look like what the press is in my opinion : people witch have you say something wich make their point, ignoring everything else you tell

 

[smestarz]

Just an honest question, are you born stupid, or you fell on your head?
Perhaps you dont know India as much as you claim.

There are 3 scenarios ..A) Holland Suggests Dassault, B) Dassault Selects Reliance, C) Modi Suggested Dassault.
In all the cases, the common part is Dassault and Quid pro quo.. So, if there is enough pressure made. The CAG and CVC would be asked to investigate, and till the time the investigation does not complete, Dassault would in theory not be considered for Deal.
Also its not suggestion of some newspaper here, your own Ex-President Hollande who was president then and so in know of the deal,

Do you know what happened when allegations of bofors were there? We did not do business with bofors for almost 2 decades... your time starts now !!!

What is legal in France may not be legal in India, France does not mind agents, officially India does not allow agents,,

Holland would have forced Reliance to finance Gayet's film. Should France be corrupted to sell its planes?
If Holland wanted to promote Gayet's film, all he had to do was tell the Minister of Culture to give a grant to his film, and it would have been legal.

 

[smestarz]

BJP denies any mischief from their side, but the point is that President Hollande gave a statement and later changed it a bit, but the cats out of the bag already. Am not sure if Hollandes career in French politics will be there or not, but surely, it leaves a very bad taste to india.
The matter has put the ruling party in uncomfortable position.

What does the BJ Party stand for because it sure sounds interesting.

 

[smestarz]

USUALLY they press members take a small recorder along with them and they can play the entire interview,
Hollande did not deny that he did not say that, he changed the statement the next day.. he DID NOT SAY "i was misquoted"

The Hollande quote ( wich he later denied to the french press organisation ) reminds me of a personal experience with journos :

My soaring (engine less planes, if my english is not accurate enought) club invested into a launch system, with some financial help of few thousand euros from the local tax payer money.

A local paper news came to interview our president, and I was there during the interview. At some point, our proud prez got led to speak about the subvention throught a series of insisting question, switching subjec, not leting the time to answer completely before changing subject etc.. And there our president says something like "yes, thanks to public money blah blah" "but it is a big help for neighbours who get less noise, it is less expensive than the tow plane wich also had public help to change the engine, and it offers young people a step to get involved into aeronautical jobs". And thats true the tow allows the club to hire young people for the summer season every year ever since, of wich a lot have since become (army or civilian) pilots, mechanics, or designers for Airbus...

But the only thing the paper published was that it was a waste of 6000 Euros with a partial quote of the president ackoleging this gift from the state... Not a single word about the smile on the neighbors face who don't get the noise of a loud lycoming slowly taking of with a glider in tow every 5 min, not a word about the two teenagers that were also intervied about theire interesting summer job, and no mention that it was more economical than the former solution which also had public funding throught the youth and sport ministry support...


When I see how happy the guy who interviewed Holland was about bringing this "revelation" to the spotlight, I would not be surprised if Holland were answering about H.A.L being forced upon Dassault in the MMRCA context in the middle of a discution about Ambani and the GtoG deal and mixing everything up.
That would just look like what the press is in my opinion : people witch have you say something wich make their point, ignoring everything else you tell

 

[BMD]

BJP denies any mischief from their side, but the point is that President Hollande gave a statement and later changed it a bit, but the cats out of the bag already. Am not sure if Hollandes career in French politics will be there or not, but surely, it leaves a very bad taste to india.
The matter has put the ruling party in uncomfortable position.

Having watched all this unfold, I'm actually glad the Typhoon didn't win the contract. This is way to much hassle for 36 planes.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Just an honest question, are you born stupid, or you fell on your head?
Perhaps you dont know India as much as you claim.

There are 3 scenarios ..A) Holland Suggests Dassault, B) Dassault Selects Reliance, C) Modi Suggested Dassault.
In all the cases, the common part is Dassault and Quid pro quo.. So, if there is enough pressure made. The CAG and CVC would be asked to investigate, and till the time the investigation does not complete, Dassault would in theory not be considered for Deal.
Also its not suggestion of some newspaper here, your own Ex-President Hollande who was president then and so in know of the deal,

Do you know what happened when allegations of bofors were there? We did not do business with bofors for almost 2 decades... your time starts now !!!

What is legal in France may not be legal in India, France does not mind agents, officially India does not allow agents,,

Like the congress, you are completely obsessed with finding corruption in the agreement with Dassault. You don't realize how completely crazy and unsubstantiated it is. What I wanted to highlight is that even if we thought it was certain that there had been a wrongdoing, the sums at stake are too small if we consider the actors who are accused, for this level of cheating it was much easier to get a legal grant awarded to Gayet's film than to try to have a retro commission in a government-to-government agreement. I am sure that MODI can destroy the opposition's arguments in 5 minutes but that it waits for the right moment so that opposition can focus on this case which has no future for it because it prevents other more embarrassing cases from coming out.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The Defence Minister is an innocent lady. She does not know many things that happened concerning the Rafale deal before she took over on September 3, 2017. She appears to have even overlooked her own schedule of daily engagements.

The Rafale aircraft deal between the governments of India and France was announced by the Prime Minister in Paris on April 10, 2015, and an agreement was signed on September 23, 2016. It has kicked up a controversy and a demand for an enquiry. Recently, the defence minister asked, “Why should I order an enquiry?” Giving her the benefit of the doubt that we always extend to innocent persons, I think it is only fair to supply the reasons. Here are 10 reasons:

1. The governments of India and France had entered into an MoU under which India would buy 126 Rafale twin-engine multi-role fighter aircraft. The price per aircraft discovered through an international bid opened on December 12, 2012, was Rs 526.10 crore. Dassault, the manufacturer, would supply 18 aircraft in ‘fly away’ condition. The remaining 108 aircraft would be manufactured in India at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s facilities in Bengaluru using Dassault technology that would be available to HAL under a Transfer of Technology agreement. That MoU was cancelled and the Prime Minister announced the new ‘deal’ on April 10, 2015. Will the Defence Minister please tell us why was the decision taken to cancel the earlier MoU and enter into a new agreement?

Because HAL doesn't know how to do it, would have taken twice the money and 2.7 times the manufacturing time, and wanted to make Dassault take the blame for his incompetence. The ruling of the MMRCA 1st edition was issued on July 30, 2015 by means of an official statement.

2. Under the new agreement, India will buy 36 aircraft at an undisclosed price. The Indian Air Force has said it needed 42 squadrons of fighter jets; it has now 31 squadrons. Why did the government decide to buy only 36 aircraft (2 squadrons) when the need was for 126 aircraft (7 squadrons) and perhaps more?

Because it is an emergency operational purchase since the planes are missing, and that would have been contrary to India's interest, which is to make in India. In addition, buying 36 aircraft made in France means a twofold increase in the number of aircraft made in France that were originally to be purchased and delivered QUICKLY as part of the MMRCA 1st edition. So technically it's an increase in the number of planes that he's sure and certain would have joined the Indian Air Force.


3. By all accounts, the government is purchasing the same aircraft from the same manufacturer under “the same configuration”.

False!!!!! it was about the mmrca 1, not the government-to-government purchase that has nothing to do with the mmrca that was cancelled following the failure of negotiations with HAL.

The last phrase is found in the joint statement dated April 10, 2015. Is it true that the price per aircraft under the new agreement is Rs 1,670 crore (as disclosed by Dassault) and, if true, what is the justification for the three-fold price increase?

The fact that the new deal includes numerous specific improvements that are expensive for India and no longer has anything to do with the previous deal.

4. If the price of the aircraft under the new agreement is indeed “cheaper” by 9%, as claimed by the government, why is the government buying only 36 aircraft and not all the 126 aircraft offered by Dassault?

Because we want to perform "Make in India" and not only win back indian money. hence the creation of DRAL, which, if the deal for the future 114 mmrca2 aircraft does not work, will simply make Falcon pieces, which will not cost the indian people anything, but which, if the Rafale gains 114 mmrca2, will also make Rafale pieces, then in the end complete Rafale, under some of the offsets provided for by the contract.
And indeed aircraft are 9% cheaper than the initial price of the 36 planned which has been renegotiated. But not cheaper than the price per aircraft of the mmrca which are old version compare to the G to G deal.

5. The new agreement was presented as an “emergency purchase”. If the first aircraft will be delivered only in September 2019 (four years after the agreement) and the last only in 2022, how does it qualify as an emergenc purchase?

Because you're obviously too stupid to understand that an aircraft doesn't take as long to be manufactured as a car, which itself can take up to several months to be built even in factories that spit out hundreds of thousands of them a year?

6. HAL has experience of 77 years and has manufactured a variety of aircraft under licence from the respective manufacturer. When entering into the new agreement, there was no mention of Transfer of Technology from Dassault to HAL. Why was the agreement to transfer technology to HAL scrapped?

Because despite their "experience" they are wankers badly directed, badly managed, badly trained and poorly equipped, that they have been on the tejas for 30 years without it being operational, and that they were not able to make the Rafale except at twice the price and 2.7 times the Dassault time! damn it even their boss admitted it!!! Then you want them quickly or not quickly your planes? You want them expensive or cheap? You have to be logical at a moment.

7. Every defence purchase by India imposes an ‘offset’ obligation upon the vendor. Dassault has admitted that it would have an offset obligation to the tune of Rs 30,000 crore against the sale of 36 aircraft. HAL is a public sector undertaking. It had entered into a ‘work share’ agreement with Dassault on March 3, 2014, and was qualified to be the offset partner. Former President of France, Mr François Hollande, has disclosed that the Government of India had suggested the name of a private sector company as the offset partner and France and Dassault had “no choice” in the matter. The Government of India has denied that it had suggested the name. Did the government suggest any name at all and, if not, why did it not suggest the name of HAL?

Noooooooo. He did not say that "Dassault had no choice". he said "we". as in "we the French government" had no choice. Nuance. He later retracted to explain himself on the terms used.

8. The defence minister of France, Ms Florence Parly, called on the defence minister of India on October 27, 2017, in New Delhi. The same day, Ms Parly flew to Nagpur. At a function attended by Mr Nitin Gadkari, Union minister, Mr Devendra Fadnavis, chief minister of Maharashtra, and the Ambassador of France to India, Ms Parly laid the foundation stone for the factory of the private sector company at Mihan, near Nagpur, where the offset supplies would be manufactured. Did the defence minister not know about this engagement of Ms Parly when the two met and, if not, did she not read about it in the newspapers the next day?

No, either. Nagpur will not be an "offsets factory" (which by the way means nothing, maybe you thought Samtel would move into the Dral factory to make lcd screens????). Nagpur will immediately manufacture Falcons and Rafale business jet parts for the global suply chain. So including why not parts for the Qatari or Egyptian, or even French Rafale. So yes, it concerns the French Minister of Defence, because it is a joint venture owned 49% by a French defence group.

9. Dassault and the private sector offset partner had disclosed in an October 2016 press release that their joint venture “will be a key player in the execution of offset obligations”. Was the defence minister telling the truth when she said that she was not aware if Dassault had chosen a private sector company as the offset partner?

Well yes because, if you followed, Dassault was the only one to choose his partners to execute this contract surrounding offset. And it is not "a" private company but more than 100 today!!!!

10. HAL has a record of manufacturing MIG, Mirage

No. The 2000 H Mirage are all out of the Dassault plant, 30 seconds on Google and you found the info Dassault Mirage 2000 - Wikipedia

and Sukhoi under licence and its own Tejas aircraft

That after 30 years is always not operational but it's a detail.

It has assets of Rs 64,000 crore. In 2017-18, its turnover was Rs 18,283 crore and its profit Rs 3,322 crore

WHO GIVES A SHIT?

In a recent statement, the defence minister has contradicted the statement of Mr TS Raju, former CMD of HAL, and made disparaging remarks against HAL. Is it the intention of the government to privatise HAL or close down HAL?

I have given 10 (Shit) reasons (there are more) More shit? Oh *censored*... why the government should order an enquiry into the faecal matter? Over to the innocent Defence Minister.

Because that's how ministers are treated in India.

Rafale deal: P Chidambaram’s 10 reasons why Defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman should order an enquiry

 

[Shajida Khan]

The Defence Minister is an innocent lady. She does not know many things that happened concerning the Rafale deal before she took over on September 3, 2017. She appears to have even overlooked her own schedule of daily engagements.

The Rafale aircraft deal between the governments of India and France was announced by the Prime Minister in Paris on April 10, 2015, and an agreement was signed on September 23, 2016. It has kicked up a controversy and a demand for an enquiry. Recently, the defence minister asked, “Why should I order an enquiry?” Giving her the benefit of the doubt that we always extend to innocent persons, I think it is only fair to supply the reasons. Here are 10 reasons:

1. The governments of India and France had entered into an MoU under which India would buy 126 Rafale twin-engine multi-role fighter aircraft. The price per aircraft discovered through an international bid opened on December 12, 2012, was Rs 526.10 crore. Dassault, the manufacturer, would supply 18 aircraft in ‘fly away’ condition. The remaining 108 aircraft would be manufactured in India at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s facilities in Bengaluru using Dassault technology that would be available to HAL under a Transfer of Technology agreement. That MoU was cancelled and the Prime Minister announced the new ‘deal’ on April 10, 2015. Will the Defence Minister please tell us why was the decision taken to cancel the earlier MoU and enter into a new agreement?

Because HAL doesn't know how to do it, would have taken twice the money and 2.7 times the manufacturing time, and wanted to make Dassault take the blame for his incompetence. The ruling of the MMRCA 1st edition was issued on July 30, 2015 by means of an official statement.

2. Under the new agreement, India will buy 36 aircraft at an undisclosed price. The Indian Air Force has said it needed 42 squadrons of fighter jets; it has now 31 squadrons. Why did the government decide to buy only 36 aircraft (2 squadrons) when the need was for 126 aircraft (7 squadrons) and perhaps more?

Because it is an emergency operational purchase since the planes are missing, and that would have been contrary to India's interest, which is to make in India. In addition, buying 36 aircraft made in France means a twofold increase in the number of aircraft made in France that were originally to be purchased and delivered QUICKLY as part of the MMRCA 1st edition. So technically it's an increase in the number of planes that he's sure and certain would have joined the Indian Air Force.


3. By all accounts, the government is purchasing the same aircraft from the same manufacturer under “the same configuration”.

False!!!!! it was about the mmrca 1, not the government-to-government purchase that has nothing to do with the mmrca that was cancelled following the failure of negotiations with HAL.

The last phrase is found in the joint statement dated April 10, 2015. Is it true that the price per aircraft under the new agreement is Rs 1,670 crore (as disclosed by Dassault) and, if true, what is the justification for the three-fold price increase?

The fact that the new deal includes numerous specific improvements that are expensive for India and no longer has anything to do with the previous deal.

4. If the price of the aircraft under the new agreement is indeed “cheaper” by 9%, as claimed by the government, why is the government buying only 36 aircraft and not all the 126 aircraft offered by Dassault?

Because we want to perform "Make in India" and not only win back indian money. hence the creation of DRAL, which, if the deal for the future 114 mmrca2 aircraft does not work, will simply make Falcon pieces, which will not cost the indian people anything, but which, if the Rafale gains 114 mmrca2, will also make Rafale pieces, then in the end complete Rafale, under some of the offsets provided for by the contract.
And indeed aircraft are 9% cheaper than the initial price of the 36 planned which has been renegotiated. But not cheaper than the price per aircraft of the mmrca which are old version compare to the G to G deal.

5. The new agreement was presented as an “emergency purchase”. If the first aircraft will be delivered only in September 2019 (four years after the agreement) and the last only in 2022, how does it qualify as an emergenc purchase?

Because you're obviously too stupid to understand that an aircraft doesn't take as long to be manufactured as a car, which itself can take up to several months to be built even in factories that spit out hundreds of thousands of them a year?

6. HAL has experience of 77 years and has manufactured a variety of aircraft under licence from the respective manufacturer. When entering into the new agreement, there was no mention of Transfer of Technology from Dassault to HAL. Why was the agreement to transfer technology to HAL scrapped?

Because despite their "experience" they are wankers badly directed, badly managed, badly trained and poorly equipped, that they have been on the tejas for 30 years without it being operational, and that they were not able to make the Rafale except at twice the price and 2.7 times the Dassault time! damn it even their boss admitted it!!! Then you want them quickly or not quickly your planes? You want them expensive or cheap? You have to be logical at a moment.

7. Every defence purchase by India imposes an ‘offset’ obligation upon the vendor. Dassault has admitted that it would have an offset obligation to the tune of Rs 30,000 crore against the sale of 36 aircraft. HAL is a public sector undertaking. It had entered into a ‘work share’ agreement with Dassault on March 3, 2014, and was qualified to be the offset partner. Former President of France, Mr François Hollande, has disclosed that the Government of India had suggested the name of a private sector company as the offset partner and France and Dassault had “no choice” in the matter. The Government of India has denied that it had suggested the name. Did the government suggest any name at all and, if not, why did it not suggest the name of HAL?

Noooooooo. He did not say that "Dassault had no choice". he said "we". as in "we the French government" had no choice. Nuance. He later retracted to explain himself on the terms used.

8. The defence minister of France, Ms Florence Parly, called on the defence minister of India on October 27, 2017, in New Delhi. The same day, Ms Parly flew to Nagpur. At a function attended by Mr Nitin Gadkari, Union minister, Mr Devendra Fadnavis, chief minister of Maharashtra, and the Ambassador of France to India, Ms Parly laid the foundation stone for the factory of the private sector company at Mihan, near Nagpur, where the offset supplies would be manufactured. Did the defence minister not know about this engagement of Ms Parly when the two met and, if not, did she not read about it in the newspapers the next day?

No, either. Nagpur will not be an "offsets factory" (which by the way means nothing, maybe you thought Samtel would move into the Dral factory to make lcd screens????). Nagpur will immediately manufacture Falcons and Rafale business jet parts for the global suply chain. So including why not parts for the Qatari or Egyptian, or even French Rafale. So yes, it concerns the French Minister of Defence, because it is a joint venture owned 49% by a French defence group.

9. Dassault and the private sector offset partner had disclosed in an October 2016 press release that their joint venture “will be a key player in the execution of offset obligations”. Was the defence minister telling the truth when she said that she was not aware if Dassault had chosen a private sector company as the offset partner?

Well yes because, if you followed, Dassault was the only one to choose his partners to execute this contract surrounding offset. And it is not "a" private company but more than 100 today!!!!

10. HAL has a record of manufacturing MIG, Mirage

No. The 2000 H Mirage are all out of the Dassault plant, 30 seconds on Google and you found the info Dassault Mirage 2000 - Wikipedia

and Sukhoi under licence and its own Tejas aircraft

That after 30 years is always not operational but it's a detail.

It has assets of Rs 64,000 crore. In 2017-18, its turnover was Rs 18,283 crore and its profit Rs 3,322 crore

WHO GIVES A SHIT?

In a recent statement, the defence minister has contradicted the statement of Mr TS Raju, former CMD of HAL, and made disparaging remarks against HAL. Is it the intention of the government to privatise HAL or close down HAL?

I have given 10 (Shit) reasons (there are more) More shit? Oh *censored*... why the government should order an enquiry into the faecal matter? Over to the innocent Defence Minister.

Because that's how ministers are treated in India.

Rafale deal: P Chidambaram’s 10 reasons why Defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman should order an enquiry

India has a long tradition of guilt by association. Heck, we love to kill people because they belong to CASTE of some alleged wrongdoer. Plus Indians are those who will spend the next 30 billion dollars and 30 years to investigate this 9 billion dollar worth of the deal. Somethings never change.

 

[A Person]

angry rant

You really should say when you take things from a post on a different forum.

 

[randomradio]

My two paise worth (since it buys nothing nowadays, do take with a pinch of salt):

The thrust will remain over the coming five years to further boost economic growth and increase industrial base. In addition, specific to defence industries, Modi is shrewd enough to understand what ails our sector. But you can not change a system overnight. And elections too have to be won. So, the private sector is being allowed in to generate a competition with OFB. With government restructuring and downsizing in coming years a reality to curtail the budget deficit, the writing is there on the wall for the OFB and DPSUs - perform or be wound down.

So, the AK-103 program is a step in that direction. But for now, big ticket purchases will be slow as there is also a recognition of not making the same mistakes that we made in 80s - to gain technological edge, we went for massive modernisation. But without an economic base to sustain that modernisation drive and maintain the edge we achieved, 90s saw us mothballing our tanks and aircrafts being grounded for extended time to preserve war wastage reserves and equipment. We literally cut down flying hours of our pilots to bare minimum so that they don't forget their aircraft. Armoured units packed their tanks and got inducted into valley in counter insurgency mode as fuel was unavailable for routine exercises.

So, till about 2022, we will see piecemeal inductions as capability is built up domestically.

Our induction in the last 4 years have been satisfactory. The army scored a lot of artillery contracts, the air force got Rafales and S-400 and the navy got new frigates and SSNs.

Yes, we need an economy first, but the squadron draw down is too much.

 

[Sathya]

My two paise worth (since it buys nothing nowadays, do take with a pinch of salt):

The thrust will remain over the coming five years to further boost economic growth and increase industrial base. In addition, specific to defence industries, Modi is shrewd enough to understand what ails our sector. But you can not change a system overnight. And elections too have to be won. So, the private sector is being allowed in to generate a competition with OFB. With government restructuring and downsizing in coming years a reality to curtail the budget deficit, the writing is there on the wall for the OFB and DPSUs - perform or be wound down.

So, the AK-103 program is a step in that direction. But for now, big ticket purchases will be slow as there is also a recognition of not making the same mistakes that we made in 80s - to gain technological edge, we went for massive modernisation. But without an economic base to sustain that modernisation drive and maintain the edge we achieved, 90s saw us mothballing our tanks and aircrafts being grounded for extended time to preserve war wastage reserves and equipment. We literally cut down flying hours of our pilots to bare minimum so that they don't forget their aircraft. Armoured units packed their tanks and got inducted into valley in counter insurgency mode as fuel was unavailable for routine exercises.

So, till about 2022, we will see piecemeal inductions as capability is built up domestically.

No Fseries too ?

S400 is going to be th last big purchase before 2022 ?

 

[randomradio]

No Fseries too ?

S400 is going to be th last big purchase before 2022 ?

Big purchases will happen every year. The scale of the purchases will increase after 2022.

 

[Sathya]

Big purchases will happen every year. The scale of the purchases will increase after 2022.

If domestic companies were nurtured with orders till 2022, we shouldn't increase the scale after that .. Not likely ?

~~~~~~~~~~

Somehow i feel that ,this is already being followed .
Foreign orders were less , domestic more in this term compared to previous congress term ~ correct ?

 

[randomradio]

If domestic companies were nurtured with orders till 2022, we shouldn't increase the scale after that .. Not likely ?

~~~~~~~~~~

Somehow i feel that ,this is already being followed .
Foreign orders were less , domestic more in this term compared to previous congress term ~ correct ?

What I mean is we will be signing more big ticket deals after 2022.

 

[smestarz]

There are few things that are coming out, for example the Dassault bid was incomplete (already known) and few of the critical parts Dassault had put them in "Miscellaneous" particulars and hence they were not taken into consideration in cost calculations. but later when someone took the cost of these Miscellaneous items the Dassault bid was much higher than that of Eurofighter... So in a way Dassault wsa not really forthcoming about the real price. This does seem to be a French forte as the same was seen in Scorpene Submarine where Miscellaneous turned out to be worth a billion dollars and cause more than a year of Delay.. Seems this is standard operating procedure of French "Friends"

The Defence Minister is an innocent lady. She does not know many things that happened concerning the Rafale deal before she took over on September 3, 2017. She appears to have even overlooked her own schedule of daily engagements.

The Rafale aircraft deal between the governments of India and France was announced by the Prime Minister in Paris on April 10, 2015, and an agreement was signed on September 23, 2016. It has kicked up a controversy and a demand for an enquiry. Recently, the defence minister asked, “Why should I order an enquiry?” Giving her the benefit of the doubt that we always extend to innocent persons, I think it is only fair to supply the reasons. Here are 10 reasons:

1. The governments of India and France had entered into an MoU under which India would buy 126 Rafale twin-engine multi-role fighter aircraft. The price per aircraft discovered through an international bid opened on December 12, 2012, was Rs 526.10 crore. Dassault, the manufacturer, would supply 18 aircraft in ‘fly away’ condition. The remaining 108 aircraft would be manufactured in India at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s facilities in Bengaluru using Dassault technology that would be available to HAL under a Transfer of Technology agreement. That MoU was cancelled and the Prime Minister announced the new ‘deal’ on April 10, 2015. Will the Defence Minister please tell us why was the decision taken to cancel the earlier MoU and enter into a new agreement?

Because HAL doesn't know how to do it, would have taken twice the money and 2.7 times the manufacturing time, and wanted to make Dassault take the blame for his incompetence. The ruling of the MMRCA 1st edition was issued on July 30, 2015 by means of an official statement.

2. Under the new agreement, India will buy 36 aircraft at an undisclosed price. The Indian Air Force has said it needed 42 squadrons of fighter jets; it has now 31 squadrons. Why did the government decide to buy only 36 aircraft (2 squadrons) when the need was for 126 aircraft (7 squadrons) and perhaps more?

Because it is an emergency operational purchase since the planes are missing, and that would have been contrary to India's interest, which is to make in India. In addition, buying 36 aircraft made in France means a twofold increase in the number of aircraft made in France that were originally to be purchased and delivered QUICKLY as part of the MMRCA 1st edition. So technically it's an increase in the number of planes that he's sure and certain would have joined the Indian Air Force.


3. By all accounts, the government is purchasing the same aircraft from the same manufacturer under “the same configuration”.

False!!!!! it was about the mmrca 1, not the government-to-government purchase that has nothing to do with the mmrca that was cancelled following the failure of negotiations with HAL.

The last phrase is found in the joint statement dated April 10, 2015. Is it true that the price per aircraft under the new agreement is Rs 1,670 crore (as disclosed by Dassault) and, if true, what is the justification for the three-fold price increase?

The fact that the new deal includes numerous specific improvements that are expensive for India and no longer has anything to do with the previous deal.

4. If the price of the aircraft under the new agreement is indeed “cheaper” by 9%, as claimed by the government, why is the government buying only 36 aircraft and not all the 126 aircraft offered by Dassault?

Because we want to perform "Make in India" and not only win back indian money. hence the creation of DRAL, which, if the deal for the future 114 mmrca2 aircraft does not work, will simply make Falcon pieces, which will not cost the indian people anything, but which, if the Rafale gains 114 mmrca2, will also make Rafale pieces, then in the end complete Rafale, under some of the offsets provided for by the contract.
And indeed aircraft are 9% cheaper than the initial price of the 36 planned which has been renegotiated. But not cheaper than the price per aircraft of the mmrca which are old version compare to the G to G deal.

5. The new agreement was presented as an “emergency purchase”. If the first aircraft will be delivered only in September 2019 (four years after the agreement) and the last only in 2022, how does it qualify as an emergenc purchase?

Because you're obviously too stupid to understand that an aircraft doesn't take as long to be manufactured as a car, which itself can take up to several months to be built even in factories that spit out hundreds of thousands of them a year?

6. HAL has experience of 77 years and has manufactured a variety of aircraft under licence from the respective manufacturer. When entering into the new agreement, there was no mention of Transfer of Technology from Dassault to HAL. Why was the agreement to transfer technology to HAL scrapped?

Because despite their "experience" they are wankers badly directed, badly managed, badly trained and poorly equipped, that they have been on the tejas for 30 years without it being operational, and that they were not able to make the Rafale except at twice the price and 2.7 times the Dassault time! damn it even their boss admitted it!!! Then you want them quickly or not quickly your planes? You want them expensive or cheap? You have to be logical at a moment.

7. Every defence purchase by India imposes an ‘offset’ obligation upon the vendor. Dassault has admitted that it would have an offset obligation to the tune of Rs 30,000 crore against the sale of 36 aircraft. HAL is a public sector undertaking. It had entered into a ‘work share’ agreement with Dassault on March 3, 2014, and was qualified to be the offset partner. Former President of France, Mr François Hollande, has disclosed that the Government of India had suggested the name of a private sector company as the offset partner and France and Dassault had “no choice” in the matter. The Government of India has denied that it had suggested the name. Did the government suggest any name at all and, if not, why did it not suggest the name of HAL?

Noooooooo. He did not say that "Dassault had no choice". he said "we". as in "we the French government" had no choice. Nuance. He later retracted to explain himself on the terms used.

8. The defence minister of France, Ms Florence Parly, called on the defence minister of India on October 27, 2017, in New Delhi. The same day, Ms Parly flew to Nagpur. At a function attended by Mr Nitin Gadkari, Union minister, Mr Devendra Fadnavis, chief minister of Maharashtra, and the Ambassador of France to India, Ms Parly laid the foundation stone for the factory of the private sector company at Mihan, near Nagpur, where the offset supplies would be manufactured. Did the defence minister not know about this engagement of Ms Parly when the two met and, if not, did she not read about it in the newspapers the next day?

No, either. Nagpur will not be an "offsets factory" (which by the way means nothing, maybe you thought Samtel would move into the Dral factory to make lcd screens????). Nagpur will immediately manufacture Falcons and Rafale business jet parts for the global suply chain. So including why not parts for the Qatari or Egyptian, or even French Rafale. So yes, it concerns the French Minister of Defence, because it is a joint venture owned 49% by a French defence group.

9. Dassault and the private sector offset partner had disclosed in an October 2016 press release that their joint venture “will be a key player in the execution of offset obligations”. Was the defence minister telling the truth when she said that she was not aware if Dassault had chosen a private sector company as the offset partner?

Well yes because, if you followed, Dassault was the only one to choose his partners to execute this contract surrounding offset. And it is not "a" private company but more than 100 today!!!!

10. HAL has a record of manufacturing MIG, Mirage

No. The 2000 H Mirage are all out of the Dassault plant, 30 seconds on Google and you found the info Dassault Mirage 2000 - Wikipedia

and Sukhoi under licence and its own Tejas aircraft

That after 30 years is always not operational but it's a detail.

It has assets of Rs 64,000 crore. In 2017-18, its turnover was Rs 18,283 crore and its profit Rs 3,322 crore

WHO GIVES A SHIT?

In a recent statement, the defence minister has contradicted the statement of Mr TS Raju, former CMD of HAL, and made disparaging remarks against HAL. Is it the intention of the government to privatise HAL or close down HAL?

I have given 10 (Shit) reasons (there are more) More shit? Oh *censored*... why the government should order an enquiry into the faecal matter? Over to the innocent Defence Minister.

Because that's how ministers are treated in India.

Rafale deal: P Chidambaram’s 10 reasons why Defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman should order an enquiry

 

[smestarz]

Does putting all This crap to try and justify Rafale makes you look more guilty !!

The Defence Minister is an innocent lady. She does not know many things that happened concerning the Rafale deal before she took over on September 3, 2017. She appears to have even overlooked her own schedule of daily engagements.

The Rafale aircraft deal between the governments of India and France was announced by the Prime Minister in Paris on April 10, 2015, and an agreement was signed on September 23, 2016. It has kicked up a controversy and a demand for an enquiry. Recently, the defence minister asked, “Why should I order an enquiry?” Giving her the benefit of the doubt that we always extend to innocent persons, I think it is only fair to supply the reasons. Here are 10 reasons:

1. The governments of India and France had entered into an MoU under which India would buy 126 Rafale twin-engine multi-role fighter aircraft. The price per aircraft discovered through an international bid opened on December 12, 2012, was Rs 526.10 crore. Dassault, the manufacturer, would supply 18 aircraft in ‘fly away’ condition. The remaining 108 aircraft would be manufactured in India at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s facilities in Bengaluru using Dassault technology that would be available to HAL under a Transfer of Technology agreement. That MoU was cancelled and the Prime Minister announced the new ‘deal’ on April 10, 2015. Will the Defence Minister please tell us why was the decision taken to cancel the earlier MoU and enter into a new agreement?

Because HAL doesn't know how to do it, would have taken twice the money and 2.7 times the manufacturing time, and wanted to make Dassault take the blame for his incompetence. The ruling of the MMRCA 1st edition was issued on July 30, 2015 by means of an official statement.

2. Under the new agreement, India will buy 36 aircraft at an undisclosed price. The Indian Air Force has said it needed 42 squadrons of fighter jets; it has now 31 squadrons. Why did the government decide to buy only 36 aircraft (2 squadrons) when the need was for 126 aircraft (7 squadrons) and perhaps more?

Because it is an emergency operational purchase since the planes are missing, and that would have been contrary to India's interest, which is to make in India. In addition, buying 36 aircraft made in France means a twofold increase in the number of aircraft made in France that were originally to be purchased and delivered QUICKLY as part of the MMRCA 1st edition. So technically it's an increase in the number of planes that he's sure and certain would have joined the Indian Air Force.


3. By all accounts, the government is purchasing the same aircraft from the same manufacturer under “the same configuration”.

False!!!!! it was about the mmrca 1, not the government-to-government purchase that has nothing to do with the mmrca that was cancelled following the failure of negotiations with HAL.

The last phrase is found in the joint statement dated April 10, 2015. Is it true that the price per aircraft under the new agreement is Rs 1,670 crore (as disclosed by Dassault) and, if true, what is the justification for the three-fold price increase?

The fact that the new deal includes numerous specific improvements that are expensive for India and no longer has anything to do with the previous deal.

4. If the price of the aircraft under the new agreement is indeed “cheaper” by 9%, as claimed by the government, why is the government buying only 36 aircraft and not all the 126 aircraft offered by Dassault?

Because we want to perform "Make in India" and not only win back indian money. hence the creation of DRAL, which, if the deal for the future 114 mmrca2 aircraft does not work, will simply make Falcon pieces, which will not cost the indian people anything, but which, if the Rafale gains 114 mmrca2, will also make Rafale pieces, then in the end complete Rafale, under some of the offsets provided for by the contract.
And indeed aircraft are 9% cheaper than the initial price of the 36 planned which has been renegotiated. But not cheaper than the price per aircraft of the mmrca which are old version compare to the G to G deal.

5. The new agreement was presented as an “emergency purchase”. If the first aircraft will be delivered only in September 2019 (four years after the agreement) and the last only in 2022, how does it qualify as an emergenc purchase?

Because you're obviously too stupid to understand that an aircraft doesn't take as long to be manufactured as a car, which itself can take up to several months to be built even in factories that spit out hundreds of thousands of them a year?

6. HAL has experience of 77 years and has manufactured a variety of aircraft under licence from the respective manufacturer. When entering into the new agreement, there was no mention of Transfer of Technology from Dassault to HAL. Why was the agreement to transfer technology to HAL scrapped?

Because despite their "experience" they are wankers badly directed, badly managed, badly trained and poorly equipped, that they have been on the tejas for 30 years without it being operational, and that they were not able to make the Rafale except at twice the price and 2.7 times the Dassault time! damn it even their boss admitted it!!! Then you want them quickly or not quickly your planes? You want them expensive or cheap? You have to be logical at a moment.

7. Every defence purchase by India imposes an ‘offset’ obligation upon the vendor. Dassault has admitted that it would have an offset obligation to the tune of Rs 30,000 crore against the sale of 36 aircraft. HAL is a public sector undertaking. It had entered into a ‘work share’ agreement with Dassault on March 3, 2014, and was qualified to be the offset partner. Former President of France, Mr François Hollande, has disclosed that the Government of India had suggested the name of a private sector company as the offset partner and France and Dassault had “no choice” in the matter. The Government of India has denied that it had suggested the name. Did the government suggest any name at all and, if not, why did it not suggest the name of HAL?

Noooooooo. He did not say that "Dassault had no choice". he said "we". as in "we the French government" had no choice. Nuance. He later retracted to explain himself on the terms used.

8. The defence minister of France, Ms Florence Parly, called on the defence minister of India on October 27, 2017, in New Delhi. The same day, Ms Parly flew to Nagpur. At a function attended by Mr Nitin Gadkari, Union minister, Mr Devendra Fadnavis, chief minister of Maharashtra, and the Ambassador of France to India, Ms Parly laid the foundation stone for the factory of the private sector company at Mihan, near Nagpur, where the offset supplies would be manufactured. Did the defence minister not know about this engagement of Ms Parly when the two met and, if not, did she not read about it in the newspapers the next day?

No, either. Nagpur will not be an "offsets factory" (which by the way means nothing, maybe you thought Samtel would move into the Dral factory to make lcd screens????). Nagpur will immediately manufacture Falcons and Rafale business jet parts for the global suply chain. So including why not parts for the Qatari or Egyptian, or even French Rafale. So yes, it concerns the French Minister of Defence, because it is a joint venture owned 49% by a French defence group.

9. Dassault and the private sector offset partner had disclosed in an October 2016 press release that their joint venture “will be a key player in the execution of offset obligations”. Was the defence minister telling the truth when she said that she was not aware if Dassault had chosen a private sector company as the offset partner?

Well yes because, if you followed, Dassault was the only one to choose his partners to execute this contract surrounding offset. And it is not "a" private company but more than 100 today!!!!

10. HAL has a record of manufacturing MIG, Mirage

No. The 2000 H Mirage are all out of the Dassault plant, 30 seconds on Google and you found the info Dassault Mirage 2000 - Wikipedia

and Sukhoi under licence and its own Tejas aircraft

That after 30 years is always not operational but it's a detail.

It has assets of Rs 64,000 crore. In 2017-18, its turnover was Rs 18,283 crore and its profit Rs 3,322 crore

WHO GIVES A SHIT?

In a recent statement, the defence minister has contradicted the statement of Mr TS Raju, former CMD of HAL, and made disparaging remarks against HAL. Is it the intention of the government to privatise HAL or close down HAL?

I have given 10 (Shit) reasons (there are more) More shit? Oh *censored*... why the government should order an enquiry into the faecal matter? Over to the innocent Defence Minister.

Because that's how ministers are treated in India.

Rafale deal: P Chidambaram’s 10 reasons why Defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman should order an enquiry