MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[A Person]

There is no rumours it's a fact the typhoon holds bigger amount of trm modules

The Typhoon, as of right now, holds exactly one TRM, because it's a classical radar. AESA radars are arrays of "mini-radars".

Now, here's some food for thought: you know the property of a cone is that it's smaller as you get farther away from its base, right? So if you need a bigger diameter, you can make a bigger nose, or you can make a thinner radar. That's where cooling technology enters the picture. Radars generate a lot of heat, and if you don't want them to self-destruct by melting, you've gotta cool them continually. The cooling system takes a lot of volume, in addition to the volume of the radar plate itself. And of course, it needs to be just next to the radar plate, it can't cool it from the other end of the aircraft.

If you go for a big gizmo with a mechanical system to change your antenna's position, you're wasting a lot of volume and negating the advantage of your bigger nose. But that's not all: you still need your dish to have room for pivoting, so you're wasting even more volume for this. The result is that the fabled CAPTOR-E, if and when it actually happens, will not have more TRMs than the RBE2. The RBE2 is already at over a thousand TRMs, by the way.

even the f16 apg 80 holds more trm modules.

And that radar is comparable in performances to the RBE2 PESA... As seen is exercises with the F-16 bk. 60 of the United Arab Emirates. That makes them greatly inferior to the RBE2 AESA, whose range is double that of the RBE2 AESA.

On that topic, it may be interesting to recall an anecdote. The first RBE2 AESA prototype was made with American TRMs. From the performances of this prototype, it was expected the RBE2 AESA would be 50% more powerful. But when actual RBE2 AESAs were made with French TRMs, the performance gain was not +50% but +100%. Does that mean that the USA sent downgraded elements deliberately, perhaps fearing industrial espionage, or does that mean that American technology isn't all that it's cracked up to be? That's not a question that can be answered with certainty, at least on public forums, given how all this sensitive stuff is classified.

 

[Bon Plan]

Well whatever aesa the eurogroup was claiming has more range than the rafale. And is expected to be on par with fifth gen fighter radars. The pesa captor had a huge range and the mk 1 aesa radar of the eurofighter is said to be on par when it comes to range along with the advantages of aesa. The qataris are already getting them as well as the Brits who have paid bae for some different aesa . Then you have Germans and the rest wanting a different aesa. The eurofighter program is a clusterfuck but at its present stage it does have superior engine and maybe radar to the rafale apart from that it's a failure.

There is no PESA captor.
Captor is mecanically steering antenna. And AESA is at best on test, nearly 10 years late on RBE2 AESA.
So how to compare range between a mature radar, using 10 years feedback of AESA and >10 more years on PESA with a newbie radar? JUST IMPOSSIBLE. Just marketing.

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1229304113743065089

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - Part 2.

 

[screambowl]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1229304113743065089

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - Part 2.

Yeah good, in return they will give admission to kids of these officers in foreign universities

 

[Bon Plan]

If that's the case it would be better we select f15x in the mmrca and wait for the 4.2 to get online

A logistical new nightmare for IAF....

 

[randomradio]

Humans are amazing.

What's up?

 

[randomradio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1229304113743065089

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - Part 2.

The Su-30 case wouldn't apply here. What Rawat has suggested has actually never been done in India, and it's extremely difficult to do it as well, considering our bureaucracy. In order for tranche based orders to succeed, negotiations have to be done individually for every tranche, that's the only way new advancements can be added into the following tranches. This is obviously the best method, but good luck managing it. This can actually be done with indigenously designed and developed products, not foreign imports. Kinda like how HAL upgraded Jaguar's radar to AESA without IAF involvement, or what HAL did with LCA Mk1A, where all MoD had to do was accept HAL's recommendations.

Anyway, Rawat's statement was wrong considering any MKI or Rafale purchase happens over a decade or more, so only the initial lot of aircraft become unavailable due to MLUs. With large fleet purchases, less than 10% of the total fleet will undergo MLU at a time anyway.

 

[randomradio]

ROFLMAO!!!

There won't be MMRCA. Rafale will be bought in tranches. The next batch of 36 Rafale is back on again.

 

[vstol Jockey]

ROFLMAO!!!

There won't be MMRCA. Rafale will be bought in tranches. The next batch of 36 Rafale is back on again.

with many parts being manufactured in India in Nagpur by DRAL and Bangalore by HAL

 

[_Anonymous_]

ROFLMAO!!!

There won't be MMRCA. Rafale will be bought in tranches. The next batch of 36 Rafale is back on again.

Sometimes I wonder if you actually keep track of all the verbal acrobatics you indulge in. Pls observe #1447 & #1448.

Now, many regular members here will vouch for the fact that you were a staunch advocate of importing the second tranche given your theory that the definitive version of the Rafale will materialize only in 2024-25 timelines which would also be around the time the winner of MMRCA-2.0 would be declared given our penchant for bureaucracy. Yet, you post what you did in #1447.

 

[randomradio]

Sometimes I wonder if you actually keep track of all the verbal acrobatics you indulge in. Pls observe #1447 & #1448.

Whoa, what's wrong with what I said?

In 1447 I was being specific about what Rawat said. He said that if all the stuff is bought at once, they will all need to be upgraded at once in the future, but I said that's plain wrong due to the obvious fact that large purchases happen over many years. Nothing more. Other than that I'm entirely in favour of tranche purchases, which I have said many times over many years, including in post 1447--

"This is obviously the best method"

Now, many regular members here will vouch for the fact that you were a staunch advocate of importing the second tranche given your theory that the definitive version of the Rafale will materialize only in 2024-25 timelines which would also be around the time the winner of MMRCA-2.0 would be declared given our penchant for bureaucracy. Yet, you post what you did in #1447.

In this new deal, the second tranche will be signed after all the first tranche Rafales are delivered. So the immediate order, by 2020-21, that I earlier supported has been dead for quite sometime now. And this second order was only to take care of the window between the end of delivery of first tranche and MMRCA jets.

The new deal is going to be completely different. We will likely not even see MII, only some parts of Rafales will be made in India at DRAL and HAL, as Vstol pointed out above. Meaning, the govt won't insist on license production, but if Dassault sees value in producing Rafales in India, that will be their prerogative.

This is the only way, according to Rawat, that we can afford enough Rafales. This news is fresh as of today morning. And you can't blame me because it's the MoD that has changed their minds repeatedly.

So we have the current Rafale deal, this will be followed by another batch of 36 by 2023-24 or so, followed by another sometime by 2030, and so on. Basically they will work out a system that will allow the induction of 11 jets per year until requirements are fulfilled.
@Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan @A Person @halloweene @BMD

Check post 1448.

with many parts being manufactured in India in Nagpur by DRAL and Bangalore by HAL

But it will be interesting to see what Dassault will do if they get an order of 57 from the navy as well as the second tranche of 36. It's enough to justify a production line in order to fulfill the offsets obligation for both deals.

 

[Gautam]

HAL back on Rafale Radar, talks on for making jets in India

French aircraft manufacturer Dassault and state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited have worked most recently on $2.1 b deal to upgrade IAF’s Mirage 2000 fleet. General Rawat has spoken of staggered purchases of fighter jets in the future, his idea being that small batches would be ordered to ensure that allocated funds can cover the price

By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Last Updated: Feb 18, 2020, 02.45 PM IST

NEW DELHI: French aircraft manufacturer Dassault and state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are in talks for possible cooperation in producing Rafale fighter jets in India for additional anticipated orders under a ‘staggered procurement’ plan.

Sources have told Economic Times that a few rounds of discussions have taken place between the companies on possible work share for additional orders of the cutting edge combat jet, though there is no going back to earlier discussions that broke down in 2012 over differences in localisation and pricing.

The two aviation companies are old partners, having worked most recently on the $2.1 billion deal to upgrade the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000 fleet. If additional orders are placed for Rafale — Chief of Defence Staff Gen Bipin Rawat hinted recently that 36 more fighter jets could be ordered within four years — a work share model could be worked out to manufacture parts for the fighter jet at HAL facilities.

At present, French manufacturers are executing the order for 36 jets and investing 50% of the €7.8 billion contract price in the Indian aerospace and defence sectors as part of the offsets clause, with a factory in partnership with Reliance Defence at Nagpur also geared to produce the Falcon executive jets.

While the contours of a possible partnership have not been finalised, sources confirmed that detailed discussions have taken place on how HAL facilities and expertise could be used for the next round of localisation when more jets are ordered.

In several comments over the past weeks, General Rawat has spoken of staggered purchases of fighter jets in the future, his idea being that small batches would be ordered to ensure that allocated funds can cover the price. The top officer also suggested that 36 more Rafales could be ordered in three to four years to make up for gaps in fighter squadron strength.

The current batch of Rafales on order are following the ‘staggered payments’ model, with India paying for 11 fighter jets every year till deliveries end. If the contract is extended, the staggered procurement could stretch over the next few years to make up for fighter shortages.

As reported by ET, an offer is on the table for the sale of two more squadrons, which means 36 additional Rafale jets, for the IAF. While the deal for 36 Rafale jets signed in 2016 cost €7.87 billion, the additional 36 aircraft could cost significantly lower at around €6 billion as fixed costs covering India specific enhancements, training equipment and infrastructure have already been made.

The two airbases that are being created for the Rafales on order are capable of absorbing additional jets without any change, which would also bring down the cost of the deal. If the Rafale jet deal is extended with the ‘staggered order approach’ it could lead to a rethink on earlier plans of acquiring 110 fighter jets under the Strategic Partnership (SP) model that requires an Indian company to tie up with a foreign collaborates to produce the aircraft domestically.

HAL back on Rafale Radar, talks on for making jets in India

 

[Bon Plan]

So we have the current Rafale deal, this will be followed by another batch of 36 by 2023-24 or so, followed by another sometime by 2030, and so on. Basically they will work out a system that will allow the induction of 11 jets per year until requirements are fulfilled.
@Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan @A Person @halloweene @BMD

A second deal inked in 2023/2024 or for delivery beginning in 2023/2024 ?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[randomradio]

A second deal inked in 2023/2024 or for delivery beginning in 2023/2024 ?

Inked in 2023-24. Right now there's not enough money considering the priority for the army's modernisation. Plus the IAF will be getting 83 LCAs during this time, plus the deals for 21 Mig-29 and 12 Su-30MKI.

Between 2025 and 2030, there will be a window during which time IAF is not earmarked to get anything, that's when the next batch of 36 Rafales will come in. During this time IAF will also get a second batch of S-400s and also the MWF.

 

[screambowl]

Are we going to develop anything by ourselves or not? Past 3 decades we have been trying to fix Tejasva to fit into new generation fighter. I don't think Indian engineers and scientists have capability to develop something like Rafael or F-35. And the GOI knows this therefore every decade we end up doing MMRCA1,2,3.
Nor we have budget, the amount of money we spent on Tejasva is just fraction of fighter developments programs in other countries. Chaos all over defence production. People not taking thing seriously. Neither the Airforce.
Thukwa k atey hai phir Kashmir mein PAF k hatho. Badi badi procurement karwa lo inse.

 

[randomradio]

Are we going to develop anything by ourselves or not? Past 3 decades we have been trying to fix Tejasva to fit into new generation fighter. I don't think Indian engineers and scientists have capability to develop something like Rafael or F-35. And the GOI knows this therefore every decade we end up doing MMRCA1,2,3.

MWF is coming up, it's a Gripen E/F-21 equivalent. There will also be TEDBF, which is a Rafale/Typhoon equivalent. Then AMCA, which is superior in design to both Rafale and F-35, will be more advanced than the F-22, and will be entering FSED phase soon.

Nor we have budget, the amount of money we spent on Tejasva is just fraction of fighter developments programs in other countries. Chaos all over defence production. People not taking thing seriously. Neither the Airforce.
Thukwa k atey hai phir Kashmir mein PAF k hatho. Badi badi procurement karwa lo inse.

We are spending enough money. Even more money will be spent in the future obviously, but lack of money hasn't been a problem for indigenous development.

Kashmir ki chinta mat kijiye. Aapko kahani bolenge toh bhi nahi samhjenge.

 

[screambowl]

MWF is coming up, it's a Gripen E/F-21 equivalent. There will also be TEDBF, which is a Rafale/Typhoon equivalent.

How could we know that it is equivalent? It's still at very early stages and will require another 5-10 years to get 1st FOC and that too without our own engine technology. Our success in the turbine propulsion technology is very primitive, as we lack ore and material to develop crystal blades and some other alloys. The design seems to be similar to Gripen but unless until it's a proven technology India can't rely on it. Airforce will simply make excuses. And the whole project will get delayed by 2 decades.

 

[randomradio]

How could we know that it is equivalent? It's still at very early stages and will require another 5-10 years to get 1st FOC and that too without our own engine technology.

Because the performance specs are as good or better than Gripen E and avionics specs are better than Gripen E.

Our success in the turbine propulsion technology is very primitive, as we lack ore and material to develop crystal blades and some other alloys. The design seems to be similar to Gripen but unless until it's a proven technology India can't rely on it. Airforce will simply make excuses. And the whole project will get delayed by 2 decades.

Both Gripen E and MWF use the same engine. And ADA has been able to design an equivalent or better aircraft as the Gripen E using the same engine.

And you have no idea about our own engine tech, so there's no point discussing it.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Kashmir ki chinta mat kijiye. Aapko kahani bolenge toh bhi nahi samhjenge.

Kaunsi KAHANI

Hamey bhi Sunaiye