MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 31 13.1%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 78.9%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.5%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • Total voters
    237
Building a Global Combat Air Systems (GCAS), Path to the FCAS

The second speaker entitled his presentation “Building a Global Combat Air Systems (GCAS), Path to the FCAS.”

In his presentation, this speaker provided an overview of the objectives, but spent most of his time focused on the key tasks necessary to get to the FCAS end point.

A number of air operational requirements were identified in the presentation as the launch point for the FCAS discussion.

  • Air superiority in a contested environment;
  • Height, speed, reach, payload and responsiveness of the system and the platforms to achieve air superiority;
  • More persistence
  • More weapons and larger range of effects
  • Better survivability (which could be collectively achieved rather than focusing on a particular platform)
  • Right mix of autonomous (i.e. onboard) versus collective capabilities
  • Connected and able to collect and share data
  • Data processing depending on needs and position in the system
  • European sovereignty
  • National caveats (national clouds and specific capabilities if needed)
  • Affordability versus numbers.
In his presentation he provided an overview of how he saw the FAF combat fleet evolution in light of the FCAS objective.

The first phase was from 2020-2030 where the focus was upon Rafale and Mirage modernization.

The fleet would be stabilized at 225 fighter aircraft for the FAF and the Navy.

Rafale upgrades would be provided to enhance connectivity, survivability, and new sensors and weapons.

The second phase from 2030-2040 would see the retirement of the Mirages and the FAF would have a Rafale fleet only.

In this period, modernization would continued with regard to new sensors, weapons and networking capabilities.

The Rafale would evolve (F-5.MLU) to continue its nuclear delivery role as well.

The third phase would be from 2040-2050 with the fielding of a new generation system.

FCAS/NGF initial deliveries would be made to start the Rafale replacement process.

Rafales would continue in service until 2060-ish.

The rest of the presentation focused on the air connectivity challenges and the need to deal with legacy approaches and to expand the envelope of working digital integration.

And at the heart of the FCAS is clearly what Generals Hostage and Deptula identified several years ago as the combat cloud. Information superiority is to be enabled through the combat cloud.

This means that much focus of research, development and combat improvement in the FAF over the next decade and beyond must be in this area, and the challenge identified in the first briefing or in the EAG’s work becomes a key one – working F-35 integration with the legacy fleet.

And such efforts, by definition become part of the FCAS as well.

The second speaker highlighted how he saw the GCAS network evolving and laying the foundation for FCAS: “Given the complexity and program cycles, we need to have an incremental approach.”

And here he provided what he identified as a connectivity roadmap.

From 2018 through 2025, he envisaged the creation of the network which is connected but limited in its full impact.

From 2025-through 2030 he saw a catch up imperative where a digitally ready FCAS system was being shaped.

From 2030 through 2040, a system architecture by design would be crafted and put in place as the laydown for the new fighter in the 2040s.

Put in other words, modernization of the legacy air combat fleet and the shaping of an evolving incremental network would be subsumed in a new architecture and a new fighter by the 2040s.

He concluded his presentation by identifying what he saw as the risks and opportunities of the FCAS approach with GCAS as the development and implementation path.

The key risks identified were as follows: an interoperability gap (4thand 5thgen); not being able to define international norms; lose a strong and capable aeronautical European industry; and to lose time.

The opportunities were identified as follows: operational gains; share/promote the connectivity concept at the joint force, industrial and allied levels and to develop cooperation.

In other words, for the FAF, it is about evolving the current fleet and modernizing the Rafale to remain a centerpiece of FAF airpower, but to do so in a way that provides building blocks to the FCAS and the Rafale replacement fighter.

And to do so, in the context of evolving airpower modernization in Europe and beyond by non-FCAS airpower players, including adversaries for that matter.

The featured graphic shows an Naval Group / Dassault Aviation image showing the NGF (next generation fighter) and a UCAS being launched from a conceptual aircraft carrier.

The International Fighter Conference is held by IQPC and next year’s conference will be also held in Berlin from November 12-14 2019 and if this year’s conference is anything to go by, it is highly recommended that persons interested in the evolution of the air combat force attend.

Although the focus is upon fighters, given the evolution combat, the scope is rapidly expanding to a discussion of operations in the integrated battlespace.

The French Air Force and FCAS: Perspectives from the International Fighter Conference 2018 - Second Line of Defense
 
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The Future Combat Air System: The View From Paris

11/26/2018


By Pierre Tran

Paris, November 26, 2018

The French government and industry are in negotiations for a budget to upgrade the Rafale fighter jet to an F4 standard of higher capability, and also funding for architecture and concept studies for a next-generation fighter, a source close to the talks said.

The planned Rafale F4 encountered “a major difference in the negotiations,” said the source, who declined to be identified.

A contract is due to be signed in December.

A benchmark for the F4 budget could be Britain’s £2 billion ($2.6 billion, €2.3 billion) funding for development of its Tempest future fighter.

France Leads FCAS Effort
France and Germany plan to sign early in the new year a contract for architecture and concept studies for a next-generation fighter jet to replace Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, the defense ministries of the two nations said Nov. 21 in a joint statement.

Dassault Aviation is prime contractor on the Rafale and will also lead on the successor fighter, which carries a project name of Next Generation Fighter.

Spain, which will join that fighter project, expects to see a share of industrial work, the source said.

Germany has agreed France will lead the fighter program.

That future fighter is effectively an attempt to maintain a European industrial capability in response to the arrival in Europe of the Lockheed Martin F-35.

“If we don’t do something, we’ll be toast,” said the source.

“It is a matter of timing.

“We need to define requirements, we need to launch the research contract to have a plane by 2040.”

The budget for the architecture and concept studies for the future fighter is estimated to be worth some tens of millions of euros.

Dassault and the French procurement office, Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA), declined comment on the budgets.

The F-4 Upgrade
Meanwhile, the planned Rafale F4 version will be equipped with a Multi-Function Array, combining radar, electronic warfare and communications.

Thales worked on the MFA in a feasibility study for the Future Combat Air System-Development Program.

Other F4 features include satellite communications, internet connectivity and armed with the MBDA Meteor very long-range, air-to-air missile and a midlife upgrade of the Mica air-to-air weapon.

There have been studies for the F4, with “several ideas on the table,” the source said.

The Rafale F4, along with a mid-life upgrade of 55 Mirage 2000D, will form the “legacy” fighter fleet for the French Air Force in an initial phase spanning 2020-2030.

In the 2030-40 period, a key feature will be the planned airborne nuclear-tipped missile dubbed Composant Nucléaire Aéroportée, successor to the ASMPA weapon.

For 2040 and thereafter, there will be a Next Generation Fighter (NGF) and legacy Rafale, with those aircraft flying in a system of systems, dubbed Future Combat Air System.

The Next Generation Fighter
France has signed a partnership agreement with Germany on the FCAS project.

Dassault displayed a reduced scale model of the NGF at the Euronaval trade show, held October 23-26.

The fact the model, which is not a definitive and final version, was shown at Euronaval signaled that the French version of the future fighter will fly from an aircraft carrier which will one day replace the Charles de Gaulle capital ship.

France and Germany signed April 26 at the ILA Berlin Airshow a cooperative agreement setting out high-level common requirements for a new fighter jet.

That pact paved the way for French and German officers to work on a government-to-government contract due to be signed in January, the source said, adding that Spain has taken part in the talks.

A task force, formed Jan. 1 and comprising the French Air Force and DGA, submitted its report to the office of President Emmanuel Macron in September, setting out the issues, technology and industrial road map.

Urgency is seen as the F-35 is arriving among European allies.

France is leading on the FCAS project, having agreed to German leadership on a future tank, dubbed Main Ground Combat System, and a planned European medium-altitude, long-endurance drone.

Since the summer, French and German officials have held talks to reach a detailed agreement on requirements and a common road map.

The plan is to launch the Franco-German fighter program in 2020.

France is keen to enlarge as much as possible its cooperation with Germany, beyond building a common fighter, and to agree to a broad concept of a Next Generation Weapon System.

The French Air Force, DGA, Dassault, MBDA, Safran and Thales are working together to study concept of operations, and research and technology.

Concept studies have been drawn up, drawing on DGA technology studies, lessons learnt on the Neuron demonstrator for an unmanned combat aerial vehicle, and work on the Future Combat Air System-Development Program conducted with the UK.

Those studies focus on missions and threats, pitching systems against systems rather than fighter against fighter.

A Team Approach to Air Combat Superiority
The concept is that the aircraft will work together, connected and exchanging information over an internet grid.

There will be manned, unmanned aircraft and “objects” flying in the skies, all hooked up on a network.

This focus on an overall system of system is seen as a different approach to the U.S. focus on an aircraft, the F-35, which is hooked up to other units through the network.

A key element of the French concept is a fleet of small drones, dubbed mules, flying ahead to detect and jam the enemy, and clear the way for the manned fighter.

The fighter jet will link up with satellites, AWACs spy aircraft, aircraft carrier, ground troops and command centers.

The planning is based on two conceptual circles, with the first circle comprising Rafale and next-generation fighter, future cruise missiles and future anti-ship missile, unmanned aerial vehicles, unmanned combat aerial vehicles, and “remote carriers,” which will be manned aircraft working with drones.

The second circle will include electronic warfare aircraft, AWACs and its successor, satellites, aircraft carrier task force, ground troops, and command and control centers both airborne and on the ground.

Hooking all these up will require a successor to the Link 16 communications network and the French Air Force is working on how to evolve the existing system to the next-generation FCAS, the source said.

The concept is to share tasks among the mix of aircraft so the fighter does not need to master every mission, the source said.

There will be high degree of stealth.

A British Role?
Meanwhile, the UK has announced its Tempest project for a future fighter, reflecting its air superiority requirement.

Tempest is intended to maintain British industry, said the source, adding that the announced £2 billion budget for development out to 2025 will not be enough.

Britain is expected eventually to be a partner on the Franco-German FCAS project.

“The door is never closed,” the source said.

Companies and FCAS
Airbus and Thales are reported to be competing to be system architect for FCAS, a key role in shaping the overall program.

France has invested a great deal in Thales, seen as a champion in connectivity and aeronautics, the source said. A formula will be found that satisfies the competing claims. “Each has its capability,” the source added. “Airbus will not lose out.”

Under French leadership, French and German companies have worked together with much effectiveness in the FCAS project, and presented to the authorities of the two nations their ambitions for FCAS, the French and German ministries said in the Nov. 21 joint statement.

The ministries have agreed that Airbus and Dassault will share leadership on a joint concept and architecture study for FCAS, with internet connectivity part of of the latter study, the ministries said. The two countries will sign that contract in early in 2019.

Contracts for studies for research and development, and demonstrators will be signed at the 2019 Paris Air Show, the ministries said.

French engine builder Safran will take the lead in developing the engines, with German MTU Aero Engines as subcontractor, business website La Tribune reported.

F-4 Technology as FCAS Building Block
Meanwhile, the DGA qualified Oct. 31 an F3-R standard for the Rafale, allowing the fighter to be armed with the Meteor very long-range, air-to-air missile, and carry the Thales Talios laser targeting pod, the procurement office said in a Nov. 8 statement.

The Meteor weapon will be hooked up with the active electronically scanned array RBE2 radar. The Talios pod aims to boost detection, recognition and identification of targets in day and night, seeking to deliver highly accurate air-to-ground strikes.

A laser-guided version of the Safran AASM powered smart bomb will also arm the F3-R, Dassault said in a statement.

Upgrades of the 144-strong Rafale fleet to F3-R began in October, with a first batch of 10 F3-R aircraft to go to the Air Force and Navy for operational trials, the DGA said.

Four of those units will be delivered by the end of this year.

French export sales of the Rafale to Egypt, Qatar and India are based on the F3-R standard.

Work on the F3-R standard drew on operational experience, particularly for fitting the AASM, the DGA said.

Interoperability and regulatory requirements were also factored in. Dassault, Thales, MBDA and Safran signed in 2014 the contract for F3-R, on a budget of some €1 billion.

“The Rafale continuous improvement approach is now looking to the F4 standard, development of which should begin soon, after completion of the ongoing feasibility studies,” Dassault said.

“This future standard will notably improve the connectivity of the Rafale and its ability to operate as part of a network.”

Technology in the F4 is seen as a building brick for the FCAS project.

The UK suspended the bilateral FCAS-DP project with France due to uncertainty over Brexit, Britain’s departure from the European Union on March 29, 2019.

The Rafale photo is credited to DASSAULT AVIATION – S. RANDÉ

The Future Combat Air System: The View From Paris - Second Line of Defense
 
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P.S. will be interesting to see if the EF will be able to show P4E capabilities, since that might come before the F4 as well.

=>

SPEAR3 — FLEXIBILITY AND AN ALMIGHTY PUNCH


...The integration process is moving at pace. SPEAR3 underwent its first test firing from a Eurofighter at Aberporth in Wales in March 2016 and was placed on contract later the same year. The development phase is due to be completed in early 2020, with an in-service date anticipated in the early 2020s.

Powered by a turbojet engine, SPEAR3 has the beyond-horizon reach — something in the order of about 140 kilometres — to ensure that the aircraft remains safely away from hostile air defence units. Impressive stand-off capability is one key feature, but SPEAR3 is also equipped with the latest generation multi-mode sensor seeker, providing increased flexibility in the kind of complex scenarios commonly envisaged in the future battlespace. It’s designed to be effective against air defence units, ballistic missile launchers, hardened structures, fast-moving and manoeuvring vehicles, main battle tanks, armoured personnel carriers and naval vessels. ...
SPEAR3 — FLEXIBILITY AND AN ALMIGHTY PUNCH
 

Recap

Spear Missile Fired From Eurofighter Typhoon As Future Capability Development Continues
Press Release | Jul 12, 2016

...

Eurofighter Typhoon | Spear Missile Fired From Eurofighter Typhoon As Future Capability Development Continues


GBU 16 (1000lb LGB)
GBU 10 (2000lb LGB)
Paveway 4 / GBU 48 (500lb LGB)
Brimstone (107lb ATGM)
Storm Shadow (2900lb cruise missile)
Spear 3 (220lb PGM)

And people still believe, that it's only an air superiority fighter. 😅
 
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Littel reminder, Nederlands a few years ago...

AvionJSFAnalysMd-Nrc080909-copie-1[1].jpg
 
Kinda strange that in MMRCA 1.0, Rafale was the mature fighter, that was fully developed and available, while Gripen E, Mig 35, or the EF, were still under development or only available on paper.
It will be the same for MMRCA II: Indian version of Rafale will be fully developped and available, while Indian version of Gripen E, Mig 35 or EF will be only available on paper. :giggle:
 
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It will be the same for MMRCA II: Indian version of Rafale will be fully developped and available, while Indian version of Gripen E, Mig 35 or EF will be only available on paper. :giggle:

😁 Cute that you now put your hope on the "Indian Version" of the poor F3R, rather than on the F4, the only fighter that is a paper plane now, while all other competitors, are already in production.
 
😁 Cute that you now put your hope on the "Indian Version" of the poor F3R, rather than on the F4, the only fighter that is a paper plane now, while all other competitors, are already in production.
F3R is operational with AESA, Meteor (available after Gripen but before Gripen E and EF) and Talios. F4 is in development as is EF with AESA and Gripen E, Indian version of F3R is in production contrary to Gripen E and EF with AESA. Specific Indian development will be immediately available on F4, and F3R is not a poor version, Gripen and EF would like to have its features already (Storm shadow for example) :giggle:
 
F3R is operational with AESA, Meteor (available after Gripen but before Gripen E and EF)

=>



Operational Service of Meteor
1. Sweden - Gripen C/D
2. UK - EF
3. France - Rafale


F4 is in development as is EF with AESA and Gripen E

Wrong, F4 is in development, just as EF P4E, while the T3B with AESA for Kuwait is already in production, just as F3R for Qatar or India.


Specific Indian development will be immediately available on F4

Good for the F4, the only problem is, that most of the ISE are already available on Gripen E or EF (HMS, Litening, TD/EAD, low band jammer...

But again, it's fun to see you admitting to the truth now, although unwillingly...

...Rafale F4 is too far away to be proposed to India in MMRCA 2.0
...Rafale F3R in standard config is too weak to be useful for India
...only Rafale with ISE is available and is the only solution for now, even if it doesn't offer anything new
 
But again, it's fun to see you admitting to the truth now, although unwillingly...

...Rafale F4 is too far away to be proposed to India in MMRCA 2.0
...Rafale F3R in standard config is too weak to be useful for India
...only Rafale with ISE is available and is the only solution for now, even if it doesn't offer anything new

please don't put things in my mouth that I didn't say.
  • Of course, it is the Rafale F4 that will be offered to India when the RFP is released, but to carry out evaluation tests, Dassault will be able to rely on the Indian version of the Rafale, which will meet all the RFP conditions, while its competitors will only be able to offer paper aircraft.
  • F3R is a version as advanced as the Indian version but which does not exactly correspond to the need expressed by India for example it has Talios which is better than litening but it is litening that the Indians want then why we would deprive ourselves of presenting the version which corresponds best to the Indian needs?
  • If you think that the Rafale with ISEs doesn't offer anything new, I think €1.8 billion for the development of this version, that is twice the price of F3R, it's a little too much money paid.
 
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Wrong, F4 is in development, just as EF P4E, while the T3B with AESA for Kuwait is already in production, just as F3R for Qatar or India.
Except that AESA will be available to morrow since 10 years :D

Anyway, it doesn't matter what you think, the Rafale will win the tender with flying colours.
 
please don't put things in my mouth that I didn't say.

Of course you didn't outright say it, but you obviously changed your mind in the last few weeks, since your earlier point was that F4 will be proposed and now it's just the Indian version.


  • F3R is a version as advanced as the Indian version
That's wrong as you know very well and simply provable, by the capability difference of an F3R in French forces and the one in IAF.
Will French AF have HMS? A 2000lb PGM, possibly also a 250lb PGM? TD or other EW enhancements? Even the claim that Talios is better, is highly doubtful, because IAF would never chose inferior equipment and pay even extra for the integration.

  • If you think that the Rafale with ISEs doesn't offer anything new
It doesn't offer anything new in the MMRCA proposal! That's why I said, there won't be a need for Rafale trials, since all capabilities that can be proposed and tested, will already be procured in the Rafales IAF bought. While the competition added new capabilities, that were not aviable in their past offers. EF for example can not only showcase the centurion upgrade, but also SPEAR 3 and possibly even the first EW enhancements that now getting contracted for RAF for example. I'm still waiting for a confirmation on statements from Farnborough, about Marte ER, of if some of the capabilities showcased at ILA 2018 (SPICE 250, AARGM, 1800l supersonic fuel tanks) will actually be contracted, but there is more coming for the EF and sooner than the Rafale F4.
Not to mention that Mig 35, F18 B3 and Gripen E all operational by 2019/20, will add new stuff too.

So Rafale has to impress with what it has, while the competition can impress with more new stuff.