MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
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Don't blame only bureaucrats,the last 11 years of governance too responsibile for this sh!t .
You only have to look at the recent assault rifle tender ( they couldn't decide on the right calibre, didn't include aiming sights and accessories...total farce) to know how 'real world' those requirements usually are. Sci-fi indeed.
And the IA always finds a way to oblige. For example, they rejected the Spike ATGM for failing desert trials, brooded over it and then brought that same weapon a few years later as an emergency procurement.
Meanwhile, Nag, a missile designed specifically to their requirements languishes for orders. Hope the fate of Nag Mk2 and MPATGM is brighter.
Huh. Multiple tenders for 155mm guns have proved inconclusive for over 20 years and you say there were no official programs?
It's by sheer good luck that sleepy OFB babus discovered Bofors FH-77B blueprints buried deep in their records. Otherwise, not a single 155mm gun would've been inducted, barring the M-46 upgrade.
Nuke powered ships are not on the horizon for the IN for the foreseeable future. Even if it were, the IN could have taken a leaf out of the USN's book. The USS Enterprise was fitted with 4 relatively low powered N-reactors based on the tech they had available back in the 1970s.
Are you referring to the one from the previous decade? That's an example of the industry not willing to develop to the IA's standards. Back then, I told @Hellfire that the army needs to set up its own design bureau and create new designs alongside the industry, and that's the only way to get customized weapons. The army eventually got to it, I don't want to make it sound like it was at my recommendation, and created the ASMI machine pistol.
And now the ADB is doing a lot of things like that.
As for caliber, that's how requirements come up, and they keep changing.
Anyway, sights and accessories are not part of a rifle tender, they come in through a separate process.
The version of Spike tested and the version bought were different. The second version was terrain-specific, they are not using it in the desert.
Nag was designed for plains and deserts, and it failed in the desert. No point inducting it in such large numbers. Reducing numbers makes the program cost prohibitive. Now that it's cleared trials, NAMICA Mk2 will become the definitive model for induction.
There's a structure to everything.
There was only 1 and it was canceled. I personally wanted the initial 400 ATHOS to go ahead, so did the IA. Domestic programs were all failures, which led to Kalyani buying a foreign gun company and market its technologies.
You can half-a** the first ship of its kind. You can't half-a** your way against mature technologies. A ship we design today has to be competitive with other ships like Ford class or Type 003/004.
Anyway, that's not the problem. The reactors we have are not marinized for ships.
At 78 kg/s an M88 can have a thrust of 99.45 KN
From Time-Tested Friend: Russia's Su-57E Fifth-Gen Jet to Secure India's Status as a Leading Global Power
It really isn't although the operating costs will be higher. The strike eagle was designed as a replacement for the f-111 aardvark and it was the main ground pounder of the USAF in gulf war 1. The f-15 is perfect replacement for the Jags. The rafale for the mirages and mig-29's.
It's not for lack of trying. Because of the IA's wishy-washy requirements, the DRDO even came up with the MCIWS rifle to cater to multiple calibers. No gun maker in the world has attempted anything like that till date afaik. Both DRDO and OFB have a;lso come with multiple evolved INSAS/AK variants like Excalibur and Trichy which also went nowhere. ASMI was developed by an Army officer and not DRDO per se.
Changing requirements every few years sends painstaking R&D efforts for a toss. That's exactly what happened to the original L70 replacement AAA gun program between 1980s-90s. In the end, the DRDO just gave up. The result is we're still operating ancient ZSU-23+ L-70 guns with cosmetic upgrades. The rate of fire of the latest L&T Sudarshan is sub-par.
Meanwhile, troops on the field rely on the Mk1 eye ball to take aim at targets. There's no new tender for rifle optics yet iirc.
It was either Spike-SR or MR. They were meant for use by infantry. So we probably purchased the tripod mounted/shoulder fired version. They have a common CCD/IIR seeker and launcher unit afaik (except Spike NLOS/LR). I don't see how it'd fare any better than Nag which is proven to work flawlessly out to 2.5 km. Same range as the Spike we bought. Desert trials with Nag were successful (for the umpteenth time) last time I checked.
Not true. There were no clean sheet domestic 155mm guns under development in India before DRDO launched the ATAGS program. Denel G6/Bhim doesn't qualify as it was a foreign gun on an Indian chassis.
An N-carrier would certainly be a first for the IN. So half-a** attempts are par for the course. Look at the Arihant and her sisters- they were mocked in the West as 'baby boomers' for being small in size compared to the Ohio and Vanguards of the world. However, we're now moving towards more competitive designs.
Anyways, the IN has made its peace with not having a N-powered carrier for the next decade or so.
Don't think the IAF has the appetite to operate 2 heavy fighters in the 30-35t range. You'd need two sets of pilots for each which means greater manpower costs as well. Twin engine jets are several times more expensive to operate than single engine jets as a rule of thumb.
If we ever get the F-15, it wil be as our new MRFA. I'm not writing it off yet because of the huge order backlog at Dassault and the need to appease Trump. He's already revoked our GSP trade privileges and Modi will be keen to keep Trump off our backs, playing the balancing act with Russia.
The f-15EX just has too much RCS. Huge doubts it can fit in the same role as the rafale. If the Americans offer us the aim-174b (doubtful) f-15EX might become the better deal.
DRDO's not been a good rifle developer. This is something best left to smaller players.
That has a lot to do with DRDO's inflexible nature. It's slowly changing.
I believe all manner of sights have been procured for SIG716. Perhaps in the process of procurement.
We bought LR.
There was no official program, but it was attempted. That's how we got 2 Catapult designs. We mainly tried to Indianize foreign guns. DRDO then gave up on jugaad and decided to make their own stuff.
We can half-a** SSBNs, even SSNs, 'cause we plan on building many. But we only plan on 1 carrier, we can't half-a** that. Maybe we can once we decide to make a family of 4-6, then we can relegate the half-a**ed one for training.
More than that.
We may have to follow the Chinese in their footsteps; Vik 2 for now, an IEPS-powered Vishal a decade later and then nuke. The nuke one could be bigger and in greater numbers.
Well, I have given up.
Maybe one day we will build robust processes good enough that the outcomes would depend on the process and not people.
We should not be too serious about these non-serious structures (PSU+MoD+ Bureaucracy + auditors).
That's why I support privatization of defense. Both the forces and DRDO are headed in that direction and the govt is supporting them as they also want to cutail the bureaucracy.
@randomradio i said this to you earlier that goi will cancell mmrca. And u said lca isnt MMRCA replacement ( yeas, you are correct in this) and MMRCA won't be cancelled.
Who ever be part of this decision are nothing but 21st century VK Krishnamenon. He sabotaged Belgian rifle procurement in past and we lost war to china, and the reincarnated VK Krishnamenons are cancelling MMRCA, hope Chinese will not take the opportunities now.
This is a normal part of the overall process. Since the setting up of a new doctrine and the finalization of MRFA and AMCA specs in 2022, they are gonna review these programs before going ahead. They need to figure out if these programs are enough or they need more, like Su-57/FGFA. There's Ghatak too.
I think this is the relevant part:
Remains to be seen what they will suggest (and whether IAF/MoD decide to follow their suggestions). Either way, one thing is for sure - MRFA isn't happening anytime soon, which I would say was to be expected.
I think at some level, the aspects I talked about previously on the forum several times, namely:
- Evolution of Tejas Mk2 design from a light fighter to a medium one comparable to MRFA contenders like F-21/Gripen E, which reduces the number of roles we need a new MRFA for.
- Advent of Loyal Wingmen & IUSAV programs which can reduce number of manned platforms needed to pursue a given air campaign.
- Advent of Integrated Rocket Forces concept which can reduce the number of sorties (and by extension, number of airframes) needed to place X amount of ordnance on a given target. There is evidence that CDS has already adopted this view:
- Whether spending $30+ Bn on a foreign non-stealth platform makes sense in this day & age.
- Last but not least: whether there are better ways to spend that money in order to achieve similar or even better effects given all the new techs that emerged & matured since requirement of 100+ MRCA was drafted for the first time over 23 years ago.
...are indeed being studied.
In the end, I won't be surprised if we end up just buying 36 more Rafales off the shelf, cancelling the rest of the requirement and going all in with Tejas Mk2, AMCA, CATS & Super MKI.
A stop-gap purchase of a foreign 5th gen might become a consideration at some point in the next few years once PAF inducts J-35, but after spending a good 18-24 months corresponding with available vendors (Su-57/F-35A) we'd likely reach the conclusion that procuring a small batch of 5th gen jets is extremely expensive if we don't plan on going all in with that platform.
But it's gonna have to be expense that we need to bear if we don't want to cede the look-first/shoot-first advantage to PAF for a full decade-plus until AMCA arrives.
So it might be wise to keep the budget saved by not pursuing MRFA in a Fixed Deposit somewhere till the time comes to make a knee-jerk purchase some time late this decade, because we know all too well that day would definitely come.
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Nothing new here. This report is quoting ID-RW, who recycles old reports as their own to keep things interesting.
The actual MoU was two year back and another report quoting airforce last year about Astra and SAAW integration.