MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 31 13.1%

  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 78.9%

  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%

  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.5%

  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Total voters
    237
lcafanboy said:
So here we go on a decade ritual of TROLLING SPREE again....😁😁😂😂
Nice way of putting Uncle Sam, France, Russia, Britshits on back foot and toe in line with India's interest at UN and other international organisations, like supporting India's entry into UN security council, keep their eyes closed while we whoop backside of Pakistan, etc....😉😉😉
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It will only last 5 years though. Until the deal is signed.
 
"We are in the process of finalising the contract for 83 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark 1 A, which are advanced fighters to meet the urgent needs of India,"
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Alright, now I know this whatever deal is for 200 or 400 fighters is not going to happen for another 20 years.
 
Saaho said:
Alright, now I know this whatever deal is for 200 or 400 fighters is not going to happen for another 20 years.
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83 local maal > tejas + roughly 200 = 283.

Local maal comes 8-16 per year this means take 8 years average.
Foreign maal, most probably Rafael or Mig35 - 3 years to decide and then another 10 years so total 13 years to complete the numbers
 
Rafale F4 to get upgraded SPECTRA fire control radar avoidance system
Tom Withington, London - Jane's International Defence Review 08 March 2019


p1736564_main.jpg

The SPECTRA self-protection system is to equip the Rafale as part of the forthcoming F4 initiative. This could enhance the system’s capabilities regarding MMW radars. Source: MBDA​

Dassault's Rafale F4 multirole combat aircraft is to include an upgraded version of a Thales/MBDA Rafale Fire-Control Radar Protection and Avoidance System (Système de Protection et d'Évitement des Conduites de Tir du Rafale: SPECTRA) self-protection suite.

SPECTRA is designed to protect the aircraft against radar frequency (RF) and infrared (IR) threats, principally those from radars, and RF/IR-guided air-to-air/surface-to-air missiles (SAMs/AAMs). The ensemble comprises laser, missile, and radar warning receivers, together with a jammer and a chaff/flare dispenser. These are controlled by an electronic warfare management system.

Thales and MBDA have released few details regarding the SPECTRA's RF performance but it is thought to encompass a 2 GHz to 20 GHz waveband. Some sources have stated that this waveband could be as wide as 2 GHz to 40 GHz.

In February the French government awarded Dassault a contract to develop the Rafale F4. In March 2017 the French government authorised development of the F4 configuration, and the first such aircraft is expected to be qualified in 2023, according to Dassault.

Few details have been released regarding the upgrades to SPECTRA under the F4 initiative. There has been speculation that the RF detection frequencies it covers may have increased, possibly detecting RF threats in the Millimetre Wave (MMW) band.

MMW frequencies typically stretch from 30 GHz to 300 GHz, and MMW radars are increasingly attractive for military applications. As the appellation suggests, MMW transmissions have very short wavelengths. For example, frequencies of 50 GHz have wavelengths of 5.99 mm. This allows the generation of highly detailed target imagery, albeit at the expense of range.

For missile designers, such radars can provide an RF seeker with exceptionally sharp target imagery, helping to ensure that the correct target is engaged, and assisting countermeasures rejection.
 
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Bon Plan said:
;) I hope so.

At the end of this news, in a french newspaper (which emphasis about the carrier operations of N Tejas. Congrats ! ), new rumor about a new batch of 36 Rafale.... To wait MMRCA2?
Inde : La version navale du HAL Tejas a franchi un pas décisif en appontant et en décollant d'un porte-avions | Zone Militaire
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Push that 2022 by a year, since RFP has been delayed by a year. RFP is now expected by mid-2020. So mid to end 2023 is the earliest for a contract signature. But with a potential delay of 1 year. Which could push it to 2024. But end 2024 is election year, so possible by mid to end 2025. So for me it's now end 2023 or end 2025.
Picdelamirand-oil said:
Rafale F4 to get upgraded SPECTRA fire control radar avoidance system
Tom Withington, London - Jane's International Defence Review 08 March 2019


p1736564_main.jpg

The SPECTRA self-protection system is to equip the Rafale as part of the forthcoming F4 initiative. This could enhance the system’s capabilities regarding MMW radars. Source: MBDA​

Dassault's Rafale F4 multirole combat aircraft is to include an upgraded version of a Thales/MBDA Rafale Fire-Control Radar Protection and Avoidance System (Système de Protection et d'Évitement des Conduites de Tir du Rafale: SPECTRA) self-protection suite.

SPECTRA is designed to protect the aircraft against radar frequency (RF) and infrared (IR) threats, principally those from radars, and RF/IR-guided air-to-air/surface-to-air missiles (SAMs/AAMs). The ensemble comprises laser, missile, and radar warning receivers, together with a jammer and a chaff/flare dispenser. These are controlled by an electronic warfare management system.

Thales and MBDA have released few details regarding the SPECTRA's RF performance but it is thought to encompass a 2 GHz to 20 GHz waveband. Some sources have stated that this waveband could be as wide as 2 GHz to 40 GHz.

In February the French government awarded Dassault a contract to develop the Rafale F4. In March 2017 the French government authorised development of the F4 configuration, and the first such aircraft is expected to be qualified in 2023, according to Dassault.

Few details have been released regarding the upgrades to SPECTRA under the F4 initiative. There has been speculation that the RF detection frequencies it covers may have increased, possibly detecting RF threats in the Millimetre Wave (MMW) band.

MMW frequencies typically stretch from 30 GHz to 300 GHz, and MMW radars are increasingly attractive for military applications. As the appellation suggests, MMW transmissions have very short wavelengths. For example, frequencies of 50 GHz have wavelengths of 5.99 mm. This allows the generation of highly detailed target imagery, albeit at the expense of range.

For missile designers, such radars can provide an RF seeker with exceptionally sharp target imagery, helping to ensure that the correct target is engaged, and assisting countermeasures rejection.
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Must be the new GaN suite.
 
randomradio said:
Push that 2022 by a year, since RFP has been delayed by a year. RFP is now expected by mid-2020. So mid to end 2023 is the earliest for a contract signature. But with a potential delay of 1 year. Which could push it to 2024. But end 2024 is election year, so possible by mid to end 2025. So for me it's now end 2023 or end 2025.
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it is for MMRCA2, no?
In the meantime a new GtoG order way occur.
 
Bon Plan said:
it is for MMRCA2, no?
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Yes, MMRCA 2.0. It's called MRFA now.

In the meantime a new GtoG order way occur.
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Yeah, we need 36 more. But India is facing a financial crisis now, and we need weapons inductions in other areas which are pending. Especially army's modernisation.

So we may not see any movement here until all 36 from the first deal are complete. But such a delay also means IAF can instead wait for MRFA contract instead. In the meantime, IAF will be getting 12 MKI, 21 Mig-29 and 83 more LCA, apart from 36 Rafale. So the IAF has planned it all out.
 
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If the MMRCA2 contract is pushed back to 2025, that'll mean initial deliveries in 2028. The hole in deliveries will be huge, and it'd make sense to have an interim buy of 36 more Rafale to prevent the IAF from spending six years without new planes.
 
A Person said:
If the MMRCA2 contract is pushed back to 2025, that'll mean initial deliveries in 2028. The hole in deliveries will be huge, and it'd make sense to have an interim buy of 36 more Rafale to prevent the IAF from spending six years without new planes.
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Yeah. I hope that's being considered. But there was some noise earlier that said it's not being considered. Any more foreign jets will come in only through the tender 'cause we suddenly went broke due to a cyclical credit squeeze. And by the time the last of the first batch of 36 are delivered, we will be during contract negotiations for the MRFA, so any plan to buy 36 at that point will not happen.

Anyway we are in the process of getting about 180 new jets by 2028, so I don't think the IAF will be as pressed for aircraft as they were back in 2015, when nothing was on the anvil. We will also have at least 50 MLU'd MKIs by then.
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
48 Rafale for Indonesia this could be exported from India to reduce the price .

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It's too early to say if there's truth in the report. The Indonesian PM dismissed it already.
Prabowo plays down report suggesting Jakarta wants to buy Rafale jets from France
However, when asked for confirmation about the news, Prabowo only laughed and said, “That's probably their [the French government's] wish.”

They are also interested in 2 squadrons of F-16 Block 72 and a squadron of Su-35, in their 2020-24 plan. So I suppose any interest in Rafale will be after 2024.

They are also in the KF-X/IF-X project, which should expectedly be as good or superior to the Rafale, and is for the same number, 48. So I think the Rafale is being used to blackmail the Koreans in the ongoing price negotiations.
 
A Very Bad Choice for Indonesia? Jakarta Considering French Rafale Fighters for Air Force Modernisation

The Indonesian Armed Forces are reportedly considering placing an order for Dassault Rafale ‘4+ Generation’ twin engine medium fighters from France, alongside possible orders for Scorpene Class submarines and Gowind Class corvettes. The deal could potentially see Indonesia become by far the largest foreign operator of the Rafale, with up to 48 of the costly aircraft set to be purchased - at an estimated cost of over $14 billion.

The Rafale could potentially replace older Su-27 heavyweight fighters and F-16C light fighters in frontline service, which though state of the art for their time and retaining many flight performance advantages over then newer French jets are fast ageing and lack up to date sensors and electronics. Despite significant efforts to market the Rafale for export for almost 20 years, France has secured sales for just 96 fighters to India, Egypt and Qatar - all purchases which are strongly suspected by analysts of being politically motivated.

Based on an assessment of previous contracts for Rafale fighters, the aircraft are being marketed for export at approximately $292 million each - approximately 240% the cost of the American F-16V which, although lighter, is thought to have more sophisticated sensors and electronics, and 360% the cost of the Su-35 - a heavyweight platform which outperforms the Rafale across the spectrum.

Indeed, even the new American F-35A stealth fighters being offered to Singapore and other clients are considerably cheaper than the Rafale, at around $200 million each, despite the massive discrepancy in capabilities favouring the American fighter. The Rafale would be acquired at around 150% the price per unit of the F-35. With Indonesia already having placed orders for the Su-35, and neighbouring Singapore set to field both the F-16V and the F-35 - the latter also fielded by Australia - purchasing the Rafale would arguably be the least cost effective option for Indonesian fleet modernisation.

While the Rafale is somewhat capable as a medium weight platform, its cost is considered extreme relative to its capabilities - which is partly a result of its low production run and the general inefficiency of French military aviation relative to the United States, Russia and other more major producers. The introduction of French fighters would further require a complete overhaul of Indonesian infrastructure and equipment, as the aircraft will be completely incompatible with the existing munitions and other assets acquired to operate American and Russian hardware.

Egypt, India and Qatar were all previously operators of the Mirage 2000, the Rafale’s Cold War era predecessor, meaning that all were familiar with operating French jets and had much of the required infrastructure already in place to do so. This could make an Indonesian purchase even more costly than purchases were for the jet’s previous clients.

The Rafale will, upon entering service, be the slowest fighter in the Indonesian fleet and will lack the endurance needed for long range patrols as the Su-35 and Su-30 have, or the low operational cost and high sortie rate of the F-16 for higher intensity combat against nearer adversaries - leaving the Rafale in a precarious middle ground. This is, ultimately, what the aircraft was designed to be - a middle ground jack of all trades for air forces such as France which cannot afford to develop complementary classes of heavy and lightweight classes of fighters as the Americans did with the F-15/F-22 and the F-16/F-35 or the Russians did with the Su-27/Su-57 and the MiG-29/MiG-35.

The U.S. Navy previously fielded a high-low combination with the F-14 and F-18C, before shifting to a medium weight fleet comprised of F-18E fighters to reduce costs, but is again shifting to a high-low combination as great power competition reemerges with the F-X and F-35C combination. France's aircraft will face several performance shortcomings at the high end of the spectrum against heavyweight jets such as the F-15 and Su-35 - but equally will be more costly to operate and have a lower sortie rate than jets at the lower end such as the F-16. For a fleet which already fields complementary classes of heavy and light fighters with the Flanker-Fighting Flacon combination, the Rafale has little place in the Indonesian Air Force.

Ultimately while Indonesia’s Air Force arguably needs more investment in modernisation to follow on from the recent order for 11 Su-35 fighters, the Rafale purchase remains one of the least cost effective means of doing so and ultimately offers no notable advantages over American and Russian classes of fighters which could justify the funds which would be sunk should a purchase be made.

With the U.S. looking to expand the number of operators of the F-35, and with Indonesia having been a major American defence client for over 50 years, approval for sales of these superior jets remains possible and will be much cheaper per unit than the Rafale. Expanded participation in the South Korean KF-X program, which will by the mid 2020s provide fifth generation stealth fighters expected to outperform the French jets, could also prove a much sounder investment.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
A Very Bad Choice for Indonesia? Jakarta Considering French Rafale Fighters for Air Force Modernisation

The Indonesian Armed Forces are reportedly considering placing an order for Dassault Rafale ‘4+ Generation’ twin engine medium fighters from France, alongside possible orders for Scorpene Class submarines and Gowind Class corvettes. The deal could potentially see Indonesia become by far the largest foreign operator of the Rafale, with up to 48 of the costly aircraft set to be purchased - at an estimated cost of over $14 billion.

The Rafale could potentially replace older Su-27 heavyweight fighters and F-16C light fighters in frontline service, which though state of the art for their time and retaining many flight performance advantages over then newer French jets are fast ageing and lack up to date sensors and electronics. Despite significant efforts to market the Rafale for export for almost 20 years, France has secured sales for just 96 fighters to India, Egypt and Qatar - all purchases which are strongly suspected by analysts of being politically motivated.

Based on an assessment of previous contracts for Rafale fighters, the aircraft are being marketed for export at approximately $292 million each - approximately 240% the cost of the American F-16V which, although lighter, is thought to have more sophisticated sensors and electronics, and 360% the cost of the Su-35 - a heavyweight platform which outperforms the Rafale across the spectrum.

Indeed, even the new American F-35A stealth fighters being offered to Singapore and other clients are considerably cheaper than the Rafale, at around $200 million each, despite the massive discrepancy in capabilities favouring the American fighter. The Rafale would be acquired at around 150% the price per unit of the F-35. With Indonesia already having placed orders for the Su-35, and neighbouring Singapore set to field both the F-16V and the F-35- the latter also fielded by Australia - purchasing the Rafale would arguably be the least cost effective option for Indonesian fleet modernisation.

While the Rafale is somewhat capable as a medium weight platform, its cost is considered extreme relative to its capabilities - which is partly a result of its low production run and the general inefficiency of French military aviation relative to the United States, Russia and other more major producers. The introduction of French fighters would further require a complete overhaul of Indonesian infrastructure and equipment, as the aircraft will be completely incompatible with the existing munitions and other assets acquired to operate American and Russian hardware.

Egypt, India and Qatar were all previously operators of the Mirage 2000, the Rafale’s Cold War era predecessor, meaning that all were familiar with operating French jets and had much of the required infrastructure already in place to do so. This could make an Indonesian purchase even more costly than purchases were for the jet’s previous clients.

The Rafale will, upon entering service, be the slowest fighter in the Indonesian fleet and will lack the endurance needed for long range patrols as the Su-35 and Su-30 have, or the low operational cost and high sortie rate of the F-16 for higher intensity combat against nearer adversaries - leaving the Rafale in a precarious middle ground. This is, ultimately, what the aircraft was designed to be - a middle ground jack of all trades for air forces such as France which cannot afford to develop complementary classes of heavy and lightweight classes of fighters as the Americans did with the F-15/F-22 and the F-16/F-35 or the Russians did with the Su-27/Su-57 and the MiG-29/MiG-35.

The U.S. Navy previously fielded a high-low combination with the F-14 and F-18C, before shifting to a medium weight fleet comprised of F-18E fighters to reduce costs, but is again shifting to a high-low combination as great power competition reemerges with the F-X and F-35C combination. France's aircraft will face several performance shortcomings at the high end of the spectrum against heavyweight jets such as the F-15 and Su-35 - but equally will be more costly to operate and have a lower sortie rate than jets at the lower end such as the F-16. For a fleet which already fields complementary classes of heavy and light fighters with the Flanker-Fighting Flacon combination, the Rafale has little place in the Indonesian Air Force.

Ultimately while Indonesia’s Air Force arguably needs more investment in modernisation to follow on from the recent order for 11 Su-35 fighters, the Rafale purchase remains one of the least cost effective means of doing so and ultimately offers no notable advantages over American and Russian classes of fighters which could justify the funds which would be sunk should a purchase be made.

With the U.S. looking to expand the number of operators of the F-35, and with Indonesia having been a major American defence client for over 50 years, approval for sales of these superior jets remains possible and will be much cheaper per unit than the Rafale. Expanded participation in the South Korean KF-X program, which will by the mid 2020s provide fifth generation stealth fighters expected to outperform the French jets, could also prove a much sounder investment.
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The author is pretty ignorant about Rafale, which is nothing new. It's just a pro-Russian article.
 
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