MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

The only plane India could ever purchase from America is the F-35. The SH-18 and F-15 is a joke offer compared to the Rafale given the 2 billionish they spent on India modifications and already having 32.

Yeah, the advantage is with Rafale due to the earlier deal. But even if it wasn't for the deal, the SH and F-15 have a whole host of other problems that the F-35 doesn't.

The foremost being the SH and F-15 will not receive the kind of funding after 2045 that the IAF will expect for MLU. And there's a good chance the IAF will be expected to pay for the continued development of the jet. Even in the USAF, the F-15 received some upgrade funding only because the F-22 program stalled, and a lot of the more recent funding for the development of the F-15X came from outside the US, mainly Saudi Arabia, also orders from Japan. The SH will also not get the required funding post 2050. This is one of the main reasons why both SH and F-16 were rejected. All the teens are now senior citizens.

Otoh, the French have planned a Rafale F5 and even an F6, meaning they have a pretty long procurement plan that will outlast the IAF's procurement plan. So further development is practically assured, the same as the F-35.

Anyway, what our previous air chief said a few days ago--
Pakistan’s version on F-16 a facade, says former IAF chief BS Dhanoa
We evaluated the two US-made fighters and rejected them. Only Rafale and Eurofighter met the operational requirements. The American aircraft are good, but those are the F-35 and F-22.

 

[Bon Plan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1227555144818053120

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA

after F16, F21, SH18, now F15 !
Next step will be F22 ?

F 15EX has the best aesa among all the competitors followed by typhoon and rafale.

Typhoon has no AESA radar so far. Only mock up. Only technological developpment. Nothing operationnal YET.
Maybe next year. Or 2022, or....

 

[Sathya]

Bye-Bye to Super Hornet: US Navy Cuts F/A-18E/F Production to Develop its Sixth Generation Combat Aircraft - The Aviation Geek Club

@Falcon Still F18 has chance or any new update s?

 

[randomradio]

Bye-Bye to Super Hornet: US Navy Cuts F/A-18E/F Production to Develop its Sixth Generation Combat Aircraft - The Aviation Geek Club

@Falcon Still F18 has chance or any new update s?

In 2019, a report from the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments said, in order for a future carrier air wing to be effective in a major conflict with China, it would need to field a combatant that could fly sustained combat air patrols up to 1,000 nautical miles from the carrier.

This is something the IN needs as well.

Only the Russians with the PAK FA will be able to manage such long range patrols.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

India begins manufacturing parts for Rafale fighter jets in Nagpur
Nagpur facility, joint venture of Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence & French firm Dassault Aviation, initially meant to make parts of only Falcon business gets.

New Delhi: In a first, India has started manufacturing parts for Rafale, some of which could even be used on the 36 French fighter jets ordered by the Narendra Modi government in 2016.

The first set of doors that cover the twin engines of the fighter jets has come out of the Nagpur facility, which is a joint venture of Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence and French firm Dassault Aviation.

“We are seeing India has one of the drivers of the Dassault Aviation products. Be it the Falcon business jet or now the Rafale, every product in the future will have an Indian connection,” an official of the French defence major told ThePrint.

Defence sources said the idea is to scale up production of Rafale parts in the coming months.

Asked if the doors will be fitted on board the Indian Rafale fighter jets, another company official said, “It is a may or may not be. It all depends on the rate of production and the quantity of parts available back in France. But the parts manufactured in Nagpur will go up on the Rafale for sure.”

First 4 Rafale jets expected to arrive in May
The first four Rafale jets are expected to arrive in India in May. While one squadron of the Rafale fighter jets will be based in Ambala, the other would be in Hasimara, West Bengal.

Industry sources said that what works for foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers is that production in India helps them to meet offset obligations and also to procure materials and products at a much lower rate since the labour cost is less in the country.

The Nagpur facility of Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) was initially making only cockpits for the French manufacturer’s Falcon business jets, besides other parts.

The facility was only meant to manufacture components for Falcon jets and not for the Rafale jets.

But in June 2019, ThePrint had reported that Dassault Aviation is likely to start manufacturing components of the Rafale fighter jets at its India facility, with the wares destined for global customers.

Dassault and Reliance announced their joint venture and the creation of DRAL on 3 October 2016, barely two weeks after India signed a 7.878 billion euro deal for 36 Rafale jets in a flyaway condition.

The DRAL facility was inaugurated in October 2017, in the presence of Dassault CEO Eric Trappier and Anil Ambani.

 

[Sathya]

In 2019, a report from the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments said, in order for a future carrier air wing to be effective in a major conflict with China, it would need to field a combatant that could fly sustained combat air patrols up to 1,000 nautical miles from the carrier.

This is something the IN needs as well.

Only the Russians with the PAK FA will be able to manage such long range patrols.

Naval Pak Fa planned ?

 

[randomradio]

Naval Pak Fa planned ?

Yes. But it will be a reality only if the Russians plan on making their next carrier.

The Russian Navy is known to operate air force version as well, so the same can be repeated with PAK FA.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Only the Russians with the PAK FA will be able to manage such long range patrols.

Combat range:

1,850 km (1,150 mi, 1,000 nmi) on penetration mission with two CFTs (2,300 L), three tanks (5,700 L), two SCALP-EG and two MICA AAMs.

Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia

 

[randomradio]

Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia

The article seems to be referring to internal fuel, since SH's combat radius is given as 500Nm. Rafale should be the same. With both jets being inferior to the F-35's combat radius.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The article seems to be referring to internal fuel, since SH's combat radius is given as 500Nm. Rafale should be the same. With both jets being inferior to the F-35's combat radius.

You are very optimistic on the performance of F18!
Combat radius specification: 390 Nm

Interdiction with four 1,000 lb bombs, two Sidewinders,
and two 1,818 liter (480 U.S. gallon: 400 Imp gallon) external tanks,
navigation FLIR and targeting FLIR: Forward Looking Infra-Red
hi-lo-lo-hi​

F18 Aerodynamic is very poor !!!
https://web.archive.org/web/2011102.../programs/ssp/man/uswpns/air/fighter/f18.html

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Rand corporation trying to understand Dassault!
A Dassault Dossier: Aircraft Acquisition in France

Avions Marcel Dassault is a very small company. Yet in the last two decades, it has provided nearly the entire combat aircraft complement of the French Air Force and exported high performance aircraft at prices lower than the competition. Dassault differs from most western contemporaries in emphasizing development rather than production; in uniquely European employment and personnel practices; in commitment to prototype development; and in preference for gradual, incremental, and evolutionary design. Dassault's special qualities appear to be attributable to its company policies, astute management, Marcel Dassault's influence, and a reconciliation of low risk technology and design simplicity with high performance. Basic Dassault policies could be adopted in the United States with potentially great advantage in cost and with long term benefits for stability in the U.S. aircraft industry.

 

[Abingdonboy]

So reading between the lines from the recent CDS remarks- the follow on Rafales that we have been saying since day 1 will come are all but assured.


MMRCA 2.0 is about as dead as it can get but let's just watch this circus continue for a while longer

India begins manufacturing parts for Rafale fighter jets in Nagpur
Nagpur facility, joint venture of Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence & French firm Dassault Aviation, initially meant to make parts of only Falcon business gets.

New Delhi: In a first, India has started manufacturing parts for Rafale, some of which could even be used on the 36 French fighter jets ordered by the Narendra Modi government in 2016.

The first set of doors that cover the twin engines of the fighter jets has come out of the Nagpur facility, which is a joint venture of Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence and French firm Dassault Aviation.

“We are seeing India has one of the drivers of the Dassault Aviation products. Be it the Falcon business jet or now the Rafale, every product in the future will have an Indian connection,” an official of the French defence major told ThePrint.

Defence sources said the idea is to scale up production of Rafale parts in the coming months.

Asked if the doors will be fitted on board the Indian Rafale fighter jets, another company official said, “It is a may or may not be. It all depends on the rate of production and the quantity of parts available back in France. But the parts manufactured in Nagpur will go up on the Rafale for sure.”

First 4 Rafale jets expected to arrive in May
The first four Rafale jets are expected to arrive in India in May. While one squadron of the Rafale fighter jets will be based in Ambala, the other would be in Hasimara, West Bengal.

Industry sources said that what works for foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers is that production in India helps them to meet offset obligations and also to procure materials and products at a much lower rate since the labour cost is less in the country.

The Nagpur facility of Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) was initially making only cockpits for the French manufacturer’s Falcon business jets, besides other parts.

The facility was only meant to manufacture components for Falcon jets and not for the Rafale jets.

But in June 2019, ThePrint had reported that Dassault Aviation is likely to start manufacturing components of the Rafale fighter jets at its India facility, with the wares destined for global customers.

Dassault and Reliance announced their joint venture and the creation of DRAL on 3 October 2016, barely two weeks after India signed a 7.878 billion euro deal for 36 Rafale jets in a flyaway condition.

The DRAL facility was inaugurated in October 2017, in the presence of Dassault CEO Eric Trappier and Anil Ambani.

Only really looking forward to seeing then roll out a fully built Falcon to be honest (they will never make a Rafale we know that)


But these success stories of DRAL do need to be hyped, we know how badly vested interests have demonised this JV.

 

[A Person]

What India really want is F 35

The only plane India could ever purchase from America is the F-35.

Yeah, about that...

Russian S-400 missile delivery to India by end of 2021: Official
US removing Turkey from F-35 program after its Russian missile defense purchase

So, will 2+2 be equal to 5?

 

[randomradio]

You are very optimistic on the performance of F18!
Combat radius specification: 390 Nm

Interdiction with four 1,000 lb bombs, two Sidewinders,​

and two 1,818 liter (480 U.S. gallon: 400 Imp gallon) external tanks,​

navigation FLIR and targeting FLIR: Forward Looking Infra-Red​

hi-lo-lo-hi​

F18 Aerodynamic is very poor !!!
Federation of American Scientists :: F/A-18 Hornet

That's for an interdiction mission, totally different from CAP. In the same configuration, Rafale also shouldn't be any different.

Granted that the SH doesn't have the best aerodynamics, but it still carries 6.7T of fuel internally. The fuel fraction is only slightly lower than Rafale's.

Even Dassault gives SH 800Nm against Rafale's 920Nm.

Anyway, neither aircraft can give 1000Nm on internal fuel for CAP. The only aircraft designed for this are YF-23 (4500 Km range) and PAK FA (4000-5000Km), and both need next gen engines as planned. Rafale and SH are both ~2500Km range class. FCAS's NGF may be able to achieve this range or more. USAF's F-X is also expected to do the same or more.

 

[randomradio]

So reading between the lines from the recent CDS remarks- the follow on Rafales that we have been saying since day 1 will come are all but assured.

Hey, welcome back.

I have a different take on that. The problem is that of time and priorities. The window between signing up for a new deal for 36 and the closure of MMRCA is now fast approaching. And in the meantime, the 36 Rafales will instead buy other stuff of greater importance to the army and navy. And then there's also the MRCBF tender coming up. You can blame the poor performance of our economy this year.

Another argument made is IAF will be inducting 83 more LCAs, 12 MKIs and 21 Mig-29s before MMRCA begins delivery, so the IAF is well set on inducting as many as 150+ jets by then, hence "SSNs are of greater priority than 36 more Rafales".

MMRCA 2.0 is about as dead as it can get but let's just watch this circus continue for a while longer

Unfortunately, no. GoI planned to sign a GTG for 90 Rafales a few years ago, but backtracked due to the opposition's corruption allegations. A tender is seen to be less politically risky. GoI wants to milk the geopolitical advantages through a long tender as well.

Only really looking forward to seeing then roll out a fully built Falcon to be honest (they will never make a Rafale we know that)

There's the MRCBF.

But these success stories of DRAL do need to be hyped, we know how badly vested interests have demonised this JV.

I agree, but we need a full flying aircraft coming out of DRAL in 2022 in order to be able to do that. But I do hope they advertise the hell out of this facility. This will be India's first made in India business jet after all.

 

[randomradio]

Yeah, about that...

Russian S-400 missile delivery to India by end of 2021: Official
US removing Turkey from F-35 program after its Russian missile defense purchase

So, will 2+2 be equal to 5?

I don't think it will be the same since any Indian F-35 will be carrying Indian comm, datalinks etc, probably the same as the Israeli F-35I. Perhaps even a customised radar. An F-35MKI, if you will.

Whereas Turkey is a NATO member and their equipment is the same as what the rest of NATO uses. So it's not equal risk.

Also I think all of this is just politics, in order to prevent a NATO member from buying Russian equipment, more likely unique to Turkey only, since the US had also prevented the sale of Patriots earlier.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

That's for an interdiction mission, totally different from CAP. In the same configuration, Rafale also shouldn't be any different.

Granted that the SH doesn't have the best aerodynamics, but it still carries 6.7T of fuel internally. The fuel fraction is only slightly lower than Rafale's.

Even Dassault gives SH 800Nm against Rafale's 920Nm.

In the same configuration with two external Tank, Rafale will have much more Range than 390 NM
Yes it have 6.7 t of fuel internally but it need F414 with a thrust of 9.7t instead of M 88 of 7.5 t so with the same specific consumtion it will use more fuel and 6.7/9.7 = 0.69 compare to 4.7/7.5 = 0.63 There is not so much difference, less than the aerodynamic difference.
Dassault use the official data to fight against Gripen, but the real data is that the F-18 E/F have only a marginal improvement in range compare to F-18 C/D instead of the 40% hope at the start of the project!

 

[Aniruddha]

Any idea when MMRCA 2.0 will be signed or the 90 Rafale G2G deal as stated by @randomradio will be signed??

 

[_Anonymous_]

Former Swedish Air Force Flight Engineer explains how the Saab Gripen can Dogfight and Win Against (Almost) Any Dissimilar Aircraft - The Aviation Geek Club

@Picdelamirand-oil

 

[randomradio]

In the same configuration with two external Tank, Rafale will have much more Range than 390 NM
Yes it have 6.7 t of fuel internally but it need F414 with a thrust of 9.7t instead of M 88 of 7.5 t so with the same specific consumtion it will use more fuel and 6.7/9.7 = 0.69 compare to 4.7/7.5 = 0.63 There is not so much difference, less than the aerodynamic difference.
Dassault use the official data to fight against Gripen, but the real data is that the F-18 E/F have only a marginal improvement in range compare to F-18 C/D instead of the 40% hope at the start of the project!

You are referring to small differences though. Based on what Dassault itself has advertised for the CAP role, Rafale has a radius of 920Nm and SH has a radius of 800Nm. That's a difference of just 120Nm.

Granted, in order to meet Rafale's standards with 3 drop tanks, SH will need 2 CFTs as well as 3 drop tanks. So Rafale is more fuel efficient and SH's fuel fraction is not impressive. But SH can meet Rafale's standards anyway, due to the use of 2 additional CFTs. Overall, the combat radius for CAP is more or less the same. Do note that I'm not considering Rafale's CFTs since it's not operational.

Any idea when MMRCA 2.0 will be signed or the 90 Rafale G2G deal as stated by @randomradio will be signed??

My estimate is MMRCA will be signed either in 2023 or 2025. I'm leaning on the latter date.

90 jet deal is dead. That's why there's MMRCA 2.0.