And in 20 years you will have only managed to make today's technology work, at best.
In 20 years french will not have any production line of fighter aircraft. While we will have multiple. The French market has shrunk too small to make anything viable.
I was looking at the French Army/AF medium helicopter requirement which is being filled by Airbus H160M (To replace Alouette to Panther). The required number shrunk from 420 to ~180 !. That's like 5-6 years of production of HAL ALH. Our LUH requirement is 600+. (And safran engine powers them all!). Your entire industry already depends on us and it will only increase in time. So it's in your interest to give us the best offer.
Don't give us the patronizing lecture on what's good to us by selling us something. We have seen that movie for too long. From the arrival of Saint Thomas to that missionary who went to Andaman. Anyway, thank you for your concern.
Engine works, but cannot be used. Just like a paper boat mady by kid, it floats but cannot be used for transportation.
Our 152 Rafale replace 582 old planes, and yet never before has the French air force been as strong as it is today.
Engine works but it need fine tuning and certification. Kaveri reached required performance parameters.
There is no plane which can use Kaveri today because LCA got overweight.
Read up before making childish posts.
I see the entire argument between you two @Ashwin as childish & endlessly repetitive, apart from side swipes both of you have taken at each other . The kind of responses one would expect when one engages randomradio or Sancho. Certainly not what expects from members of your stature.
The French like any other power with some sort of a monopoly over technology would definitely milk it for all its worth or at least try to. That's what they're doing to India. I don't see why it should come as a surprise.
As far as India goes, we'd try to maximize our gains thru ceaseless bargaining ( I doubt if that's the right term. It's more haggling than bargaining. Something that's second nature to the Indians. And the Chinese. Probably one of the reasons why the Indians & the Chinese never came to some sort of an agreement on the LAC. And neither will.It's something of a novelty to the French & other Europeans as they aren't used to such tactics except maybe when they come upto it from a Jew. Hence the Jews out there have the kind of reputation they do) .
The French wouldn't be magnanimous enough to come up with the kind of offer they did if they didn't suspect India was closer to achieving it's objectives.
Consider the case of RR. This very same RR & Her Majesty's Government ( HMG) denied India the engines we required for our indigenous program of developing our own fighter aircraft - The Marut. Eventually the engines which came were underpowered & killed the entire project. There were proposals to launch an indigenous program for development of an engine too for which funding never materialised.
Today the same RR is on the verge of concluding a complete program with ToT & IPR with the GoI & what's more both HMG & RR are actively courting the GoI for other big ticket projects as well.
In view of all this, I doubt the French can afford to be impervious to these developments. We can expect another round of hard nosed bargaining / haggling before both parties conclude a mutually beneficial & satisfying agreement ( or so I hope).
P. S - Moreover, as things stand & in view of the diminished threats in Europe ( I don't see the Russians threatening the peace in Europe in the same way the Chinese are doing so in Asia. It's more of a case of Russia's reactions & it's more to do with the US / EU & NATO's bid to interfere in their traditional sphere of influence .If you leave them alone, they wouldn't be as combative as they're today. Having said that, most of what's happening today is Putin's doing. Unlike the Chinese where what Xi is undertaking today is an article of faith with the CCP. You take Putin out of the equation & Russia will fall in line.) , the need for cutting edge equipment in defense would automatically see reduction & that would mean reduced defence budgets & expenditure. Which in turn translates to reduced R&D budgets.
I doubt if there would be a 7th Gen Fighter program exclusively in Europe for the Europeans with the same number participants as there are today for the 6th Gen FA program if there's prolonged peace in Europe for another 3 decades & more. What this means is short of a major reorganisation of existing defence companies in Europe involving merger & acquisitions, in all likelihood the 7th gen FA program would definitely see enhanced non European participation primarily from Asia for that's where the centre of gravity will shift.
It needs total rework, thats why they dumped it. Even DRDO people doesn't wants it anymore. Utter failure product,no airforce will invest an engine which gives only a desired dry thrust, en engine which gives non steady wet thrust. Asper reports it even an over weight engine.
First simple step for succes is learn from your mistake, but to learn from your mistake you need to first your mistake & failure a gentle quality we most indians are not having with us.
Bro, you forget FCAS.... A common French, German, SPanish project leaded by France.
1st prototyp in 2026 nearly.
Preserial 2035. FOC in 2040.
Your common french bashing is making you blind.
Your Mig21, 27 and Jaguar are of a low efficiency.
What remain in the IAF order of battle : Mig29, M2000, SU30. now Rafale. So nearly 400 planes. For a so big country...
PS : The french air force is not only made of the already delivered 150+ rafale. Add 30+ M2000-5, 80 M2000 D
Wrong. The high altitude problem was not solved. As the noise vibrations in full AB.
I don't know if the FCAS will be developed, it may very well be a failure, but even then I would bet more on a Dassault aircraft in 2040 than on the AMCA.
Which was the point. The market has shrunk so small that you can no longer afford to build anything alone.
I don't know if you are deflecting or a basic comprehension problem. Was talking about market size.
Probably true. If you go by the history Dassault exiting FCAS is also a certainty.
Says the french who has $1 billion + offset pending.
No, it's not the size of the market mainly.
It's the R&D effort that is, in peace time, difficult to assume alone for a medium country. We are speaking of 60 billions €....
Thank you for the "basic comprehension".....
The french market is now 225 birds. This is the actual "white book" target.
Add to that the export market.
I was speaking of the level where SAFRAN found the engine.... Do you have a basic comprefension syndrome ?Says the french who has $1 billion + offset pending.
For France weapons are not a market. All the necessary weapons are either bought from allies in very special cases (AWACS for example) or must be developed and produced in France whatever the price.
For example, do you think there is a market for nuclear weapons? And do you think the Megajoule Laser is a profitable project?
Then it's not forbidden to try to export the weapons produced in this way to increase the quantity produced, which reduces the recurrent cost of the weapons, but it's an opportunistic approach.
In this model the French state pays for everything and the exports are made at the recurrent cost for the standard product plus the cost of the modifications requested by the customers.
The French arms industry cannot therefore be in deficit, or go bankrupt and market size is not a relevant concept for it.
If private industry leads AMCA, then it will go fine. If HAL leads it, then it will not be as bad as LCA, but it will definitely not follow schedule.
That's not impressive. 120m for empty weight and a bit of fuel? That's totally insufficient.
What matters is if the SH can take off with sufficient payload (2 bombs/missiles + 4 missiles) and full fuel, including full drop tanks. Otherwise it's a lemon.
The Mig-29K can do 38000lbs from 100m. And 46000 lbs from 200m.
F/A-18 Super Hornet Is Now Undergoing Ski Jump Launch Trials For The Indian Navy
Boeing has been flying an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet off a ground-based ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland. This is part of a demonstration effort for the Indian Navy to show that the aircraft can operate from short take-off but arrested recovery configured (STOBAR) aircraft carriers, such as the INS Vikramaditya and the future INS Vikrant.
Indian defense analyst Saurabh Joshi was among the first to reveal the flight testing in a series of tweets on Aug. 19, 2020. The Chicago-headquartered plane maker subsequently confirmed that this ski jump demonstration program is presently taking place at Patuxent River, though it is not clear when exactly it began. The naval air station has a ground-based ski jump that it used during testing of the short and vertical takeoff and landing capable F-35B variant of the Joint Strike Fighter.
"Boeing and the U.S. Navy are in the beginning phases of operating an F/A-18 Super Hornet from a ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River to demonstrate it is STOBAR compliant for the Indian Navy," Justin Gibson, a Boeing spokesperson, told The War Zone. "Boeing completed extensive analysis and more than 150 flight simulations on F/A-18 compatibility with Indian aircraft carriers, and while our assessment has shown the Block III Super Hornet is very capable of launching off a ski jump, this is the next step in demonstrating that capability. More details will be released upon the conclusion of the test demonstration."
USN
A US Navy F/A-18E Super Hornet about to takeoff from an American supercarrier using a catapult.
The company had previously announced plans to begin this ski jump flight test program in February. It had first disclosed that it was doing simulation work on the Super Hornet's ability to operate from a STOBAR carrier in 2017.
"We've done a lot of simulation work with the Indian Navy to better understand their requirements and we fill comfortable that the Super Hornet can operate from all their carriers, both the ones fielded today and the ones in the future," Dan Gillian, Vice President of the Super Hornet program, said in an interview with Indian defense news and analysis site LiveFist in 2017. "We think we can move around the deck, be very mission capable with a relevant weapons load-out and fuel load-out to give the Navy what they need... The Super Hornet as built today can operate from Indian carriers."
McDonnell Douglas, which developed the original F/A-18 Hornet and was subsequently acquired by Boeing, had also previously conducted ski jump tests with that aircraft at the tail end of the Cold War. That testing showed that with as little as a nine-degree incline, the total required takeoff roll for the Hornet could be cut in half, though it's unclear what the jet's gross weight had to be to achieve this performance. Ski jumps generally increase the takeoff performance of combat jets in the absence of catapults and also provide an added margin of safety.
Public Domain
An F/A-18A Hornet takes off from a ground-based ski jump during a test in the late 1980s.
Since at least 2016, the Indian Navy has been working to acquire a fleet of at least 57 new fighter jets to complement its existing MiG-29K Fulcrums under the Multi-Role Carrier-Borne Fighter (MRCBF) program. There have been numerous reports over the years that the Indians have been disappointed in the performance of their navalized Fulcrums.
The Super Hornet is now competing against the MiG-29K, as well as the naval version of the French-made Dassault Rafale and a variant of the Swedish Gripen. The Indian Air Force notably took delivery of the first of its land-based Rafale variants last month.
The Indian Navy had also previously rejected plans for a carrier-based version of the domestically designed Tejas, with complaints that the design was overweight, though the development of that aircraft has continued, since then. In January, the prototype landed on and took off from the INS Vikramaditya for the first time.
Being able to operate from a STOBAR carrier is a key requirement for the Indian Navy, which presently only has the one carrier, the INS Vikramaditya, which is in the configuration. A second STOBAR-configured flattop, the future INS Vikrant, and indigenous design, is also under construction.
Indian Navy
The future INS Vikrant in 2015.
The Indian government has expressed interest in acquiring a catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) carrier in the past. Last year it emerged that BAE Systems had proposed a design based on the U.K. Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth class. The HMS Queen Elizabeth and her sister ship the HMS Prince of Wales are both short-take off and vertical landing (STOVL) types with ski jumps, but no arresting system. It's not clear whether the ship that BAE pitched to the Indians is STOBAR or CATOBAR derivative. There were CATOBAR variants of the Queen Elizabeth design among the initial proposals to the Royal Navy.
What is clear is that the Indians have plans to expand their carrier fleets, which would also require additional carrier-based aircraft. Proving that the Super Hornet, which is already CATOBAR capable, is also able to fly from STOBAR carriers could give it an advantage in the competition as India would not necessarily need to acquire multiple types to operate from different types of carriers in the future. The MiG-29K, for instance, cannot fly from CATOBAR carriers, for instance.
The Super Hornet, in its latest advanced Block III configuration, which you can read more about in detail in this past War Zone piece, is also in the running for a separate Indian Air Force fighter jet mega-contract, which is looking to acquire 126 new fighters for that service. A deal with the Indian Navy could further tip the scales toward the F/A-18E/F due to the cost benefits that India could realize from logistics, infrastructure, and supply chain commonality.
Whatever happens, it will very exciting to learn more about how the Super Hornet has been faring in these ski jump tests at Patuxent River.
www.thedrive.com
Boeing has been flying an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet off a ground-based ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland. This is part of a demonstration effort for the Indian Navy to show that the aircraft can operate from short take-off but arrested recovery configured (STOBAR) aircraft carriers, such as the INS Vikramaditya and the future INS Vikrant.
Indian defense analyst Saurabh Joshi was among the first to reveal the flight testing in a series of tweets on Aug. 19, 2020. The Chicago-headquartered plane maker subsequently confirmed that this ski jump demonstration program is presently taking place at Patuxent River, though it is not clear when exactly it began. The naval air station has a ground-based ski jump that it used during testing of the short and vertical takeoff and landing capable F-35B variant of the Joint Strike Fighter.
"Boeing and the U.S. Navy are in the beginning phases of operating an F/A-18 Super Hornet from a ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River to demonstrate it is STOBAR compliant for the Indian Navy," Justin Gibson, a Boeing spokesperson, told The War Zone. "Boeing completed extensive analysis and more than 150 flight simulations on F/A-18 compatibility with Indian aircraft carriers, and while our assessment has shown the Block III Super Hornet is very capable of launching off a ski jump, this is the next step in demonstrating that capability. More details will be released upon the conclusion of the test demonstration."
USN
A US Navy F/A-18E Super Hornet about to takeoff from an American supercarrier using a catapult.
The company had previously announced plans to begin this ski jump flight test program in February. It had first disclosed that it was doing simulation work on the Super Hornet's ability to operate from a STOBAR carrier in 2017.
"We've done a lot of simulation work with the Indian Navy to better understand their requirements and we fill comfortable that the Super Hornet can operate from all their carriers, both the ones fielded today and the ones in the future," Dan Gillian, Vice President of the Super Hornet program, said in an interview with Indian defense news and analysis site LiveFist in 2017. "We think we can move around the deck, be very mission capable with a relevant weapons load-out and fuel load-out to give the Navy what they need... The Super Hornet as built today can operate from Indian carriers."
McDonnell Douglas, which developed the original F/A-18 Hornet and was subsequently acquired by Boeing, had also previously conducted ski jump tests with that aircraft at the tail end of the Cold War. That testing showed that with as little as a nine-degree incline, the total required takeoff roll for the Hornet could be cut in half, though it's unclear what the jet's gross weight had to be to achieve this performance. Ski jumps generally increase the takeoff performance of combat jets in the absence of catapults and also provide an added margin of safety.
Public Domain
An F/A-18A Hornet takes off from a ground-based ski jump during a test in the late 1980s.
Since at least 2016, the Indian Navy has been working to acquire a fleet of at least 57 new fighter jets to complement its existing MiG-29K Fulcrums under the Multi-Role Carrier-Borne Fighter (MRCBF) program. There have been numerous reports over the years that the Indians have been disappointed in the performance of their navalized Fulcrums.
The Super Hornet is now competing against the MiG-29K, as well as the naval version of the French-made Dassault Rafale and a variant of the Swedish Gripen. The Indian Air Force notably took delivery of the first of its land-based Rafale variants last month.
The Indian Navy had also previously rejected plans for a carrier-based version of the domestically designed Tejas, with complaints that the design was overweight, though the development of that aircraft has continued, since then. In January, the prototype landed on and took off from the INS Vikramaditya for the first time.
Being able to operate from a STOBAR carrier is a key requirement for the Indian Navy, which presently only has the one carrier, the INS Vikramaditya, which is in the configuration. A second STOBAR-configured flattop, the future INS Vikrant, and indigenous design, is also under construction.
Indian Navy
The future INS Vikrant in 2015.
The Indian government has expressed interest in acquiring a catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) carrier in the past. Last year it emerged that BAE Systems had proposed a design based on the U.K. Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth class. The HMS Queen Elizabeth and her sister ship the HMS Prince of Wales are both short-take off and vertical landing (STOVL) types with ski jumps, but no arresting system. It's not clear whether the ship that BAE pitched to the Indians is STOBAR or CATOBAR derivative. There were CATOBAR variants of the Queen Elizabeth design among the initial proposals to the Royal Navy.
What is clear is that the Indians have plans to expand their carrier fleets, which would also require additional carrier-based aircraft. Proving that the Super Hornet, which is already CATOBAR capable, is also able to fly from STOBAR carriers could give it an advantage in the competition as India would not necessarily need to acquire multiple types to operate from different types of carriers in the future. The MiG-29K, for instance, cannot fly from CATOBAR carriers, for instance.
The Super Hornet, in its latest advanced Block III configuration, which you can read more about in detail in this past War Zone piece, is also in the running for a separate Indian Air Force fighter jet mega-contract, which is looking to acquire 126 new fighters for that service. A deal with the Indian Navy could further tip the scales toward the F/A-18E/F due to the cost benefits that India could realize from logistics, infrastructure, and supply chain commonality.
Whatever happens, it will very exciting to learn more about how the Super Hornet has been faring in these ski jump tests at Patuxent River.
F/A-18 Super Hornet Is Now Undergoing Ski Jump Launch Trials For The Indian Navy
The Boeing fighter jet is vying for an Indian Navy contract and that service only has aircraft carriers with ski jumps at present.
www.thedrive.com