Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

[Innominate]

Not surprised. Rafale is underpowered even Safran CEO said it. It's a much heavier fighter from the A model but it still uses the same engines yet somehow it can SC with a tank and 4 missiles.

Good for SH showing it can take off with a heavy load.

 

[randomradio]

Not surprised. Rafale is underpowered even Safran CEO said it. It's a much heavier fighter from the A model but it still uses the same engines yet somehow it can SC with a tank and 4 missiles.

Good for SH showing it can take off with a heavy load.

The standard SH (0.94 TWR) is even worse than the standard Rafale M (0.99). The one meant for the IN will come with new 116KN engines, pushing the SH's TWR to 1.11. Hence the "upsized" loadout. But this is the limit of the SH's performance superiority over the Rafale. It falls short in all other important parameters like acceleration, climb, turn, Gs etc.

Rafale will easily match the SH's payload performance if it's upgraded to 8.3T engines.

I think you should actually read up on the Rafale A.

 

[Adm_Kenobi]

The standard SH (0.94 TWR) is even worse than the standard Rafale M (0.99). The one meant for the IN will come with new 116KN engines, pushing the SH's TWR to 1.11. Hence the "upsized" loadout. But this is the limit of the SH's performance superiority over the Rafale. It falls short in all other important parameters like acceleration, climb, turn, Gs etc.

Rafale will easily match the SH's payload performance if it's upgraded to 8.3T engines.

I think you should actually read up on the Rafale A.

It's baseless to compare the numbers for upgraded engines when the jets IN will be buying are going to have the same 33k pound and 44k pound engines. IN won't be funding the EPE, nor does the Rafale M come with the 16.6T engines.
And can you explain to me how Rafale M has a longer range than SH ? (Assume same load and drag for weapons)

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The aerodynamics of the F-18 SH are absolutely deplorable, so the aircraft had load separation problems that endangered the aircraft. Boeing solved the problem by orienting the attachment points in a different direction than the aircraft's heading, which is why I often say that this aircraft has the aerodynamics of a snowplow skier.

snowplow skier​

 

[randomradio]

It's baseless to compare the numbers for upgraded engines when the jets IN will be buying are going to have the same 33k pound and 44k pound engines. IN won't be funding the EPE, nor does the Rafale M come with the 16.6T engines.
And can you explain to me how Rafale M has a longer range than SH ? (Assume same load and drag for weapons)

The 116KN version is gonna be the standard fit for all USN SHs and Growlers beginning 2024. It's even been contracted.

U.S. NAVY TO UPGRADE ITS F/A-18 SUPER HORNET AND EA-18G GROWLER AIRCRAFT WITH NEW MORE POWERFUL ENGINES

UNITED STATES NAVY TO UPGRADE ITS F/A-18 SUPER HORNET AND EA-18G GROWLER AIRCRAFT WITH NEW MORE POWERFUL ENGINES

theaviationgeekclub.com

The Rafale's 83KN engine is still an enigma. As long as it exists, it will be an option. If it's like the Rafale N, then no.

Rafale M outranging the SH is public information. Both due to superior fuel fraction and superior aerodynamics.

 

[Tatvamasi]

The 116KN version is gonna be the standard fit for all USN SHs and Growlers beginning 2024. It's even been contracted.

U.S. NAVY TO UPGRADE ITS F/A-18 SUPER HORNET AND EA-18G GROWLER AIRCRAFT WITH NEW MORE POWERFUL ENGINES

UNITED STATES NAVY TO UPGRADE ITS F/A-18 SUPER HORNET AND EA-18G GROWLER AIRCRAFT WITH NEW MORE POWERFUL ENGINES

theaviationgeekclub.com

The Rafale's 83KN engine is still an enigma. As long as it exists, it will be an option. If it's like the Rafale N, then no.

Rafale M outranging the SH is public information. Both due to superior fuel fraction and superior aerodynamics.

Simply wrong reporting. This order is for GE-414-400 which is the same they are using from 2004.

US Navy did not order EPE version. Increase in thrust comes with reduction of engine life and other issues. They did not fund the full development.

If not show some official source.

22,000 pound = 98kn

F414 Engine

The U.S. Navy has used the F414 engine to power their forces for over 30 years. Discover more about the advanced and versatile F414 engine with GE Aerospace.

www.geaviation.com

 

[randomradio]

Simply wrong reporting. This order is for GE-414-400 which is the same they are using from 2004.

US Navy did not order EPE version. Increase in thrust comes with reduction of engine life and other issues. They did not fund the full development.

If not show some official source.

22,000 pound = 98kn

"Full rate production" is mentioned there, which means it's a new engine. Or it wouldn't make sense to include it, nor consider it a "new engine". Nor would the numbers be so small, as though it's just beginning to graduate from LRIP.

GE began the EPE demonstrator and Enhanced Engine for India's MMRCA, which was an upgrade over the USN's EDE demonstrator program. So both are the same engine. The USN could continue with 98KN thrust, for them the enhanced electrical power could be of prime importance. As for what IN chooses in the end, we need to see. All we have seen is the trials of existing models, not a future ISE-derived jet.

The engine before EDE/EPE was a 7 stage engine, EDE/EPE are 6 stage engines. Likely what the contract is referring to.

F414 Engine

The U.S. Navy has used the F414 engine to power their forces for over 30 years. Discover more about the advanced and versatile F414 engine with GE Aerospace.

www.geaviation.com

Official sources are not gospel, so we gotta be careful. The F414-INS6 specs are actually for the F404-IN20.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

The 116KN version is gonna be the standard fit for all USN SHs and Growlers beginning 2024. It's even been contracted.

U.S. NAVY TO UPGRADE ITS F/A-18 SUPER HORNET AND EA-18G GROWLER AIRCRAFT WITH NEW MORE POWERFUL ENGINES

UNITED STATES NAVY TO UPGRADE ITS F/A-18 SUPER HORNET AND EA-18G GROWLER AIRCRAFT WITH NEW MORE POWERFUL ENGINES

theaviationgeekclub.com

The Rafale's 83KN engine is still an enigma. As long as it exists, it will be an option. If it's like the Rafale N, then no.

Rafale M outranging the SH is public information. Both due to superior fuel fraction and superior aerodynamics.

That is a 2017 article.

"Boeing doesn’t expect the Navy’s Super Hornet upgrade efforts to end with the Block III program. The most significant item that the company is still looking at is the integration of an improved version of the jet’s General Electric F414 engine."

This is from a newer source. Here's Where Boeing Aims To Take The Super Hornet In The Decades To Come

 

[Ankit Kumar]

"General Electric Co., Lynn, Massachusetts, is awarded $24,891,442 for modification P00020 to a previously awarded firm-fixed-price contract (N00019-17-C-0047) to procure 72 F/A-18 F-414-GE-400 install engines devices for the Navy (24); and the government of Kuwait (48)."

The lastest contract officially signed. Contracts for June 20, 2019

 

[randomradio]

That is a 2017 article.

"Boeing doesn’t expect the Navy’s Super Hornet upgrade efforts to end with the Block III program. The most significant item that the company is still looking at is the integration of an improved version of the jet’s General Electric F414 engine."

This is from a newer source. Here's Where Boeing Aims To Take The Super Hornet In The Decades To Come

A different news from 2017 said the USN had started a study to take the engine beyond EDE/EPE. So the 2024-25 timeline could be for the Growler instead of the SH.

The problem with a contract in 2019 is B2s were being delivered at the time.

 

[Ashwin]

"Full rate production" is mentioned there, which means it's a new engine. Or it wouldn't make sense to include it, nor consider it a "new engine". Nor would the numbers be so small, as though it's just beginning to graduate from LRIP.

GE began the EPE demonstrator and Enhanced Engine for India's MMRCA, which was an upgrade over the USN's EDE demonstrator program. So both are the same engine. The USN could continue with 98KN thrust, for them the enhanced electrical power could be of prime importance. As for what IN chooses in the end, we need to see. All we have seen is the trials of existing models, not a future ISE-derived jet.

The engine before EDE/EPE was a 7 stage engine, EDE/EPE are 6 stage engines. Likely what the contract is referring to.



Official sources are not gospel, so we gotta be careful. The F414-INS6 specs are actually for the F404-IN20.

Full rate production only means they restarted production to its maximum capacity.

As usual heavy dose of conjectures delivered with high confidence.

If SH with extra thrust is coming to USN and is offered to IN it would in the headlines.

By dismissing offical GE website you are not doing any favours. Why not give a better source ?

 

[randomradio]

Full rate production only means they restarted production to its maximum capacity.

As usual heavy dose of conjectures delivered with high confidence.

If SH with extra thrust is coming to USN and is offered to IN it would in the headlines.

By dismissing offical GE website you are not doing any favours. Why not give a better source ?

Boeing has always offered the EPE to the IAF and IN for SHs, that's very well know. It's not a conjecture. Multiple interviews have already mentioned that.

As for the USN, there is a Growler "enhancement" program meant to deliver before 2025. So we don't know the scale of the upgrade.

 

[Ashwin]

Boeing has always offered the EPE to the IAF and IN for SHs, that's very well know. It's not a conjecture. Multiple interviews have already mentioned that.

As for the USN, there is a Growler "enhancement" program meant to deliver before 2025. So we don't know the scale of the upgrade.

The question here is whether USN already order F414 EPE in 2017 and that has been offered to India.

Not "if it's been offered". Of course, any country can choose to go with it if they think it's worth the integration cost and other downsides.

The 116KN version is gonna be the standard fit for all USN SHs and Growlers beginning 2024. It's even been contracted.

How is this not known when it's been contracted according to you?

 

[randomradio]

The question here is did USN already order F414 EPE in 2017 and that has been offered to India.

EPE, definitely no. EDE, possibly. Or perhaps a hybrid between the original and EDE. It's all because of the words in the article. Normally such words are not used unless part of a development. The original's production never ended, it was always in FRP, and the numbers actually reduced after the USN reduced their orders.

Not "if it's been ordered". Of course, any country can choose to go with it if they think it's worth the integration cost.

Look, the thing about the US is something could already be operational, without us knowing about it via "official" sources which state it in print that you can read about via a link. Sometimes it's not that easy. What's public is generally what's normally operated across the board. But if there's an SH and Growler squadron out there operating a new engine, we would not know about it unless they want it advertised. But it's such articles that end up giving clues. 28 engines are good enough for 10 SHs and 4 Growlers.

Similarly, the SH was upgraded with GaN EW suites back in 2016. While we had a general idea back then, with some small clues, like someone important claiming it's the most advanced EW suite or something of the sort, we are seeing it "in print" with "GaN" only more recently. Similarly it took until 2018 to confirm "in print" through "open source" that the EL/M-2084 and MF-STAR were actually GaN radars. Engines also work the same way, 'cause of its importance.

 

[KUNAL BISWAS]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1548414260086448128

Nothing on official portal but due to lift of Vikrant only F18 makes it..

 

[KUNAL BISWAS]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1548414260086448128

Re posting as i deleted my tweet..

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Boeing looks to India for Super Hornet success after European setbacks | Shephard

Boeing is setting its sights on finally securing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Block III export success with a new campaign in India.

www.shephardmedia.com

 

[Ashwin]

EPE, definitely no. EDE, possibly.

Im confused, then what do you mean by these statements. Which 116kn engine are you referring to?

The 116KN version is gonna be the standard fit for all USN SHs and Growlers beginning 2024. It's even been contracted.

The standard SH (0.94 TWR) is even worse than the standard Rafale M (0.99). The one meant for the IN will come with new 116KN engines, pushing the SH's TWR to 1.11. Hence the "upsized" loadout. But this is the limit of the SH's performance superiority over the Rafale. It falls short in all other important parameters like acceleration, climb, turn, Gs etc.

Look, the thing about the US is something could already be operational, without us knowing about it via "official" sources which state it in print that you can read about via a link. Sometimes it's not that easy. What's public is generally what's normally operated across the board. But if there's an SH and Growler squadron out there operating a new engine, we would not know about it unless they want it advertised. But it's such articles that end up giving clues. 28 engines are good enough for 10 SHs and 4 Growlers.

Similarly, the SH was upgraded with GaN EW suites back in 2016. While we had a general idea back then, with some small clues, like someone important claiming it's the most advanced EW suite or something of the sort, we are seeing it "in print" with "GaN" only more recently. Similarly it took until 2018 to confirm "in print" through "open source" that the EL/M-2084 and MF-STAR were actually GaN radars. Engines also work the same way, 'cause of its importance.

Thus the word "conjecture".

 

[randomradio]

Im confused, then what do you mean by these statements. Which 116kn engine are you referring to?




Thus the word "conjecture".

The EDE, 98KN, or a hybrid between -400 and EDE has been contracted, as per the article. Very likely to be the reason why Boeing has been going around bragging the SH is cheaper to operate than the F-16. It could also be related to the -400K development for Korea.

All older -400s can also be retrofitted with EDE tech when the fan, turbines and compressor stages come in for replacements during overhaul. Which, again, is very likely why SH operation cost has reduced drastically.

116KN is what's been offered to the IN. It's basically the EDE with a bigger fan because higher airflow is needed for the extra thrust.

 

[Sathya]

The EDE, 98KN, or a hybrid between -400 and EDE has been contracted, as per the article. Very likely to be the reason why Boeing has been going around bragging the SH is cheaper to operate than the F-16. It could also be related to the -400K development for Korea.

All older -400s can also be retrofitted with EDE tech when the fan, turbines and compressor stages come in for replacements during overhaul. Which, again, is very likely why SH operation cost has reduced drastically.

116KN is what's been offered to the IN. It's basically the EDE with a bigger fan because higher airflow is needed for the extra thrust.

Sorry to ask this.. & pardon my ignorance if u have already given link...

Will u please post the recent link where 116 kn engine is offered.

Few things I remember, new conformal fuel tank was part of USN upgrade which was dropped due to some issues.

And extra fuel tank was required for newer engines I think. Otherwise range would suffer with more powerful engines. Especially in Stobar configuration.


After that ( dropping of conformal fuel tank)
I haven't seen any news about more powerful engine upgrade.